Discussion: The connection of Open PvP and Economy & A Soft Flag System that makes sense.

1) While true - just reinforcement of that idea, showcasing - griefing lowbies bad, pvp over resources ok.

B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.

3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.

Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.

novercalis wrote: »

1) While true - just reinforcement of that idea, showcasing - griefing lowbies bad, pvp over resources ok.

B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.

3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.

Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.

Would it then be 'intended' that a lower level player could 'gather at a rare Node to prevent competition from doing this' and 'instantly drop-delete the rare item just to prevent the competition from having it if anyone else was around', and go around doing this as a way to slow down production in a mine, for example?

I'm asking if that is 'the correct outcome' in your scenario, just to make sure. Obviously people could do that now, the difference being that now you could kill them BEFORE they do that.

Azherae wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

1) While true - just reinforcement of that idea, showcasing - griefing lowbies bad, pvp over resources ok.

B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.

3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.

Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.

Would it then be 'intended' that a lower level player could 'gather at a rare Node to prevent competition from doing this' and 'instantly drop-delete the rare item just to prevent the competition from having it if anyone else was around', and go around doing this as a way to slow down production in a mine, for example?

I'm asking if that is 'the correct outcome' in your scenario, just to make sure. Obviously people could do that now, the difference being that now you could kill them BEFORE they do that.

I am not following.

novercalis wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

1) While true - just reinforcement of that idea, showcasing - griefing lowbies bad, pvp over resources ok.

B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.

3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.

Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.

Would it then be 'intended' that a lower level player could 'gather at a rare Node to prevent competition from doing this' and 'instantly drop-delete the rare item just to prevent the competition from having it if anyone else was around', and go around doing this as a way to slow down production in a mine, for example?

I'm asking if that is 'the correct outcome' in your scenario, just to make sure. Obviously people could do that now, the difference being that now you could kill them BEFORE they do that.

I am not following.

I want to stop/slow Node A from making a legendary sword/crafting bench with the Orichalcum from a mine.

I take my low level character with high Mining skill into the mine and hit all the veins of Orichalcum and destroy the result by dropping it (it does not go on the ground, it is just lost). I cannot be attacked because I am too low level and I am not carrying anything that soft flags me.

I have achieved my goal. Is this intended?

Azherae wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

1) While true - just reinforcement of that idea, showcasing - griefing lowbies bad, pvp over resources ok.

B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.

3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.

Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.

Would it then be 'intended' that a lower level player could 'gather at a rare Node to prevent competition from doing this' and 'instantly drop-delete the rare item just to prevent the competition from having it if anyone else was around', and go around doing this as a way to slow down production in a mine, for example?

I'm asking if that is 'the correct outcome' in your scenario, just to make sure. Obviously people could do that now, the difference being that now you could kill them BEFORE they do that.

I am not following.

I want to stop/slow Node A from making a legendary sword/crafting bench with the Orichalcum from a mine.

I take my low level character with high Mining skill into the mine and hit all the veins of Orichalcum and destroy the result by dropping it (it does not go on the ground, it is just lost). I cannot be attacked because I am too low level and I am not carrying anything that soft flags me.

I have achieved my goal. Is this intended?

Prior before my suggestion - this can still happen correct?

Would there be an issue if this is true:

your adventurer class level is 35, thus you are lvl 35.

your profession level is 35, thus you are level 35.

If your adventurer class is 30 and profession/gatherer level is 40, you are level 40 for pvp purposes?

novercalis wrote: »

Would there be an issue if this is true:

your adventurer class level is 35, thus you are lvl 35.

your profession level is 35, thus you are level 35.

If your adventurer class is 30 and profession/gatherer level is 40, you are level 40 for pvp purposes?

As far as I understand it you cannot have a higher gathering level then you character level. I know for sure you cannot be a master gatherer at low level.

If that is true - then Azshe point is mute in that aspect

GullibleSkeptic wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

Would there be an issue if this is true:

your adventurer class level is 35, thus you are lvl 35.

your profession level is 35, thus you are level 35.

If your adventurer class is 30 and profession/gatherer level is 40, you are level 40 for pvp purposes?

As far as I understand it you cannot have a higher gathering level then you character level. I know for sure you cannot be a master gatherer at low level.

I have no information to indicate that this is true. The only quote I know says the exact opposite of this.

Now, maybe I misunderstood something about how much XP you get from gathering.

I would appreciate the quote/reference that makes you think this is true, when you have time to find it.

@novercalis - That's why I ask above, the quote I have is:

Progression within artisan classes does not relate to a player's progression in their adventuring class.[9]

There is also a direct quote from Steven:

novercalis wrote: »

If that is true - then Azshe point is mute in that aspect

True but it also goes to the point of why are high level players going to want to kill low level players?
For low level mats that arent worth the corruption they would get for killing someone so low? Just to be an jerk? I don't really see this happening as the time wasted to grind off the corruption would stop all but the worst people from killing lowbies. Imagine killing that one person just to be mean then having to spend hours if not days grinding away the corruption all the while risking someone killing you and taking both 400% higher drops of materials and potentially your gear. How is that worth it?

let's go with - your version is true.

My statement still holds - you are a level 40 crafter/gatherer and a level 10 adventurer.
Progression in of itself isnt touched - so that doesnt matter.

for the purpose of PVP and to prevent cheese tactics as you mentioned - your PVP level would be 40.
Would this change anything and for the better?

novercalis wrote: »

let's go with - your version is true.

My statement still holds - you are a level 40 crafter/gatherer and a level 10 adventurer.
Progression in of itself isnt touched - so that doesnt matter.

for the purpose of PVP and to prevent cheese tactics as you mentioned - your PVP level would be 40.
Would this change anything and for the better?

I don't have a personal opinion on it, but it sounds like the answer to my question was:

"No, that isn't intended."

Basically, the lowbie protection only applies if you are ALSO a low level artisan, in your intentions for the system.

Some people might care, but if your intention isn't to protect those people then it's their case to make, relative to your system suggestions.

GullibleSkeptic wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

If that is true - then Azshe point is mute in that aspect

True but it also goes to the point of why are high level players going to want to kill low level players?
For low level mats that arent worth the corruption they would get for killing someone so low? Just to be an jerk? I don't really see this happening as the time wasted to grind off the corruption would stop all but the worst people from killing lowbies. Imagine killing that one person just to be mean then having to spend hours if not days grinding away the corruption all the while risking someone killing you and taking both 400% higher drops of materials and potentially your gear. How is that worth it?

I do use High Level as an example as hyperbole and for Extreme / worse case scenerio. Since most posts, players who are anti pvp will use this type of assertion.

But also, let's be real - If given the ability to gank lowbies at will, people will. The current issue is - we dont know how effective the corruption is - how ez to remove it, etc. Finding loopholes, using alts, using PvE environment. We have an idea but no numbers yet, so everyone is looking at doomsday scenarios. Also, ppl are jerks and ppl will attempt to try perma red PK status and make it work, some way shape or form.

Progression within artisan classes does not relate to a player's progression in their adventuring class.[9]

There is also a direct quote from Steven:

While this doesn't say anything that directly counters the assertion from @GullibleSkeptic it is probably just another case of people interpreting things however they feel makes sense to them. Whether that's me or Gullible.[/quote]

This is true but I thought I heard that in order to use different level tools you needed to be certain level however all the tools listed that where in Alpha 1 where level 1. I would hope they would change this to make it so you can't have a level 1 gatherer.

novercalis wrote: »

I do use High Level as an example as hyperbole and for Extreme / worse case scenerio. Since most posts, players who are anti pvp will use this type of assertion.

But also, let's be real - If given the ability to gank lowbies at will, people will. The current issue is - we dont know how effective the corruption is - how ez to remove it, etc. Finding loopholes, using alts, using PvE environment. We have an idea but no numbers yet, so everyone is looking at doomsday scenarios. Also, ppl are jerks and ppl will attempt to try perma red PK status and make it work, some way shape or form.

This is entirely true which brings up the point of why even make the thread when none of what you are talking about has been tested?
If in Alpha 1 high level players are killing low level players and the system isn't doing enough to negate that then tweek it. But until it's tested there is no point to making assumptions.

Also yo your soft flag system it wouldn't work in ashes. Mob drops have different values depending on where you sell them. Gatherables are always useful even uncommons are used in high end recipes. And with seasons what's common and worthless today in a month could be extremely valuable.

GullibleSkeptic wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

I do use High Level as an example as hyperbole and for Extreme / worse case scenerio. Since most posts, players who are anti pvp will use this type of assertion.

But also, let's be real - If given the ability to gank lowbies at will, people will. The current issue is - we dont know how effective the corruption is - how ez to remove it, etc. Finding loopholes, using alts, using PvE environment. We have an idea but no numbers yet, so everyone is looking at doomsday scenarios. Also, ppl are jerks and ppl will attempt to try perma red PK status and make it work, some way shape or form.

This is entirely true which brings up the point of why even make the thread when none of what you are talking about has been tested?
If in Alpha 1 high level players are killing low level players and the system isn't doing enough to negate that then tweek it. But until it's tested there is no point to making assumptions.

Also yo your soft flag system it wouldn't work in ashes. Mob drops have different values depending on where you sell them. Gatherables are always useful even uncommons are used in high end recipes. And with seasons what's common and worthless today in a month could be extremely valuable.

In terms of items - if it has a purposes, a craft purpose, a siege purpse.. anything of like that - regardless in or out of season - it's soft flaggable.
In the end - the only non soft flaggable items should be quest item, Grey Trash Items that is not used in anything, other than the purpose to sell to an NPC for some change.

Thus gives the PVE players who wants to just level in peace and slowly grow some funds - the ability to do so.

novercalis wrote: »

In terms of items - if it has a purposes, a craft purpose, a siege purpse.. anything of like that - regardless in or out of season - it's soft flaggable.
In the end - the only non soft flaggable items should be quest item, Grey Trash Items that is not used in anything, other than the purpose to sell to an NPC for some change.

Thus gives the PVE players who wants to just level in peace and slowly grow some funds - the ability to do so.

Grey trash items can be sold at farther nodes for more money. It's literally one of the main reasons for caravans. And while ur questing you will be killing mobs which will drop their mats you will always be flagged. Your system doesn't work because it only bases value off of one possible sale point for those mats. That takes away my ability to see you kill a ton of enemies that have mats I know are valuable at x node kill you and make a caravan to go there to sell them.

GullibleSkeptic wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

In terms of items - if it has a purposes, a craft purpose, a siege purpse.. anything of like that - regardless in or out of season - it's soft flaggable.
In the end - the only non soft flaggable items should be quest item, Grey Trash Items that is not used in anything, other than the purpose to sell to an NPC for some change.

Thus gives the PVE players who wants to just level in peace and slowly grow some funds - the ability to do so.

Grey trash items can be sold at farther nodes for more money. It's literally one of the main reasons for caravans. And while ur questing you will be killing mobs which will drop their mats you will always be flagged. Your system doesn't work because it only bases value off of one possible sale point for those mats. That takes away my ability to see you kill a ton of enemies that have mats I know are valuable at x node kill you and make a caravan to go there to sell them.

novercalis wrote: »

GullibleSkeptic wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

In terms of items - if it has a purposes, a craft purpose, a siege purpse.. anything of like that - regardless in or out of season - it's soft flaggable.
In the end - the only non soft flaggable items should be quest item, Grey Trash Items that is not used in anything, other than the purpose to sell to an NPC for some change.

Thus gives the PVE players who wants to just level in peace and slowly grow some funds - the ability to do so.

Grey trash items can be sold at farther nodes for more money. It's literally one of the main reasons for caravans. And while ur questing you will be killing mobs which will drop their mats you will always be flagged. Your system doesn't work because it only bases value off of one possible sale point for those mats. That takes away my ability to see you kill a ton of enemies that have mats I know are valuable at x node kill you and make a caravan to go there to sell them.

no no no no no.

Literally make Grey items have no purpose in the game. It has a static cost, regardless where in the world you're in. Only purpose is to vendor it. It can not be used to craft, or anything else. it has no real value other than the npc saying - I will buy that from you for 1s each. THAT IS IT.

White items - like lumber, berries, pelts, are important and used with caravan. those should be flaggable.

Grey Items can be like - A broken Hammer, can not be fixed, smelted, deconstructed or anything.
It can be, Pocket Lint - no purpose in any crafting recipe.. nothing in the game will ask you to use Lint - just absolute trash item that is vendor. That is it.

I still don't understand why this item type is necessary. It's just bloat. In a game that by its nature must already have some of the most robust and complex itemization out there. If it's just to give people money while they level, just give them the money outright, at that point.

If it isn't going to flag them, it can't be lost, it's entire purpose is to sell to NPC for Currency... just give them the currency for the kill and be done with it.