Is the goal truly PvX?

This is a general question on both how players interpret Intrepid Studio's vision, as well as what players actually desire.

I seem to see a general consensus that PvP is the main focus. But I'm wondering is PvE really even a big part of the game? Sure there are NPC mobs and bosses but their importance seems to be dwarfed by the ability to PvP around them. Most people seem to only want their PvE if it also has PvP.

Rust is a PvP game, just because PvE elements exist in Rust doesn't mean people call it a PvX game.

So is this game PvX? Or is it just a PvP game?

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Beyolf

NiKr wrote: »

Beyolf wrote: »

Let me try to answer your question.
1. In order for large scale battles to be good the damage from 1 play to another should not be very bursty because if 1 player can burst another in just a 1-2 seconds then when few people focus 1 he die in just miliseconds (no time for reaction at all). In lineage2 1v1 fight took "ages" assuming that both players have good gear, thats why the large scale pvp worked quite good, the PvP was more balanced around large amount of groups and their synergy.
2. Tanks should have very important role and should be the primary target not just avoided and ignored as in most cases it happens.
3. There have to be different mechanic for attacking, namely siege weapons and other war tools which has to be play controlled by players and even can be controlled with multiple players.
4. There have to be different defense siege weapons and tools in order to counter different attacking siege weapons, also controlled by players (in some cases multiple players).
5. There have to be some ways to sneak and use some small groups of people to distract the opponent and etc.

Gladly, you've pretty much described AoC's plans so we just gotta hope that they work out.

Yes, hopefully. I believe they have the potential and the capacity to make it very fun and engaging

akabear

Noaani wrote: »

I'm curious, in L2, how much of an impact did leadership have in PvP?
.

Good leadership was pivotal for mass pvp.. the fights of 20 v 20+ up to several 100 v several hundred were highly tactical.

Good leadership required good political skills to make deals for alliances, end wars, create wars, stay neutral, agree to which guild or alliances might take over castles (which made a lot of coin), or throw a seige, back off from an open raid or be the one to do so.

But for group vs group, depended if grouped up for pvp or grouped up for pve and had an incidental pvp encounter.

1-2 v 1-2 pvp.. well that depended on your class.. if you were a healer - expect to be picked off first or last depending how well you are known for your skills.. tank.. might be just kited and left alone.. mage types hit way too hard but were glass cannons.. and archer types hit almost as hard but were agile!..

Longest pvp fight outside a seige, I think was something like 4-4 went for a full buff (20min) and was a cat and mouse chase over many regions of the map!

There were no illusions of which classes could fight and which could not.. there was no expectation by dwarves to do damage.. but all had key strategic roles in larger pvp and played their parts..

Hoping AoC allow the same to happen, and not design the game so every class can do as well at pvp.. some should be good at pvp. some should shine in other domains..

Also, hope that the politics play out similarly, whereby guilds that want to be pve only and/or neutral, can make alliances and friends, just like L2, and do their own thing separate in piece if need be.

Dygz

Why would peop

Calibix wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Calibix wrote: »

I don't understand why Dygz keeps posting. I understand he's "interested" in the development due to some personal relationships, but why keep posting? You can just lurk instead of posting your same old opinion with nothing new to contribute in any thread that mentions Pvp. Your obviously not going to play, so imo your borderline trolling at this point.

LMAO
Why would I not post?
Especially when people continue to talk about me and misunderstand and misrepresent my perspective.

Thanks for proving my point by once again not contributing to the discussion. Trolling confirmed.

LMAO
Prior to you invoking my name on Nov 1 to complain about me contributing to PvP threads, I last posted in this thread on Oct 28.
But, you felt a need to ask why I'm still posting. And now complain that my response did not contribute to the PvP discussion.
If you invoke my name, you should expect that I'm likely to respond to that post.

Dolyem

So just from skimming through the comments, have we gone from discussing whether or not the goal of ashes is to be PvX into a argument over whether PvP or PvE is more difficult?

Noaani

Dolyem wrote: »

So just from skimming through the comments, have we gone from discussing whether or not the goal of ashes is to be PvX into a argument over whether PvP or PvE is more difficult?

Yeah, because the answer to the first question is that Intrepid look at what most of us consider to be PvP games (Archeage, L2, BDO et al) and see PvX instead.

Arya_Yeshe

Here is the thing, you trying to mix with the pvp crowd that you clearly dont belong, so here's some answers

Noaani wrote: »

If I have better gear than you, it is because I am better at a specific aspect of the game than you.

No, that would make you a bot aspirant who farmed gear for hundreds of hours for compensating your lack of skills or real life

Noaani wrote: »

If I killed stuff and got good gear from it, then I am clearly better at that than you - if i have better gear than you.

You are just a carebear farming gear, completely unskilled in pvp, hiding behind a system that offers no loot drops from your corpse

in other words, you are just bad and is using the system to grief people through gear, people who didnt farm pve for hundreds of hours

Noaani wrote: »

If I played the economic game well and bought my gear, then grats to me for being great at making coin in an MMO - I am obviously better at it than you.

if you can buy the good gear, than thats ok
still there's no full loot drop, you are still compensating your lack of personal skills in pvp by spending the gold you farmed in your bot aspirancy

Noaani wrote: »

If I made some great friends and they just give me gear, then I am better at the social aspects of MMO's than you.

Thats the only point that is fair in your reply, if you manage getting stuff than you are a better scammer or got people backing you ip, which is fine....

Still not a PvPer... you are just hiding behind items instead of personal pvp skills

Noaani wrote: »

Being good at PvP makes other aspects of the game easier. Why shouldnt being good at other aspects of the game make PvP easier?

One thing has nothing to do with the other, you can try arena as much as you want and still be bad after years
but you can join parties for grinding dungeons and amass wealth

In the end of the day: if you run for gear for compensating your lack of skills in pvp it's just weaseling your way to victory and almost as ugly as cheating

@Noaani i'm not trying to be an ass to you or anything, I'm just offering anwers from a pvper point of view. This is how a sweaty pvper will see such arguments you brought

Arya_Yeshe

here @Noaani just to show you I wasnt trying to be unpolite or anything, but just to tell you the perspective of a sweaty pvpers who play with sweaty pvpers... Asmongold just said the same thing as me and he explained why:

https://youtu.be/V5T9lPC1TWo?t=1688

Asmongold just did another reacto video about AoC and he talked about the problem about grinding for gear for pvp in mmos

The fundamental paradox about pvp in mmos is grind for gear for pvp, so you gotta relentlessly farm for gear so you can pvp in an optimal way... so the PvP guy will have to grind hundreds of hours for gear, which is sad, it's depressing someone who likes combat having to go through that

But the PvE carebear can skip all PvP and go for PvE only... sometimes he will get ganked, not that it matters it will change nothing in the long run for him....

Can you imagine forcing a carebear to pvp for hundreds of hours?

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Noaani i'm not trying to be an ass to you or anything, I'm just offering anwers from a pvper point of view. This is how a sweaty pvper will see such arguments you brought

I was going to give you my typical smart arse answers, but rather than that, I'm going to reciprocate the above.

Things like killing mobs for gear, playing the economy and social aspects of the game - these are the things that separate an MMORPG from a lobby game.

If a PvP'er doesn't want to participate in these things, they should play a game that doesn't include them. This is no different to how if a PvE'er doesn't want to PvP, they should play a game without PvP.

I'm going to assume you are accepting of the notion of fair discussion.

Assuming this, if we agree that someone not willing to accept PvP should not play Ashes, then surely it stands to reason that someone not willing to accept other aspects of the game should also not play Ashes.

Am I missing something here, or is the above not 100% reasonable?

Strevi

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Asmongold just said the same thing as me and he explained why:

I'll click and downvote but not watch

I don't like how he looks.

Arya_Yeshe

Noaani wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Noaani i'm not trying to be an ass to you or anything, I'm just offering anwers from a pvper point of view. This is how a sweaty pvper will see such arguments you brought

I was going to give you my typical smart arse answers, but rather than that, I'm going to reciprocate the above.

Things like killing mobs for gear, playing the economy and social aspects of the game - these are the things that separate an MMORPG from a lobby game.

If a PvP'er doesn't want to participate in these things, they should play a game that doesn't include them. This is no different to how if a PvE'er doesn't want to PvP, they should play a game without PvP.

I'm going to assume you are accepting of the notion of fair discussion.

Assuming this, if we agree that someone not willing to accept PvP should not play Ashes, then surely it stands to reason that someone not willing to accept other aspects of the game should also not play Ashes.

Am I missing something here, or is the above not 100% reasonable?

Here is the thing, let's say a carebear wants to become a fantastic craftsman, he will need a certain axe for cutting down some mythical trees

But this axe will only drop if he plays hundreds of hours in the PvP arena and this axe can't be bought, it is a soulbound axe

How do you think this craft-only carebear will feel?
Do you think that's fair to him?

That's the paradox in RPG MMOs these days, the game runs around building your character but companies hide the pvp gear behind pve grinds

That's what I liked about Guild Wars 2, I didnt run all quest chains in the open world and I am a level 80 because I played so much PvP that I became a level 80 in the open pve world. I think that's awesome... and in GW2 if in the open world I travel to an area that is for levels 12-16 the game will temporarily bring my character to level 16 so I can have a challenge

So in certain MMOs the carebears are weasiling their way to victory, they mindlessly farm and grind after gear, then they have gear for pvp even if they are bad pvpers

In WoW it's impossible killing the other guy due to unbalanced gear

Dygz

Sounds like a description of the Open Seas.

Ehrgeiz

Dygz wrote: »

Sounds like a description of the Open Seas.

its all so tiresome...

@Arya_Yeshe I disagree with you here. WoW was the best mmo I have played when it comes to gear balance. I mean, have you ever played Aion or Archeage where p2w dominated? In AA a p2w player could wipeout a whole raidgroup in 5 seconds.

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

That's the paradox in RPG MMOs these days, the game runs around building your character but companies hide the pvp gear behind pve grinds

No, they hide the gear behind the game.

Again, if you want PvP without PvE, play a lobby game that simply doesnt have that PvE.

Your analogy of a wood cutter not being able to cut wood until they have done hundreds of hours of PvP is flawed, because the reverse is not true.

Sure, a player will need to PvE in order to get good gear and get to the level cap, but they are not prevented from PvP'ing during this period.

If that player wanted to cut wood complained that they had to PvP, I would point out to them that in playing this game, they signed up for both woodcutting AND PvP, and they shouldn't then complain about being able to do both at the same time - especially when their complaint is actually that they only want to do one of the two things they signed up to do, and so that being the case they should have signed up for a game that only had woodcutting.

What you have done here - inadvertently - is hit upon my long standing reason as to why MMO's focusing on PvP simply do not work. MMORPG's are the wrong genre for people that just want to PvP. Outright PvP, where it is purely about players skill vs each other, is far better suited to match based gameplay, not to games with a persistent world.

This is the situation Crowfall tried to remedy with it's design.

At the end of the day though, if you are signing up for an MMORPG that has a persistent world, expect to have to play in that persistent world. If you do not want that - with ALL that this entails - play a lobby game instead.

I mean, that is why lobby games exist, to give people that only want to play part of a game somewhere to play that part of the game.

Noaani

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Sounds like a description of the Open Seas.

its all so tiresome...

Arya_Yeshe I disagree with you here. WoW was the best mmo I have played when it comes to gear balance. I mean, have you ever played Aion or Archeage where p2w dominated? In AA a p2w player could wipeout a whole raidgroup in 5 seconds.

I mean, this is an exaggeration.

If a pay to win player is beating a full raid (40 players in Archeage), then literally everyone in that raid was asleep. Even just a single group (5 people) would have been a hard fight for someone that spent a quarter million on their gear - and that is assuming those 5 players put no effort at all in to their gear.

Or, someone like me that spent years in the game, worked a lot of land (I had control of a third of all player land in Marcala for well over a year), and using a combat tracker to create a build to break the three popular builds, can come in and decimate that player that spent all that money.

Archeage absolutely was pay to win, but it's gear was balanced. It just took time to beat a big wallet.

Heartbeat

For a good example of what PvX means, look at Black Desert and Archeage, you'll be able to PvP at any time and there will be systems specifically for PvP like arenas and such, but PvE will be a huge and larger part of the game. PvE players dont have anything to worry about, ashes WILL be a game for them, no doubt.

Recently though it seems like there's a ton of fearmongering around "always-on" pvp and AoC being a PvP game, which simply is not true, what people mean by always on pvp is really just the flagging system in BDO, but the corruption system will be much harsher in Ashes compared to karma in BDO in order to prevent griefing.

Dygz

PvP is not always on in BDO.
I have never been attacked by another player in BDO.
I consider ArcheAge to be PvP-centric.

Azherae

Heartbeat wrote: »

For a good example of what PvX means, look at Black Desert and Archeage, you'll be able to PvP at any time and there will be systems specifically for PvP like arenas and such, but PvE will be a huge and larger part of the game. PvE players dont have anything to worry about, ashes WILL be a game for them, no doubt.

Recently though it seems like there's a ton of fearmongering around "always-on" pvp and AoC being a PvP game, which simply is not true, what people mean by always on pvp is really just the flagging system in BDO, but the corruption system will be much harsher in Ashes compared to karma in BDO in order to prevent griefing.

As an avid Not-Enjoyer of BDO:

You can't be attacked until level 50, and you must choose to level above that.

Karma does not affect most people, our server's resident perma-red Ninja just does as they like at all times.

There is nothing to protect in BDO, nothing drops, and the only loss most of the time is time if you weren't geared to the teeth in very specific ways or your Crystals break, neither of which are necessary for 'the sort of person who enjoys being Perma-Red'.

BDO is also not what most could define as a good PvE game.

Just because there IS an Environment doesn't mean there's a 'Versus'. If you don't go explicitly looking for a challenge, you can level and grind in BDO successfully without ever seeing your health drop until another player arrives.

'PvE' is just something to do to watch your bankroll tick up while you wait for an attacker, and they intend it that way.

Arya_Yeshe

Noaani wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

That's the paradox in RPG MMOs these days, the game runs around building your character but companies hide the pvp gear behind pve grinds

No, they hide the gear behind the game.

Again, if you want PvP without PvE, play a lobby game that simply doesnt have that PvE.

Your analogy of a wood cutter not being able to cut wood until they have done hundreds of hours of PvP is flawed, because the reverse is not true.

Sure, a player will need to PvE in order to get good gear and get to the level cap, but they are not prevented from PvP'ing during this period.

If that player wanted to cut wood complained that they had to PvP, I would point out to them that in playing this game, they signed up for both woodcutting AND PvP, and they shouldn't then complain about being able to do both at the same time - especially when their complaint is actually that they only want to do one of the two things they signed up to do, and so that being the case they should have signed up for a game that only had woodcutting.

What you have done here - inadvertently - is hit upon my long standing reason as to why MMO's focusing on PvP simply do not work. MMORPG's are the wrong genre for people that just want to PvP. Outright PvP, where it is purely about players skill vs each other, is far better suited to match based gameplay, not to games with a persistent world.

This is the situation Crowfall tried to remedy with it's design.

At the end of the day though, if you are signing up for an MMORPG that has a persistent world, expect to have to play in that persistent world. If you do not want that - with ALL that this entails - play a lobby game instead.

I mean, that is why lobby games exist, to give people that only want to play part of a game somewhere to play that part of the game.

I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP

I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?

This is the problem about soulbound stuff with no loot drops

If pvpers can buy their stuff, then it's fine... if pvp gear is all soulbound behind a wall of carebearing pve then its sad

People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy

Hopefully the mix of PvX will bring extreme danger to the dungeons and a lot of PvP there and PvPers will actually be required to escort the soft mushy greedy drone ant behaving bot aspirant carebears in their endless hoarding

Dygz

Ashes just has gear. No difference between PvP gear and PvE gear.
Almost nothing is soulbound.
According to the current design.

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP

So, play GW2 then?

I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?

Probably the same as a PvP player that wants to PvP but cant for a hundred hours.

Not sure what the point of this is though, since you are not talking about Ashes. In Ashes, that PvP player is able to attack players from day 1.

People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy

This would require segregating PvP and PvE gear from each other.

Since Intrepid specifically do not want to do this, it isnt an option.

Further,since the point of Ashes is for wealth/items to be created via PvE and redistributed via PvP, if the game started seeing PvP create wealth/items, it would then need to come up with a way to redistribute that via PvE.

This is now turning Ashes in to a totally different game.

What I will say though, is that since you can and will PvP while leveling up, and since you can and will PvP in order to gain wealth and then use that wealth to buy gear, your issues are kind of moot anyway.

You are basically arguing that a game that is not Ashes, that has a design that is not what Ashes has, sucks.

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