Kassual wrote: » For some reason I went through the first 50 pages of this thread looping around the same arguments and I'm amazed that we've managed to drag the discussion to page 186. But I guess that's what happens when new people, like me... chime in on the discussion and some people are very persistent on bringing up their opinion on the matter. Therefore I'm not sure if I should be doing this but here we go. : ) Noaani wrote: » No, I'm not. I'm waiting for you to reasonably and logically respond to the above point that tools are perfectly valid in the right hands, even if not great in the wrong hands. The point you would need to make in reply to that is in regards to the effect it would have if some people have access to a tool that jot everyone has, as that is literally the only valid direction you can take things. Obviously, I have a reply to that, but I cant provide said reply until you make the point. Your other options are to opt to not further the discussion, or attempting to redirect the discussion. The only real redirect you have is the notion that people wint agree, which is essentially a statement of understanding that you have no reason as to why I shouldnt have a combat tracker as long as you dont have to use one. I'm not sure if there have been any updates on this matter, but this was the situation on page 50, someone please correct me if something isn't true. AOC doesn't have build in DPS meters/ACTs IS doesn't support the use of 3rd party tools IS considers the use of 3rd party tools being against the rules Use of 3rd party tools could be bannable offense? Assuming everything above is still true, I think that some having access to ACTs while others don't, could be harmful especially for one specific group of players; competitive players who don't want to use ACTs. Resources in AOC will be limited and contested, and players with ACTs will have competitive advantage over the players that don't use ACTs. If the use of ACTs were to be allowed but made optional, it wouldn't really be optional to the players/guilds who want to be competitive, on equal footing with players/guilds who are using ACTs. From the 50 pages that I read, I can say that majority of the people don't seem to want DPS meters/ACTs in AOC. So majority of players don't want these tools in the game and allowing the use of these tools, even if optional, would force a lot of players to use them even if they wouldn't want to. Therefore I'm happy with the direction that IS is taking regarding DPS meters, assuming my information on this is up to date.
Noaani wrote: » No, I'm not. I'm waiting for you to reasonably and logically respond to the above point that tools are perfectly valid in the right hands, even if not great in the wrong hands. The point you would need to make in reply to that is in regards to the effect it would have if some people have access to a tool that jot everyone has, as that is literally the only valid direction you can take things. Obviously, I have a reply to that, but I cant provide said reply until you make the point. Your other options are to opt to not further the discussion, or attempting to redirect the discussion. The only real redirect you have is the notion that people wint agree, which is essentially a statement of understanding that you have no reason as to why I shouldnt have a combat tracker as long as you dont have to use one.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » You know in EVE Online there's none of that, the advanced IA will start the aggro by positioning most of the times, so the players will move the player with better tank to the aggro position. Then the AI may have a 30-60s timer for the next aggro switch, the aggro switch will go to the person who dealt more damage. This is how you know who has more DPS, the aggro will rotate around the players with the biggest DPS. If you are the aggro target and you have no tank, then you gotta lower your DPS and let someone else take the next aggro switch. Works for me, it clearly indicates who is the top dps and there's no meters or parsers.
Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » You know in EVE Online there's none of that, the advanced IA will start the aggro by positioning most of the times, so the players will move the player with better tank to the aggro position. Then the AI may have a 30-60s timer for the next aggro switch, the aggro switch will go to the person who dealt more damage. This is how you know who has more DPS, the aggro will rotate around the players with the biggest DPS. If you are the aggro target and you have no tank, then you gotta lower your DPS and let someone else take the next aggro switch. Works for me, it clearly indicates who is the top dps and there's no meters or parsers. Right, that's a nice, simplistic system that a certain level of player/tactician can understand and handle without a tracker. So if we were to continue discussion based on this premise, it would become about how 'that's not really hard enough content', or 'that has nothing to do with trackers'. Whether you understand that yourself or not isn't even really that relevant since the bases are different. If you enjoy games where that's all you need or want, then good. Some players, particularly 'punishingly difficult PvE enjoyers', don't find such games engaging at all, so they are coming from a different place. I have the fortune of being that type of player but not personally needing the Tracker as often, but the level of gameplay that I enjoy because it's at my personal limit of what I can do without the Tracker is the level where many other people want one. And those people would have one, and then I'd be disadvantaged for 'playing as intended'. And then like an idiot, I will keep doing so until either "I get caught in a wave of mass bans with false positives for being a savant" or "The game falls apart because the advantage for those who actually use the trackers is too great for anyone to compete with them". I expect this outcome, whereas Noaani expects the 'People like me won't even play because it will be BDO PvE tier'.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » You know in EVE Online there's none of that, the advanced IA will start the aggro by positioning most of the times, so the players will move the player with better tank to the aggro position. Then the AI may have a 30-60s timer for the next aggro switch, the aggro switch will go to the person who dealt more damage. This is how you know who has more DPS, the aggro will rotate around the players with the biggest DPS. If you are the aggro target and you have no tank, then you gotta lower your DPS and let someone else take the next aggro switch. Works for me, it clearly indicates who is the top dps and there's no meters or parsers. Right, that's a nice, simplistic system that a certain level of player/tactician can understand and handle without a tracker. So if we were to continue discussion based on this premise, it would become about how 'that's not really hard enough content', or 'that has nothing to do with trackers'. Whether you understand that yourself or not isn't even really that relevant since the bases are different. If you enjoy games where that's all you need or want, then good. Some players, particularly 'punishingly difficult PvE enjoyers', don't find such games engaging at all, so they are coming from a different place. I have the fortune of being that type of player but not personally needing the Tracker as often, but the level of gameplay that I enjoy because it's at my personal limit of what I can do without the Tracker is the level where many other people want one. And those people would have one, and then I'd be disadvantaged for 'playing as intended'. And then like an idiot, I will keep doing so until either "I get caught in a wave of mass bans with false positives for being a savant" or "The game falls apart because the advantage for those who actually use the trackers is too great for anyone to compete with them". I expect this outcome, whereas Noaani expects the 'People like me won't even play because it will be BDO PvE tier'. In EVE's fitting window, is where you setup your ship, all its modules and subsystems, the window perfectly tells you your DPS, resistances, literally everything. So no metters are needed, because EVE's fitting is so vast and rich that everybody says it is a mini-game within a bigger game, people spent literally hours fitting ships and enjoying. Many people sometimes didn't even undock the ship for the day. It is also possible simulate future fittings, because the in the fitting window it is available all items and all it's variants in the game! I used meters in WoW, they are great for knowing the results of the build.... it is necessary because WoW character window sucks. I understand if you get frustrated by having no meters in AoC, another way of countering this problem would be having an amazing character window where you can simulate builds even with items that you didn't acquire yet... just like EVE lets you do it (it also shows all the dps split through damage types)
Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » You know in EVE Online there's none of that, the advanced IA will start the aggro by positioning most of the times, so the players will move the player with better tank to the aggro position. Then the AI may have a 30-60s timer for the next aggro switch, the aggro switch will go to the person who dealt more damage. This is how you know who has more DPS, the aggro will rotate around the players with the biggest DPS. If you are the aggro target and you have no tank, then you gotta lower your DPS and let someone else take the next aggro switch. Works for me, it clearly indicates who is the top dps and there's no meters or parsers. Right, that's a nice, simplistic system that a certain level of player/tactician can understand and handle without a tracker. So if we were to continue discussion based on this premise, it would become about how 'that's not really hard enough content', or 'that has nothing to do with trackers'. Whether you understand that yourself or not isn't even really that relevant since the bases are different. If you enjoy games where that's all you need or want, then good. Some players, particularly 'punishingly difficult PvE enjoyers', don't find such games engaging at all, so they are coming from a different place. I have the fortune of being that type of player but not personally needing the Tracker as often, but the level of gameplay that I enjoy because it's at my personal limit of what I can do without the Tracker is the level where many other people want one. And those people would have one, and then I'd be disadvantaged for 'playing as intended'. And then like an idiot, I will keep doing so until either "I get caught in a wave of mass bans with false positives for being a savant" or "The game falls apart because the advantage for those who actually use the trackers is too great for anyone to compete with them". I expect this outcome, whereas Noaani expects the 'People like me won't even play because it will be BDO PvE tier'. In EVE's fitting window, is where you setup your ship, all its modules and subsystems, the window perfectly tells you your DPS, resistances, literally everything. So no metters are needed, because EVE's fitting is so vast and rich that everybody says it is a mini-game within a bigger game, people spent literally hours fitting ships and enjoying. Many people sometimes didn't even undock the ship for the day. It is also possible simulate future fittings, because the in the fitting window it is available all items and all it's variants in the game! I used meters in WoW, they are great for knowing the results of the build.... it is necessary because WoW character window sucks. I understand if you get frustrated by having no meters in AoC, another way of countering this problem would be having an amazing character window where you can simulate builds even with items that you didn't acquire yet... just like EVE lets you do it (it also shows all the dps split through damage types) For some people this would be enough. For some people this would be too much. It all depends on their goals. What if people don't want to feel forced to do that? What if people kick someone else from a group/guild because 'You can just look at the stat screen and simulate the best build for that Class, why would you even want to waste our time getting an item for your build that doesn't match the best build for this content and doesn't appear in any of the builds for the content in our region?' That's kind of the point. There are definitely players who would be upset if the game offered an extremely detailed stat screen if other people started asking for a screenshot of that screen because 'toxicity'. And then there are definitely players who will figure out how to screenshot a good build as if they have it, cover it with cosmetics, and use their normal build, and fail the expectations of the group because they 'don't feel like they should have to conform and actually have all the items of the best build'. That's why it's easy for me, at least, to be neutral. People who want the information will have it. Those who don't, won't have it, and as long as those people don't mix, all is good for me, because I can adapt to whatever the game requires for me to enjoy the experience type I like.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Another thing has over other games, EVE has communi Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » You know in EVE Online there's none of that, the advanced IA will start the aggro by positioning most of the times, so the players will move the player with better tank to the aggro position. Then the AI may have a 30-60s timer for the next aggro switch, the aggro switch will go to the person who dealt more damage. This is how you know who has more DPS, the aggro will rotate around the players with the biggest DPS. If you are the aggro target and you have no tank, then you gotta lower your DPS and let someone else take the next aggro switch. Works for me, it clearly indicates who is the top dps and there's no meters or parsers. Right, that's a nice, simplistic system that a certain level of player/tactician can understand and handle without a tracker. So if we were to continue discussion based on this premise, it would become about how 'that's not really hard enough content', or 'that has nothing to do with trackers'. Whether you understand that yourself or not isn't even really that relevant since the bases are different. If you enjoy games where that's all you need or want, then good. Some players, particularly 'punishingly difficult PvE enjoyers', don't find such games engaging at all, so they are coming from a different place. I have the fortune of being that type of player but not personally needing the Tracker as often, but the level of gameplay that I enjoy because it's at my personal limit of what I can do without the Tracker is the level where many other people want one. And those people would have one, and then I'd be disadvantaged for 'playing as intended'. And then like an idiot, I will keep doing so until either "I get caught in a wave of mass bans with false positives for being a savant" or "The game falls apart because the advantage for those who actually use the trackers is too great for anyone to compete with them". I expect this outcome, whereas Noaani expects the 'People like me won't even play because it will be BDO PvE tier'. In EVE's fitting window, is where you setup your ship, all its modules and subsystems, the window perfectly tells you your DPS, resistances, literally everything. So no metters are needed, because EVE's fitting is so vast and rich that everybody says it is a mini-game within a bigger game, people spent literally hours fitting ships and enjoying. Many people sometimes didn't even undock the ship for the day. It is also possible simulate future fittings, because the in the fitting window it is available all items and all it's variants in the game! I used meters in WoW, they are great for knowing the results of the build.... it is necessary because WoW character window sucks. I understand if you get frustrated by having no meters in AoC, another way of countering this problem would be having an amazing character window where you can simulate builds even with items that you didn't acquire yet... just like EVE lets you do it (it also shows all the dps split through damage types) For some people this would be enough. For some people this would be too much. It all depends on their goals. What if people don't want to feel forced to do that? What if people kick someone else from a group/guild because 'You can just look at the stat screen and simulate the best build for that Class, why would you even want to waste our time getting an item for your build that doesn't match the best build for this content and doesn't appear in any of the builds for the content in our region?' That's kind of the point. There are definitely players who would be upset if the game offered an extremely detailed stat screen if other people started asking for a screenshot of that screen because 'toxicity'. And then there are definitely players who will figure out how to screenshot a good build as if they have it, cover it with cosmetics, and use their normal build, and fail the expectations of the group because they 'don't feel like they should have to conform and actually have all the items of the best build'. That's why it's easy for me, at least, to be neutral. People who want the information will have it. Those who don't, won't have it, and as long as those people don't mix, all is good for me, because I can adapt to whatever the game requires for me to enjoy the experience type I like. You are perfectly describing the carebear paranoia! In EVE, everybody use the fitting window in simulation mode and simulate other people's ships before fighting them... then the other guy changes something and transform his ship in a bait ship. It is fun
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » @Azherae the problem is this: why everything is a problem?! Tell me something you would like in this matter, I am very curious about knowing what "the other side" thinks about such trivial things
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » I will pass on that this time, but I'm watching People are pretty much walking in circles in this topic
Azherae wrote: » Kassual wrote: » For some reason I went through the first 50 pages of this thread looping around the same arguments and I'm amazed that we've managed to drag the discussion to page 186. But I guess that's what happens when new people, like me... chime in on the discussion and some people are very persistent on bringing up their opinion on the matter. Therefore I'm not sure if I should be doing this but here we go. : ) Noaani wrote: » No, I'm not. I'm waiting for you to reasonably and logically respond to the above point that tools are perfectly valid in the right hands, even if not great in the wrong hands. The point you would need to make in reply to that is in regards to the effect it would have if some people have access to a tool that jot everyone has, as that is literally the only valid direction you can take things. Obviously, I have a reply to that, but I cant provide said reply until you make the point. Your other options are to opt to not further the discussion, or attempting to redirect the discussion. The only real redirect you have is the notion that people wint agree, which is essentially a statement of understanding that you have no reason as to why I shouldnt have a combat tracker as long as you dont have to use one. I'm not sure if there have been any updates on this matter, but this was the situation on page 50, someone please correct me if something isn't true. AOC doesn't have build in DPS meters/ACTs IS doesn't support the use of 3rd party tools IS considers the use of 3rd party tools being against the rules Use of 3rd party tools could be bannable offense? Assuming everything above is still true, I think that some having access to ACTs while others don't, could be harmful especially for one specific group of players; competitive players who don't want to use ACTs. Resources in AOC will be limited and contested, and players with ACTs will have competitive advantage over the players that don't use ACTs. If the use of ACTs were to be allowed but made optional, it wouldn't really be optional to the players/guilds who want to be competitive, on equal footing with players/guilds who are using ACTs. From the 50 pages that I read, I can say that majority of the people don't seem to want DPS meters/ACTs in AOC. So majority of players don't want these tools in the game and allowing the use of these tools, even if optional, would force a lot of players to use them even if they wouldn't want to. Therefore I'm happy with the direction that IS is taking regarding DPS meters, assuming my information on this is up to date. Yep, you got it, the thread takes a specific 'turn' after that, which keeps coming up, so in case you do care, and since I'm pretty neutral...[Those who support or don't care about ACTs] then try to figure out if [those who dislike them], understand that the current stance won't avoid them (similar to what happens in FFXIV).[Those people] then ask clarifying questions (and argue with two specific posters), many times getting clarification or giving clarification (about the fact that these tools are mostly unavoidable/undetectable)[Those who dislike them] either 'retain their opinion, not caring that people will have them, only that they don't become the visible meta', or 'change their minds when they learn that these tools can't really be prevented if a combat log exists or if information is presented to players visually'. So the 'argument', relative to your understanding, is 'Do you understand that nothing will prevent competitive players/guilds from having or using these, all you can prevent is those users talking openly about them?' with a few recent 'organic' posts more on the 'support for ACTs' side. So the same question would go to you. If you are happy with the direction, is it because you don't care about whether or not competitive groups use them as long as they can be disciplined for using them if someone leaks the fact that they do (FFXIV stylle) or are you happy because you don't actually understand that no game that presents visual data in this era can avoid having these, or reliably detect them? Sometimes people have stances that come off a bit weird to the supporters/neutrals when it comes down to that question, and the thread balloons another few pages while one supporter (Noaani) and one neutral (me) half-argue with claims from one neutral (Mag7spy) who sometimes... acts like an opponent (but as far as I can tell doesn't care that a combat log exists and also understands that people can write parsers for those easily, so is mainly arguing for a design space that wouldn't cause this to be very beneficial). So the thread isn't really about 'DPS Meters' at all at this point, it's about the concept of difficulty in content.
Kassual wrote: » I want to take DPS out of the damn pedestal so that it doesn't determine players' value.
Dygz wrote: » If the devs provide DPS meters, we can expect the content to be designed to require them. MMORPG content should not be designed to require DPS meters as tools - which is why the devs should not include DPS meters.
Dygz wrote: » If the devs provide DPS meters, we can expect the content to be designed to require them. MMORPG content should not be designed to require DPS meters as tools - which is why the devs should not include DPS meters."Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group." ---Steven
Dygz wrote: » I'm not sure I understand your question, but.... In any RPG, I expect to be able to build a character with high Accuracy and/or high Evasion stats. But, I don't need to know the stats of my group mates or dictate how they allocate their stats. I also don't need to review the combat stats and try to determine the most efficient path to success. I just need to be able to determine a viable path to success based on how my group mates use their abilities. And, because it's an RPG, that is best done without reducing everything to DPS meter numbers. We should not be looking at a combat tracker to evaluate who, individually, has a low DPS. Rather, we should all be striving to synergize our Active Skills and Augments with our group mates to stack our strengths and shore up our weaknesses. We shouldn't need to rely on combat trackers to figure out how to do that. I don't need a combat tracker to know how to min/max my stats.
Azherae wrote: » I've never asked actually. How do you feel about the Accuracy and Evasion stats and their effects on player effectiveness and 'DPS'?
