novercalis wrote: » I am hoping to provide a fresh take and potential new idea / system to support what I am about to suggest. There are a few questions I have asked myself, a few statements I have seen as of late from content creators about Open world PvP, Griefing, PvE Game, etc and whatnot. First - I am not anti-pvp. I am however anti-Griefing but so far to my understanding, Steven has a system in place for it. I believe it can go a bit further but that is a different discussion. This post is about Why Open PvP is important but not all aspect of Open PvP is required and solutions to find a happy medium that makes sense. First of all my stance: I love and support open sea / open pvp. Makes sense I love and support auto flag pvp for Caravans - Make sense I love and support opt in / auto flag Seige/Castle/node/guild Wars - Make sense But what doesn't make sense? - Ganking lowbies (Potentially addressed with corruption system) - Killing gatherers (semi addressed with corruption) - Killing Adventurers leveling up, not really lowbies but within 1-7 level differences. Let's re-examine these 3 again. Lowbies: Honestly there is no need to have this in the game. I might be outdated with AoC pvp system but Lowbies should have protections from ganks. If not. This falls under the corruption system details, which would be another discussion for another day. Adventurers - Once again - what purposes does this provide for anyone? Who does it benefit? Normally the solution to this is "Toggle" pvp. But I do not want to adovcate that type of toggle system either. Arguments have been made that OPEN PVP killed MMO - let's refocus back to the 3rd statement above Gatherers - this is where I changed my perspective and question on this topic. Instead of asking why open pvp is bad for these 3 things, I asked why is open pvp important. ECONOMY. Re-examining and changing targets; Lowbies - should still have protection - there is no reason. Adventurers - so so. Any adventurers leaving raid/dungeons should be "soft flag" Gatherers - should be "soft flag" WHAT IS SOFT FLAG?? Let's use Gatherer as an example, Chopping down wood. a Tree has a potential 4 tier loot table. COMMON, UNCOMMON, RARE, LEGENDARY Example: Maple Tree Common - Wood Uncommon - Maple Sap Rare - Honey Legendary - Queen bee (just roll with it pls..) So instead of having a traditional TOGGLE ON/OFF PvP.. why not have a system that soft flags you, if you are carrying specific resources? Maybe Common and UnCommon items wont soft flag you for pvp, but the second you are carrying a rare or higher, other players may attack you now for that resources. After all - we are fighting for resources, fighting for Economy. Dungeons - some items (resources) may auto soft flag you. Just like raids that has been stated by Steven, you will need to fight ur way back to town to keep your rewards. Same is true for dungeons - certain resources will open you up for PvP. SOFT FLAG: What Soft Flag is - the ability for anyone to start combat with you. After that, everything AoC has with it's pvp system takes over. Wehter you choose to fight or not is up to you. WE still maintain Risk/Reward and To Fight or Flight and to Kill and corrupt or go purple... all of that is still intact. But I truly do not see a point where, someone who is just leveling via PvE content, outside of dungeons should be ganked for no reason. Make it make sense. If they had Resources that gave them a soft flag - than yes. But if not - there is no risk/reward and it's pointless to allow that type of grief and agency. I think the corruption system is great and we arent doing away with it. That still comes into play, when ganking / killing low level gatherers, the level discrepancy vs corruption. This still holds true on a lvl 60 killing a lvl 30 leaving a lvl 30 dungeon. We already have Gatherers still requiring to get their goods into caravan system but atleast they can decide - when looting a rare item - if they want to keep it n be soft flag or not and continue gathering common items. A Soft flag doesnt have to be from a "rare" commodity, it is up to the community and/or the Devs to simply state, any uncommon (Green) or above can soft flag you for pvp. I think Open World PVP is important and meaningful if balanced around Economy aka resources. Now the question then begs - should common resources put you in a soft flag or not? That is dependent how important common goods are as well. If basic Lumber isnt that important but Aged Lumber, Pristine Lumber, etc are - PvP should be focusing on those aspect of stuff. Open World PvP is great, the problem for many is the pointless killing that adds no value to an MMO. if they got nothing, why r u killing them? Toggle PVP is bad, but there should be mechanics in place that soft flags you. Teach, Promote Risk/Reward. Are you simply trying to level up only - then drop that soft flag resources and go about your day.
novercalis wrote: » Azhe Let's use that scenario. Low level gatherer - the second you carry a resource that soft flags you - that protection goes off. I am aware there is a contradiction in my post about high lvl ganking low lvl - but to be fair, the post isnt fleshed out for all possible scenario either. The moment, your low lvl gatherer is soft flag - he/she is open to pvp rulesets. However AoC was gonna handle that aspect of gameplay remains the same. All I am trying to do is add protection for the pointless killings, making unwanted griefing even harder. Mainly someone doing basic gathering or basic leveling open world pve that isnt carrying soft flag items. hence the soft flag idea. will that fix your concern?
novercalis wrote: » Azhe - I assume you are against Open PvP in General? not sure what your stance is. But to add - you are now soft flag, I can attack you, yes. but I can also demand and tell you, hey give me that resource or die. Assuming players still drop % of items. Instead of losing 100 out of 1000 logs, all you had to do is give me the Maple Saps. If you pass the resource to another player - yes that player becomes soft flag. The point is - we are contesting for that resource. You become de-flagged. When I mentioned levels - it was a general statement of just a PvE leveler vs high level. It is merely a statement in most mmo, high lvl players killing low level players just sucks, more so when there is no point to it. that gameplay should never exist to begin with. But that should be all null and void if you are soft flag. Regardless how AoC was/is going to handle a high lvl player killing a low level player via corruption still remains the same. But atleast have a reason - hence the soft flag is the reason. Because it indicated you had a resource. Now the decrepency of their levels falls into AoC Corruption system, which I am not touching.
novercalis wrote: » First - I am not anti-pvp. I am however anti-Griefing but so far to my understanding, Steven has a system in place for it. I believe it can go a bit further but that is a different discussion.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » novercalis wrote: » First - I am not anti-pvp. I am however anti-Griefing but so far to my understanding, Steven has a system in place for it. I believe it can go a bit further but that is a different discussion. You are anti pvp because you are clueless, I can see that just because you think that such thing as griefing exists in pvp. All you want is to protect your gold farming completely unbothered, ruinning the game's economy, going for a carebearing power grab by accumulating a fortune unchallenged. The carebears are oppressive in any game, they should be hunted down and have all their goods stolen. If carebears want to survive they have to learn PVP or bring PVPers to their guilds or work together with other players. What is ruinning all games are communities who want to farm everything they can and as much as they can with no concerns about what is going on around them. At the same time you see other players as a problem, they can also be your solution... it's players who can kill all your "scary pvp people", it is by creating partnerships and content with other players that you will survive. In AoC the carebears will become the meta oppressors in the game because their bot aspirant pvp farmming operations will upgrade their node, that will make the surronding nodes as their slaves and you want all these people safe... they should be hunted down! Vassal nodes are not allowed to declare war on the master node, the only way to stall the master node a little bit is by ganking all their gatherers.
novercalis wrote: » Sath - is your post directed at me? I agree with you, if u were. Do all resources matter tho? I think common, basic shit like plain ol lumber (using New World) shouldnt really matter and get you attacked. But the second you have a green lumber or whatever - now your open yourself for pvp, because important Resources should matter. ECONOMY matters. White resources may not be important, but everything else should be contested. So give a little protection to the players who are just doing BASIC gathering, getting their basic gathering levels up and players who are trying to just level PvE style that isnt carrying anything of importance in peace.
novercalis wrote: » I dont know where I implicit said lvl 10 cant fight lvl 10. lvl 60 shouldnt be allowed to fight a lvl 10 w/o a soft flag. Soft flag / Target on player back. Good point, potential solution - you dont know if they are soft flagged or not unless you had intended to pvp to begin with. So, it shouldnt be a visual marker saying "HEY ATTACK ME" - only when you put your cursor over and attempt to attack, will you know if someone is soft flagged or not.
Sathrago wrote: » novercalis wrote: » Sath - is your post directed at me? I agree with you, if u were. Do all resources matter tho? I think common, basic shit like plain ol lumber (using New World) shouldnt really matter and get you attacked. But the second you have a green lumber or whatever - now your open yourself for pvp, because important Resources should matter. ECONOMY matters. White resources may not be important, but everything else should be contested. So give a little protection to the players who are just doing BASIC gathering, getting their basic gathering levels up and players who are trying to just level PvE style that isnt carrying anything of importance in peace. Low level resources are still used in crafting higher tier items so making them free to pick is not good for the game. What if low level players want to contest other low level players for example? It's not always going to be high levels attempting to bully low levels. You act like you didnt read how corruption works though. First of all you cant see how much health another player has at any point. So the risk of attacking a low level player or someone fighting a mob is that you accidentally kill the player making you corrupted. Player death also sucks, a lot. And these penalties on death are halved if you try to defend yourself but if you are corrupted they are doubled. The current corruption details make me think you would have to be a blooming dumbass to want to risk getting it. If people are just attacking each other and going red all over the place in the beginning of the game they will quickly find out how horrible the game will treat them for making that decision.
