Ashes of Creation on Linux/Proton Compatibility Layer support

Hello Glorious Ashes Dev Team and Ashes Community,

I recognize that Linux support as been spoken on a few times in the past, but if I and other's like me don't push for it, I fear it may be lost to time and the black hole of statistics I don't believe accurately reflect the number of individuals that would utilize it.

With the adoption of Unreal Engine 5 I wonder if now is the time to ask for a definitive answer from Steven on the topic of Linux support. Either directly via Native Support (Please for the Love of God Steven I can't keep playing Ancient MMO's like WURM.) or via the use of Proton Compatibility Layer. Now I know there are some out there who will say "But Roman, don't you need to install Steam in order to use Proton?"

Well, as for Proton, you do not need Steam to utilize it, it is open source and stand-alone.

With all of that said, I wonder if those more knowledgeable than I could elaborate if due to the transition to UE5 it may actually be the time to look heavily into supporting Linux Natively.

If any Devs read this, could the challenges of developing for Linux as well be elaborated on?

And for those in the community reading, if you are a Linux user that needs a new MMO to play and doesn't want to go back to Windows to play one, or a Windows user trying desperately to escape Windows and MAC hegemony, respond to this post to show support!

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nanfoodle

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Only have to say, 3 million Steam Decks sold and growing. This could be a real opportunity.

I don't really see steam decks as being great for MMO's.

Everyone I know that has one has a gaming PC, and using their steam decks for gaming while out. The thing there is, you dont have a great internet connect most of the time, and so probably dont want to be playing a PvP based MMO.

I use my steam deck to MMO all the time. Its great!!!! On the go I tether it too my phone and do crafting while I wait for my wife when she is in a store. Linux gaming has grown allot over the past 2 years because of steam deck. Many are building gaming PC's using Steam OS as well. I know I am not the only one, as there are many guides to get WoW, ESO and the like running on Steam Decks. Its Epic.

For crafting I could see it, but not for general play.

I wouldnt call that a win, nor would I call it "epic".

One mans lame is another persons epic. Some of the best MMO time has been spent crafting, gathering and grinding NPCs while watching a movie with my wife. Zen gaming time is epic.

Yeah, in some games for sure.

Try that zen gaming grinding NPC's in Ashes and see how long that zen state lasts for.

Keep in mind, I am specifically saying that the Steam Deck wont be used that much specifically for Ashes, for the reasons outlined above - I am not talking about MMO's in general.

I think your wrong but that's what forums are for. This will not be my first PvP MMO. I'm used to dealing with random PvP in any form it comes. I know exactly what I'm asking for. I'm also 100% know what Ashes is. I'm an OG backer and been following the game closely. Again, I know what I am asking for. Peace out

Right, so you've spent the last few posts talking about crafting in MMO's on your steam deck, and when it is pointed out that PvP in Ashes is unavoidable, all of a sudden you're like "well of course I PvP on my steam deck as well!".

Sure bud, no doubt you just forgot to mention it before now.

I see your one of the forum peeps that thinks there is only one valid point of view. Fine I will tell you some of my zen gaming in PvP games.

In ESO, right in Cyrodiil I used to farm crafting resources. You watch what part of the map was getting heat and just avoid the large groups. You would run into one or two people or small groups of people. A community gesture to show you where not there to PvP was to go into block stance. Most people would just leave you be. Sure some people would PvP anyways but that's the game.

Used to do much the same in Liniage. I don't get upset when you die in PvP even when your not logging into PvP, because that's the game you bought into. I was at the launch of DAoC and even there, playing my Minstrel, learned how to enjoying playing solo in the PvP battleground. Ashes will be no different.

Ashes will have a community that will have their own unique tells when someone does not want to PvP, most will respect that and some will not. Guilds often have large number of players that will come to the aid of crafters that get harassed by someone when they do not want to PvP. This is a fact. Ashes will be no different.

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped. I been gaming since pong was something new and flashy. So please, don't worry about me, I again, know what I'm asking for.

Taleof2Cities

nanfoodle wrote: »

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped.

No one is stopping you from using Steam Deck to play Ashes.

However, the naïveté starts to seep in when players hold on to that glimmer of hope that farming runs will be incident-free … and then trying to defend themself while confined to the “robust” suite of controls and UI on Steam Deck.

nanfoodle

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped.

No one is stopping you from using Steam Deck to play Ashes.

However, the naïveté starts to seep in when players hold on to that glimmer of hope that farming runs will be incident-free … and then trying to defend themself while confined to the “robust” suite of controls and UI on Steam Deck.

That's not even the topic of this discussion but ok. Ty

Azherae

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped.

No one is stopping you from using Steam Deck to play Ashes.

However, the naïveté starts to seep in when players hold on to that glimmer of hope that farming runs will be incident-free … and then trying to defend themself while confined to the “robust” suite of controls and UI on Steam Deck.

Wait, how are the controls and UI the problem?

Wouldn't the issue be the frame drops/lag? A Steam deck is basically the equivalent of most modern controllers or better, and it has both of the alternate internal input mapping systems, right?

(I thought this conversation was seriously about input lag making PvP hard)

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped.

No one is stopping you from using Steam Deck to play Ashes.

However, the naïveté starts to seep in when players hold on to that glimmer of hope that farming runs will be incident-free … and then trying to defend themself while confined to the “robust” suite of controls and UI on Steam Deck.

Wait, how are the controls and UI the problem?

Wouldn't the issue be the frame drops/lag? A Steam deck is basically the equivalent of most modern controllers or better, and it has both of the alternate internal input mapping systems, right?

(I thought this conversation was seriously about input lag making PvP hard)

It is more about latency than anything else to me, but input is a valid point.

While some may like controllers, there is literally no arguing the fact that when developers first started allowing cross platform play (specifically in FPS games), console players were absolutely smashed by PC players, forcing developers to need to add in mechanics to assist said console players.

Basically, controllers are only an accepted means of input when mouse and keyboard are an option because developers give controllers an assist.

This isnt the case in some MMO's, but it is the case in some more action oriented MMO's (Planetside 2, for example).

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Only have to say, 3 million Steam Decks sold and growing. This could be a real opportunity.

I don't really see steam decks as being great for MMO's.

Everyone I know that has one has a gaming PC, and using their steam decks for gaming while out. The thing there is, you dont have a great internet connect most of the time, and so probably dont want to be playing a PvP based MMO.

I use my steam deck to MMO all the time. Its great!!!! On the go I tether it too my phone and do crafting while I wait for my wife when she is in a store. Linux gaming has grown allot over the past 2 years because of steam deck. Many are building gaming PC's using Steam OS as well. I know I am not the only one, as there are many guides to get WoW, ESO and the like running on Steam Decks. Its Epic.

For crafting I could see it, but not for general play.

I wouldnt call that a win, nor would I call it "epic".

One mans lame is another persons epic. Some of the best MMO time has been spent crafting, gathering and grinding NPCs while watching a movie with my wife. Zen gaming time is epic.

Yeah, in some games for sure.

Try that zen gaming grinding NPC's in Ashes and see how long that zen state lasts for.

Keep in mind, I am specifically saying that the Steam Deck wont be used that much specifically for Ashes, for the reasons outlined above - I am not talking about MMO's in general.

I think your wrong but that's what forums are for. This will not be my first PvP MMO. I'm used to dealing with random PvP in any form it comes. I know exactly what I'm asking for. I'm also 100% know what Ashes is. I'm an OG backer and been following the game closely. Again, I know what I am asking for. Peace out

Right, so you've spent the last few posts talking about crafting in MMO's on your steam deck, and when it is pointed out that PvP in Ashes is unavoidable, all of a sudden you're like "well of course I PvP on my steam deck as well!".

Sure bud, no doubt you just forgot to mention it before now.

I see your one of the forum peeps that thinks there is only one valid point of view. Fine I will tell you some of my zen gaming in PvP games.

In ESO, right in Cyrodiil I used to farm crafting resources. You watch what part of the map was getting heat and just avoid the large groups. You would run into one or two people or small groups of people. A community gesture to show you where not there to PvP was to go into block stance. Most people would just leave you be. Sure some people would PvP anyways but that's the game.

Used to do much the same in Liniage. I don't get upset when you die in PvP even when your not logging into PvP, because that's the game you bought into. I was at the launch of DAoC and even there, playing my Minstrel, learned how to enjoying playing solo in the PvP battleground. Ashes will be no different.

Ashes will have a community that will have their own unique tells when someone does not want to PvP, most will respect that and some will not. Guilds often have large number of players that will come to the aid of crafters that get harassed by someone when they do not want to PvP. This is a fact. Ashes will be no different.

It's nice you are worried I don't know what's I'm asking for and that you want to protect me from what you think is my naivete but I have been MMOing since the very first MMO dropped. I been gaming since pong was something new and flashy. So please, don't worry about me, I again, know what I'm asking for.

So, your answer here is basically that you use your steam deck to harvest in PvP games and avoid PvP.

My point isnt about "protecting" you. I dont give a shit about you.

My point is that any argument that the steam deck is a valid reason as to why Intrepid should ad Linux support is simply false.

There may or may not be other reasons for them to add it, but the steam deck simply isnt one.

Your insistence that you could use it just fine if you avoid PvP only backs up my assertion.

nanfoodle

"My point is that any argument that the steam deck is a valid reason as to why Intrepid should ad Linux support is simply false."

Shows how little you grasp. 3 million Linux gamers growth in the past 2 years, most never using Linux before the Steam Deck. The advancements in proton has made it easy to take windows games run them on Linux platform.

Developers now only need to support proton and make sure their anticheat software supports Linux. How I use it was just in reply to the dumb comments you made about how useless it would be. How others use it, is all on them.

Steam OS Gaming rigs has become a real thing, this goes beyond the Steam Deck. IS needs to do very little to make Ashes playable on Linux. Support proton and anticheat is all they need to do, thanks to Valve and their Steam Deck.

Its not the same story from 3 years ago. More and more people are trying to find ways get to away from Windows Gaming, especially with the pushing of ads that continue to grow on the platform.

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Shows how little you grasp. 3 million Linux gamers growth in the past 2 years, most never using Linux before the Steam Deck. The advancements in proton has made it easy to take windows games run them on Linux platform.

I mean, we literally just went over all of this.

I know many, many people with steam decks (and other portable PC's, a number of which are windows based). Most MMO players I know don't even consider buying a portable PC though.

Literally zero of those people even consider playing MMORPG's on them.

You do. Good for you. You're an outlier, yay!

The thing is, if most people with a steam deck aren't going to even consider playing an MMO (even if outliers exist). Those small few that do, as you have said, have no real option other than to avoid what is arguably the most important aspect of Ashes - PvP.

So, 3 million players out of hundreds of millions of gamers have a steam deck (already a really small percentage of overall gamers), and the bulk of that few are in the hands of non-MMO gamers, and the small handful that are in the hands of people that would play an MMO won't be able to participate in the major aspect of Ashes - and so are likely to simply pick a different game.

All of these things add up to the realization that no one is likely to pick Ashes up specifically due to any steam deck support Intrepid could add. Literally the only thing it would do is give some people that are already playing the ability to play a fraction of the game while on the go.

In other words, Intrepid don't stand to make any actual return on any effort they put in to make this happen.

nanfoodle

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Shows how little you grasp. 3 million Linux gamers growth in the past 2 years, most never using Linux before the Steam Deck. The advancements in proton has made it easy to take windows games run them on Linux platform.

Literally zero of those people even consider playing MMORPG's on them.

This is an assumption that is false. There are many guides, channels and youtubers that help people do this. In my circle friends of gamers, I know many that use their decks for MMOing. Also, as I mentioned that you keep skipping over. Steam OS does such a great job at gaming. People are building for gaming PCs or duel booting to play games on Steam OS. This is a growing market that needs little to support. You dont need to make a Linux copy of the game. Just support Proton and Pick an anticheat that supports seeing the Linux. Its not allot of man power.

Taleof2Cities

nanfoodle wrote: »

This is a growing market that needs little to support. You dont need to make a Linux copy of the game. Just support Proton and Pick an anticheat that supports seeing the Linux. Its not allot of man power.

Now we’re back to my question again: If it’s so easy to support Proton, why isn’t this a slam dunk for Intrepid?

Other than the anti-cheat workaround pointed out by Noaani, what are the Linux proponents in this thread not telling us?

nanfoodle

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

This is a growing market that needs little to support. You dont need to make a Linux copy of the game. Just support Proton and Pick an anticheat that supports seeing the Linux. Its not allot of man power.

Now we’re back to my question again: If it’s so easy to support Proton, why isn’t this a slam dunk for Intrepid?

Other than the anti-cheat workaround pointed out by Noaani, what are the Linux proponents in this thread not telling us?

There are many. MMOs often have problems with people not keeping their drives up to date. Causing all sorts of problems. Linux drives are baked into the OS. Most driver updates are just part of the OS updates. There remain various components within Windows that are susceptible to breaking hardware drivers. Windows updates are notorious for this. The Linux OS can be installed on pretty much any machine and is much less likely to give you driver misery. This means less developer time to keep the Linux side running smoothly. And as stated, this part of gaming is growing rapidly. I know for myself and I am not alone. What MMO I play will depend on the support of this growing demand. I want to se Ashes capture that.

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Literally zero of those people even consider playing MMORPG's on them.

This is an assumption that is false. [/quote]
I mean, you missed the context.

I was specifically talking about people I know.

It isnt an assumption, because I have talked to these people about this.

It isnt a case of needing a tutorial. It isnt as if it is hard to get running.

It is a case of the actual limitations of a steam deck as a setup, especially when paired with a tethered phone for a connection. Literally every person I have talked to has said the same thing - they would rather play all of a singleplayer game (Factorio is the current popular choice among my friends on steam decks) than play a part of an MMO.

You cant just go saying things are assumptions when they are clearly not. You also cant just remove context from someones point in order to alter the meaning.

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

There are many. MMOs often have problems with people not keeping their drives up to date.

I mean, this is just made up.

MMO's have literally zero problems with this, as it doesnt affect them at all.

nanfoodle

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There are many. MMOs often have problems with people not keeping their drives up to date.

I mean, this is just made up.

MMO's have literally zero problems with this, as it doesnt affect them at all.

You have proven by this post you lack the knowledge to have an intelligent conversation on this topic. It's ok. My posts were never directed to you

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There are many. MMOs often have problems with people not keeping their drives up to date.

I mean, this is just made up.

MMO's have literally zero problems with this, as it doesnt affect them at all.

You have proven by this post you lack the knowledge to have an intelligent conversation on this topic. It's ok. My posts were never directed to you

See, you missed it.

I did exactly what you did to my post that you quoted earlier - I quoted a portion of your post, took it out of context and attempted to use it to disprove your own point.

Your post was in relation to Linux. I took that part out making it appear as if it was in relation to Windows, and my point was spot on in relation to windows (Nvidia, AMD, Intel and DirectX developers concern themselves with drivers in the Windows ecosystem, third party developers do not).

So, I did literally the same thing you did, and tour first and only comment on my actions were that you thought it made me unfit to participate in this discussion.

What exactly does that say about you and your fitness (or lack thereof) to be a part of this discussion?

I mean, you can't realistically make the claim that me doing a thing makes me unfit (ignoring the fact I did it on purpose to elicit exactly the above reaponse), yet you doing the same thing doesnt make you unfit - so which is it?

unknown

This content has been removed.

perpleplex

This post seems to have gone off the rails a bit, but there's definitely a lot of valid points here, from both sides.

I would say that quoting the small percentage of players on linux can be misleading. I like to believe that a motivating factor of that is simply that those players HAVE to stay on Windows because Linux support is lacking in games they want to play. If there was truly equal support across most games, I'd expect that number to be a lot higher (maybe 10%?), and quickly growing. I am pretty confident in saying that most people are starting to get fed up with Windows, it's insane in-OS advertisements, and all of its bloatware. But maybe my strong disdain of these things is causing me to misjudge the tolerance others have for this stuff.

However, I do agree this isn't Intrepid's problem to solve. They should do what allows them to provide the best player experience possible. But it would be nice if they didn't commit to decisions that would make it prohibitively difficult to support Linux in the future (e.g. anti-cheat software).

I preordered this game because I love what this studio is trying to do. Crowd sourcing product development feedback? That is so freaking awesome to see. Even if I never play this game, supporting that idea is worth my investment.

I love Linux for a lot of the same reasons I invested in this game. Because it's BY the people and FOR the people.

I'll use Windows if I have to, but I won't be happy about it. I will still play. But my heart will be forever saddened. And a piece of my soul will die every time I have to wait 15 seconds on boot for Cortana to load so I can open the start menu.

If Intrepid does end up making this game in a way that is compatible with Linux, I will be a huge promoter (I should say 'even bigger promotor'). And I will be shouting "Shut up and take my money!" from the rooftops.

P.S. I'd love to see a user poll on the number of players that would play on Linux. Maybe closer to launch or after launch, to get a more accurate player sample.

Noaani

perpleplex wrote: »

However, I do agree this isn't Intrepid's problem to solve.

This is - to me - the key point.

The discussion that could move Linux forward in regards to gaming isn't a discussion that the general public would be involved in. That discussion would be between Linux developers and game developers.

I'm all for them having that discussion, but again, it isnt something we will be a part of.

Vaesse

I am a Linux main who uses both my Linux PC and my Steam Deck for gaming and who loves playing MMOs (including playing ESO on my Steam Deck).

I'm also a crafter main in all my MMOs. I am very interested in everything I've heard about AOC (and have already joined a guild that supports my desired play style). I may or may not play on my Steam Deck but playing on the Deck means I die when I get attacked, that's par for the course for me in EVERY game I play with PVP, on Deck or not.

I have confidence that if AOC is not restricted from running on Linux the Linux community will be thrilled to make it work and I'll be thrilled to play it. If I have to boot onto my Windows drive (which I haven't done in over a year) to play AOC, I may do that, but I'm not happy with the idea at all. Just to offer another individual point of view.

IustinusShiva

Thread still going? First time weighing in.
With the ending of support for windows 10 looming and the aversion to windows 11 looming I'm desiring switching to Linux. Ashes being the main reason I'll still want windows currently.

I understand why Intrepid doesn't 'officially' want to support Linux.

I only ask that they enable Easy Anti Cheat Linux support. It's two check boxes.

Beyond that they can leave it up to the community to figure out how to make it work, and no dev time needs to be allocated to it. Proton and Wine will handle most of the legwork as long as EAC isn't saying 'No'.

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