Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there.
SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway.
Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear?
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way.
Strevi wrote: » So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ?
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ?
NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? As I see it, if you're using a tracker in any capacity - you're invested enough in the game to do everything else too. And if you're super casual who barely does anything in the game, you'd probably not be using any trackers. Obviously there'll be exceptions to that kind of rule on both ends of the spectrum though.
Strevi wrote: » That should convince Steven to allow them, isn't it?
koltovince wrote: » Adding my two cents into the pile here; I personally would like DPS meters for personal use, but I think they should follow the FFXIV route of having a rule against using the meters against other players with a moderation team to enforce this practice. That being said, for Ashes in particular I don't know how well a DPS meter would be employed. From what I understand the leveling progression of ones class will be very slow in Ashes, and it isn't the only source of progression a player could have. Open PVP for instance can happen against players of varying levels, and it isn't like every dungeon/raid instance is going to be the same level, and neither will the open instance dungeons. The only time DPS meters would start to make sense is at endgame but by that point everyone will be at a different level of gear and playstyle. In addition its hard to measure classes that take on a buff/nontrinity role within the game. How are DPS meters going to treat bards as they buff everyone but themselves? How will summoners be treated when they are mostly specced into buffing pets into trinity roles. These are all minor factors but they can all add up. Basically, if we get a DPS meter, but the DPS meters are always inaccurate due to level and class differences with the expected numbers of "Good DPS" being widely ranging, is it worth even having one in the game? I would love to have one, but if say my 10k DPS on a lvl 30 summoner seems good but a ranger at lvl 20 can pop 15k DPS, how am I suppose to compare when there are so many differences?
Strevi wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? As I see it, if you're using a tracker in any capacity - you're invested enough in the game to do everything else too. And if you're super casual who barely does anything in the game, you'd probably not be using any trackers. Obviously there'll be exceptions to that kind of rule on both ends of the spectrum though. That should convince Steven to allow them, isn't it?
Deadfool wrote: » Pappasalt wrote: » I decided to check out the forums, why is there a 176 page discussion on a dps meter? lol. Why would there be a discussion on having more info? Don't want to use one, then don't. Don't want to be held to one, don't group with people that will. Pretty simple lol. I guess I should add to this, as a raid/guild leader of 15-20 years now....we NEED information...the more information the better. You don't have to join a guild, group, etc with people who are going to hold you to it. But a game without information, especially at the top end and harder difficult things...will be a mess. Best example these days being warcraft logs in combination with something like wow analyzer so I can see how people are performing, what is being missed mechanics wise, and what we can do to improve each attempt to actually complete the content. Due to the fact that Ashes of Creation won't be and never will be a pay to win game, i think that DPS meters would be redundant. I don't think you will see a high end geared player that does not know how to play their class properly or perform poorly. This is the case in all the pay to win games, where a player would just buy his way to epic gear but he doesn't know how to play his character properly due to lack of experience actually playing the character and going trough the grinding proccess to obtain his gear. You, as a guild or raid leader should be experienced enough to be able to tell if a certain individuals gear is sufficient enough for a certain raid and should not rely on a number that a DPS meter says. DPS meters are a good tool for an individual, but they actually hurt the game in a long run and should not exist in any mmorpg. A good leader is observant and relies on his leadership skills and not on a number that a DPS meter says. We live in an erra where all the information is just handed to us and we got spoiled by it, instead of working hard towards our common goal together. Some Leaders NEED the information to be handed to them, but some Leaders work very hard to get the same positive outcome. DPS meters create unnecessary tensions between players and also creates a room for a guild of pure dominance over another guild/raid/player/siege, etc... This is not going to be a popular comment, but i really don't care because i am making a valid point here. If you fail to complete a content, use your own brain to analyse what went wrong, make adjustments and try again. This is a case of "use what you got and get me some results" type of a thing. If anyone needs further explanation on why DPS meters shouldn't exist in a MMORPG, there are a few videos about it on YouTube. If i insulted anyone with this comment, i apologize. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings (or your ego). EDIT: I would also like to say that i will not reply to any toxic retaliation to my comment. I have made my point loud and clear on why DPS meters should not exist in any mmorpg. Some people just can't perform well without using one, but this shouldn't be a whole communitys problem knowing that there are people that can't think for themselves and can't properly lead without something like a DPS meter.
Pappasalt wrote: » I decided to check out the forums, why is there a 176 page discussion on a dps meter? lol. Why would there be a discussion on having more info? Don't want to use one, then don't. Don't want to be held to one, don't group with people that will. Pretty simple lol. I guess I should add to this, as a raid/guild leader of 15-20 years now....we NEED information...the more information the better. You don't have to join a guild, group, etc with people who are going to hold you to it. But a game without information, especially at the top end and harder difficult things...will be a mess. Best example these days being warcraft logs in combination with something like wow analyzer so I can see how people are performing, what is being missed mechanics wise, and what we can do to improve each attempt to actually complete the content.
NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » That should convince Steven to allow them, isn't it? Correlation doesn't exactly mean causation. People can still be super invested even w/o trackers. And those who care enough about trackers to never play a game w/o them might've not even gotten interested in the game in the first place, if the content didn't match their standard for what it should be to warrant a deep tracker use.
Noaani wrote: » Strevi wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? As I see it, if you're using a tracker in any capacity - you're invested enough in the game to do everything else too. And if you're super casual who barely does anything in the game, you'd probably not be using any trackers. Obviously there'll be exceptions to that kind of rule on both ends of the spectrum though. That should convince Steven to allow them, isn't it? It shouldnt convince them if they have a good reason to not allow them, but they dont have a good reason to not allow them. The reason they initially gave us has been outright debunked as being utterly untrue. So, if faced with implementing something that will see your more invested players happier, and that you have no valid reason to not include, there isnt really much of a reasonable argument to be made.
Noaani wrote: » As far as I am concerned, THAT is a reason Intrepid should implement first party trackers.
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway. Players who like that and would pay subscription 2-3 years for this activity, might not need difficult raids and whatever drops from there. They'd use it for builds though. Also, not that I'm saying that Ashes will reach this level of gameplay, but I'll give a simple example of how this works in PvP. So, in a specific situation in Alpha-1 (balance of Alpha-1 was known to be basically not a priority), you could win fights using a specific interaction of Tank's abilities and Cleric's. The problem, is that unless you can see everyone's damage, and I mean quite precisely, you couldn't even tell what the interaction was doing, to execute the thing (or your enemies). The effect was quite powerful, but relied on a 5 frame window to 'hit confirm' from the Cleric's side, then the Tank activating something else on reaction with another short (I didn't measure this one) frame window. I'm only saying that for PvP players, 'practicing that' can keep them invested for years regardless of their gear because the gear isn't the thing causing it to work, but you still end up 'watching replays' to check it. Does this require a meter? No, but that's not the derail we're currently on. tl;dr some games allow for a 'peak human' level of improvement by front-loading the requirements and understanding, which generally means that the player UNDERSTANDS the game quickly, and then practices it for fun for a long time. In THAT game design type, the faster you can get EVERYONE through the front-loaded part, the better. So the Tracker would be pulling double duty. Helping people hit the ground running for understanding of how to play in the most effective way according to their style, and then 'helping them if they reach the top, where there is too much going on for a normal person to track'. If anything, I'd say normal players not having so much time to invest is a stronger argument FOR Trackers than against it. Not by much, but it CAN be that way. So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? I obviously can't speak for them all, but frankly... yes. Of course, I again note that this is only true if the bulk of what is needed to 'git gud' is easy enough to understand or figure out early into a build, or early into synergizing with a group. If the game's INTENTION is to 'hide' what is required for strong play, that would lead to the opposite outcomes, and I think in that case a Tracker would be detrimental. But based on the psychology of most competitive players I understand (and there's actually a lot of overlap between fighting gamers/MOBA players and 'competitive' MMO players now, I know this from personal discussion with some as well as, well... myself I guess?) the more background you give them to enjoy their battles, the more they will engage with those systems and improve. It's the sort of person who wants to WIN more than they want to COMPETE that 'ditches a game to a new one' easily (assuming the game's design isn't innately frustrating).
Strevi wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Strevi wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » So you say players who would use trackers will play the game longer and also take part in the node related activities, crafting, caravan runs, sieges, politics... ? As I see it, if you're using a tracker in any capacity - you're invested enough in the game to do everything else too. And if you're super casual who barely does anything in the game, you'd probably not be using any trackers. Obviously there'll be exceptions to that kind of rule on both ends of the spectrum though. That should convince Steven to allow them, isn't it? It shouldnt convince them if they have a good reason to not allow them, but they dont have a good reason to not allow them. The reason they initially gave us has been outright debunked as being utterly untrue. So, if faced with implementing something that will see your more invested players happier, and that you have no valid reason to not include, there isnt really much of a reasonable argument to be made. Yes, unless as you said before, they have something they want to hide. Like not being able to make the content good/interesting enough, if trackers are used (poor development). Or something else. My assumption is that NPCs will cheat. Could be the same thing.
Strevi wrote: » Noaani wrote: » As far as I am concerned, THAT is a reason Intrepid should implement first party trackers. Did any game implemented first party trackers or would AoC be the first one to do that?
Mag7spy wrote: » If its impossible to stop trackers, then ya some things should be hidden at that point I'd have no issues.
Strevi wrote: » So you are the exception to the two rules you mentioned?
"This is why actual thousands of potential players stepped away from looking at this game when Steven first mentioned they will not support trackers (along with giving him the message "fuck you", which I was lucky enough to deliver on their behalf). "
