To the Action Combat Fans

What Action Combat games do you guys consider to be good? Link or reference the game.

Personally, not one game out there has been able to properly provide a good action combat experience, so it is difficult for me to understand why people want Action Combat as the main form of a combat experience, when it's not once been done properly.

Action Combat games always get messed up.

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Ludullu

Btw, what yalls opinion would be on mobs having detargeting abilities? Especially boss fights, be it directly from the boss or maybe adds that you'd need to kill in order to stop them from detargeting your members.

Ideally detargeting would mostly target high dps and healing players, so that there'd be a chance to stop one of their casts (well, I expect that detargeting would cancel casting, mb it won't).

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Btw, what yalls opinion would be on mobs having detargeting abilities? Especially boss fights, be it directly from the boss or maybe adds that you'd need to kill in order to stop them from detargeting your members.

Ideally detargeting would mostly target high dps and healing players, so that there'd be a chance to stop one of their casts (well, I expect that detargeting would cancel casting, mb it won't).

I'm used to this from multiple other forms, not 'detargeting'. Since I'm used to it, I don't mind it or care.

I actually think it would NOT work well because of Hybrid, but on the other hand, you could make some really mobile and interesting bosses where this matters. They just wouldn't be good Raid bosses. If we aren't talking about Raid-size bosses, bring it on.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

"By making the Fighter's Dash so far, so fast, etc, it allows them to make this design type the top level of play, and anyone who cannot do it should theoretically lose the raid or at least have to reset everything else to revive whichever Fighter can't do it."

There's a small chance that the dash was doubled in that showcase because it had its cd turned off. Just like the shadowey green dash from the weather showcase didn't have one. This would make your interaction way easier because the fighter would only need to react to the initial animation. Now they could obviously have another gapcloser, so there's that too.

But as you said in the following post, this is not really complex but just a bit difficult. For me, that kind of interaction is close to my L2's mages combo of "remove the dagger's target, blink in while they're confused, use a stun blink (that warped you backwards) to try and stun them, all while they're still lost after the detargeting". I had to keep my distance cause having a rogue near you usually meant death, but outside of the stun blink I didn't have any hard CCs so I'd need to catch moments where I could try using it. Both blinks were action abilities and relied on where your character was facing (and as I said before, turn rate was somewhat slow). And depending on the situation I might've wanted to redirect myself to get to a more beneficial position.

Here's at 0:58 and onwards you can see the player making these dashes to catch up to the enemy. And you could cut down on turn frames a bit (his are a bit sloppy), so you could just click the ground behind your char and almost immediately use the backwards blink. I'm sure I could've learned the frames of the turns and all that, but I mainly just did it by feel
https://youtu.be/p58LvAERuEs?t=58

So if AoC's fighter dash was just a backdash, I'd imagine that the fighter would have to do the actions you described, but also add a 180 turn after the first dash away, so that he could go back to the boss.

For me this would be a nice action to practice until I have it in my muscle memory and the only real reaction I'd need to do is to the boss' animation. And as for the "no attacks on the boss" part, I'd like to have proper visual and auditory feedback when someone gets hit, even if a small one (ideally with some size options), to make it obvious what I gotta do next. L2's soulshot sound and visual was amazing for this.

I think I verified later that the Fighter Dash is in any direction the player wants, so it's not a backdash only.

But if we extend the scenario explained (I'm trusting that you read all of it because you always do), let's assume "Tank in front of Boss, Fighter at the side, Rogue at the back."

"Boss does the stomp-rush AoE. Tank is pushed but not knocked down. Fighter backdashes because backdash is the only way to avoid. Boss moves ENOUGH that if Fighter wanted to get back to the EXACT same spot relative to the boss, they must aim 12 degrees to the left."

"Fighter optimally should get back to exact same spot in case the boss does that exact ability again. Or maybe they need to get there so that if a DIFFERENT ability happens they can hide behind the tank, or go assist the Rogue, and only from that spot could they perfectly dash to both."

Or maybe 'Fighter needs to stand precisely there because if their ability crits before the Counterstance engages, they will have hate now, and then need to dash behind the Tank before Counterstance wears off so that the boss doesn't turn and stop the Rogue's Sneak Attack positioning from being correct and waste a big burst damage from the Rogue."

Or in the case of a hypothetical "Action FFXI", they might want to dash behind where the Rogue is so that Trick Attack is available for even more damage because their Tank is a badass and has SO much hate that the optimal strategy is to do Max DEEPS.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I actually think it would NOT work well because of Hybrid, but on the other hand, you could make some really mobile and interesting bosses where this matters. They just wouldn't be good Raid bosses. If we aren't talking about Raid-size bosses, bring it on.

I'd see it as one of the main pushes towards the game truly being a hybrid. I'm sure that people will find a way to only use tab abilities. So I'd personally like the game to fuck them over by making them use at least a few action ones too, or always pay attention to what's happening.

And with some tricky scripting and AI manipulation you could mess up a ton of players if you have some mass detargeting right after a huge semi-wipe ability or during a boss animation (detargeting done by adds). You wanna use a big heal after the wipe mechanic? Well, you better pay attention to what the boss or adds are doing. You wanna cast a defensive ability on the tank? Make sure that the detargeting mage add is dead.

That's obviously a fairly simple mechanic, but I feel like if the game has detargeting in pvp - why not in pve too.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I actually think it would NOT work well because of Hybrid, but on the other hand, you could make some really mobile and interesting bosses where this matters. They just wouldn't be good Raid bosses. If we aren't talking about Raid-size bosses, bring it on.

I'd see it as one of the main pushes towards the game truly being a hybrid. I'm sure that people will find a way to only use tab abilities. So I'd personally like the game to fuck them over by making them use at least a few action ones too, or always pay attention to what's happening.

And with some tricky scripting and AI manipulation you could mess up a ton of players if you have some mass detargeting right after a huge semi-wipe ability or during a boss animation (detargeting done by adds). You wanna use a big heal after the wipe mechanic? Well, you better pay attention to what the boss or adds are doing. You wanna cast a defensive ability on the tank? Make sure that the detargeting mage add is dead.

That's obviously a fairly simple mechanic, but I feel like if the game has detargeting in pvp - why not in pve too.

This doesn't work because of the F1-F8 (probably) method of targeting party members, for Healing, and because Tab Target games also often come with Targeting Macros that are like /assist Player, so while you'd definitely still be relying on that player getting THEIR targeting done, I just don't feel like it would affect Tab Target players much in PvE without the mobility to back it up.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

But if we extend the scenario explained (I'm trusting that you read all of it because you always do), let's assume "Tank in front of Boss, Fighter at the side, Rogue at the back."

Yep, that'd be a nice decision-making tree that depends on reactionary actions to the boss mechanics and on proper coordination between raid members.

Add to this some short-timed reactionary buffs from the bard. Smth like "take a certain amount of dmg and transfer it as a dmg boost onto another player", with maybe a second or two for the receiving part and the buff itself (shorter if the timings allow).

Then add healer's high cd "link with a player to keep him at full hp by burning your mana at the same rate as his hp drops" and a summoner's "sacrifice a summon to fully restore mp to a player".

And now you have yourself a huge deeps moment that relies on tight timings of almost a full party of people, all through synergistic abilities and all dependent on the boss' action.

In other words, there's a ton of stuff like this that could make a fight fun and complex by combining tab's depth of interdependencies and timings with action's movement and positioning (especially if Intrepid go deeper down the road of formations, like the one Steven mentioned in the AMA).

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

This doesn't work because of the F1-F8 (probably) method of targeting party members, for Healing, and because Tab Target games also often come with Targeting Macros that are like /assist Player, so while you'd definitely still be relying on that player getting THEIR targeting done, I just don't feel like it would affect Tab Target players much in PvE without the mobility to back it up.

But it would just be an additional thing to track. Yes, you can just click a button to return to your target, but your cast might've been broken and you're now on some big cd w/o the effect or you might've been paying close attention to another thing and missed a few frames of action which led to an imbalance of the encounter.

It'd just be another tool for boss encounter design, which might trip up low-mid skill players while also requiring more from the top lvl ones.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This doesn't work because of the F1-F8 (probably) method of targeting party members, for Healing, and because Tab Target games also often come with Targeting Macros that are like /assist Player, so while you'd definitely still be relying on that player getting THEIR targeting done, I just don't feel like it would affect Tab Target players much in PvE without the mobility to back it up.

But it would just be an additional thing to track. Yes, you can just click a button to return to your target, but your cast might've been broken and you're now on some big cd w/o the effect or you might've been paying close attention to another thing and missed a few frames of action which led to an imbalance of the encounter.

It'd just be another tool for boss encounter design, which might trip up low-mid skill players while also requiring more from the top lvl ones.

I don't mind 'additional things to track' of this type, just noting that I don't think it would be a very effective one in many situations based on my fluff-expectations of Ashes. It would work much better in TL and I hope to see it there, though.

I feel like the Cleric showcase, even if minimal, whenever we get it, will be a much bigger boost to people's faith and understanding of the combat system.

Or maybe I'm just arrogantly thinking that I can 'deconstruct their probable aims' from watching it. Still, knowing that Steven and I both follow the Cleric path quite a bit, seeing what Steven 'is willing to allow/has in mind for Cleric', especially if he showcases anything Actiony (do it, Steven! Do it for me! You know I got you!)
I think it would add a lot to that small 'synergy concept' we have growing as they build more towards Alpha-2.

Even better, they get to do it all without committing to anything.

[CorporateSpeak]"Let's revisit this after the next milestone.[/CorporateSpeak]

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

It is pretty amazing that @Azherae here is trying to say im trying to add more action elements to the game and ragging on tab target?

Actually makes no sense it is the other way around with me saying action can work fine and they are trying to saying no developer will have more action elements in the game since it won't work or suddenly become too hard that makes no sense gameplay wise.

I've said this before u realize AoC will let you go 75% action right, which is in contrast to what you are saying about developers won't do it?

If you have changed your stance from what you have said in the past, then I apologize.

I don't want to have the discussion about the whole 'don't add more Action because it lowers tactics' thing. As long as we can all agree that it's a SLIDER for skill and which type of skill, then I have no argument. Noaani wishes 'less action so that there can be more thinking skills'.

I will repeat that I don't agree with Noaani on this entirely because I also like the physical skills and IF they make PvE enemies with the correct types of physical skill challenges, I will consider it to be just as fun and tactical as a fully Tab Target encounter.

I am not arguing with you if you are not saying that Tab requires less skill OR if you are saying 'Skill in Tab could be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'. I also believe that some 'skill in Tab can be replaced by adding a skill type that I like better'.

It's called ArcheAge.

My whole stance is against him sayings devs WILL NOT ADD action elements with tab complexity and that it is impossible for people to handle it.

I believe devs can add it and it is not impossible for players to handle that kind of content...

I never said they wont add some, I said anything they add in one area will require them taking away from another area.

As is the case with Soul Caliber, the developers added a third dimension of movement, but in doing so, slowed combat down. A game lime that, with the same speed and such but on a 2D plane would be very boring. Add the 3rd dimension and it works, make combat faster and it works.

This is the point I am making. Both action and tab target games have players at an acceptable level of engagement. If you take an action game that has players at a similar level of engagement and want to add some tab elements to it, you need to take something away from it somewhere.

The same can be said of a tab game. If developers want to add aiming to a tab game that already sees players suitably engaged, they will need to take something away.

I'm not really even making any assumptions as to what it could be that developers take away. I mean, fighting games do this in 2D vs 3D, which is not something i had even considered (a side scrolling MMORPG could be interesting).

It may well be that developers take mana away or something. Anything taken from a game to give players less to use up time or thought means developers can add something back in. On the other hand, if you are able to add to a game without issue from players, then your initial game didnt have players fully engaged.

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