Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops. you cant kill mobs at low level? how do you plan to introduce abilities to players? so if your class has 30 abilities plus augments, should players start with everything unlocked? isn't that overwhelming? or maybe lets just give players 3 abilities max and that's it
KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops.
Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink
KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal. I think what you should be saying is. "I hate these 12 course meals, just give me dessert. "
KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops. you cant kill mobs at low level? how do you plan to introduce abilities to players? so if your class has 30 abilities plus augments, should players start with everything unlocked? isn't that overwhelming? or maybe lets just give players 3 abilities max and that's it Pacing is very difficult in an MMO. Players have to be introduced to the overarching and unique game systems in addition to how their class plays in a solo, small group, large groupm and raids setting. Leveling doesn't teach any of that. A tutorial should act like a buffet hall, once completed individual players can choose what they want to do and how they want to do it.
KingDDD wrote: » Nerror wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. So don't grind the levels. Do what you like and is fun for you, and eventually you'll get there. It's not a race. Play with some friends and have fun and XP will trickle in. If there is absolutely nothing that is fun for you on the way to max level, I dunno what to say other than the game might not be for you. I want levelling to take a long time, even for the no-lifers. I would also like to see a generous rested XP system for the more time-casual players to get a leg up. I want to be a pirate. The social aspects are engaging and my friends and I want to RP while we plunder the seas. Why must we spend time doing something none of us find fun in order to compete in the part we find interesting?
Nerror wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. So don't grind the levels. Do what you like and is fun for you, and eventually you'll get there. It's not a race. Play with some friends and have fun and XP will trickle in. If there is absolutely nothing that is fun for you on the way to max level, I dunno what to say other than the game might not be for you. I want levelling to take a long time, even for the no-lifers. I would also like to see a generous rested XP system for the more time-casual players to get a leg up.
KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
KingDDD wrote: » Let me customize my experience with what I enjoy rather than being forced to do things I find irrelevant because you prioritize an arbitrary variable next to your character portrait.
Wandering Mist wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops. you cant kill mobs at low level? how do you plan to introduce abilities to players? so if your class has 30 abilities plus augments, should players start with everything unlocked? isn't that overwhelming? or maybe lets just give players 3 abilities max and that's it Pacing is very difficult in an MMO. Players have to be introduced to the overarching and unique game systems in addition to how their class plays in a solo, small group, large groupm and raids setting. Leveling doesn't teach any of that. A tutorial should act like a buffet hall, once completed individual players can choose what they want to do and how they want to do it. I see what you're saying, and you're right that it's hard to teach players how to work in a group or raid environment while levelling. That said, I feel a lot more could be done to teach players while levelling, mostly about their own class abilities. One of the biggest hurdles players encounter when they first reach max level is they are suddenly having to use abilities that they have never had to use while levelling. Taking WoW as an example, most classes get some kind of CC or spell interrupt, and all healers get buffs and debuff-cleansing spells, yet none of these are needed during the levelling (you can literally get to max level just by spamming a single button if you like). This means that once they get to max level, even IF the player remembers they have those abilities, they won't have developed the muscle memory to be able to use them effectively. That's partly why casual LFR dungeons and raids are such a coinflipping mess. Compare that to a game like Sekiro, where early on you are introduced to the counter mechanic. The difference between Sekiro and WoW (aside from the difficulty) is that once Sekiro has taught you the skill in a tutorial, it regularly gives you enemies that require you to use it. This is crucial in helping the player to develop the muscle memory needed to complete the later parts of the game. Unless you force players to use an ability by putting them in situations where it's needed, they won't use it and will forget about it.
Nerror wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Nerror wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. So don't grind the levels. Do what you like and is fun for you, and eventually you'll get there. It's not a race. Play with some friends and have fun and XP will trickle in. If there is absolutely nothing that is fun for you on the way to max level, I dunno what to say other than the game might not be for you. I want levelling to take a long time, even for the no-lifers. I would also like to see a generous rested XP system for the more time-casual players to get a leg up. I want to be a pirate. The social aspects are engaging and my friends and I want to RP while we plunder the seas. Why must we spend time doing something none of us find fun in order to compete in the part we find interesting? Then play Sea of Thieves if you want to be a pirate straight away. MMORGPs are more about the journey, where you grow your characters from fairly generic noobs to, in your case, fearsome pirates. If you skip the journey and the character growth, you kill one of the most important core pillars of the game. It's simply the wrong genre for what you want.
novercalis wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. currently it's 45 days casual grinding avg to hit max level, which is too short imo. I hope they extend it. Pacing matters - the slower things are, the significance things begins to feel. Milestones should feel like miles, not inches. Players or young gamers have become impatience and addicted to constant dopamine - slow down and appreciate the smaller things in life or in-game life. It's not a race, it's a marathon. It's not reach the end, nor should there be an end - it's the journey along the way.
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that. Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff. If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day. Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling
Trenker wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Let me customize my experience with what I enjoy rather than being forced to do things I find irrelevant because you prioritize an arbitrary variable next to your character portrait. In a game with levels, if you could bypass the 'irrelevant grind', then what level would you chose to be? In a game with content suited to all levels, would you not miss that content if you were your ideal level? Would you prefer a game where all content is playable to all characters, and level is irrelevant?
KingDDD wrote: » Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that. Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff. If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day. Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling Leveling doesn't teach any of that. Using WoW as an example, how many players in 2005 could play their character to any modicum of a degree once they reached level cap. The difference in skill level (talent build, gear choices, APM) between the Classic community and the Vanilla community illustrates that leveling does not teach anything. As for the journey aspect, let players decide their own journey. Leveling hinders the ability for players to decide how and where they want to exist in a virtual world.
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal. Oh, you want to do a food analogy? An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way. What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that. If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes. In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied. Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
