I think that going a little deeper into this topic not only applies to the development of old vs modern MMORPGS but nowadays it applies to many different genres.
The point is that with the "modernity" is gradually losing that sense of detail to do things well, because unlike before there are many tools that facilitate the work therefore there is the possibility of losing many perspectives for the ease of it.
As I said before, modernity and the facilities that exist now are only tools to enhance the work, the real key to success is in the worker, the company and the team, if they want to do things well they will do it even if they have a lot or little technology, the one who seeks to do things well will do it.
I feel like this perspective is valid but slightly backwards.
Tools allow people with less focus or skill to do the same things. They allow 'suits' who know what the tools can THEORETICALLY do, to plan things around 'having slightly above average workers' to do the work.
This isn't an old thing either, in gaming, we just don't remember the GIANT PILES of garbage games that were released by companies that figured out how to just copy what an innovator did, but those have been around since the Nintendo Entertainment System.
Low quality happens more easily now because those who can only produce lower quality don't have a reason to GIVE UP.
Back in 2014, I watched some people play Classic EQ for the first time.
When I first played EQ, I thought the graphics were amazing - cutting edge.
Form a 2014 perspective, it pretty much looked like DOOM. Ha, not much better than MineCraft.
We put up with a lot of crap just because it was so cool to be able to play an RPG with a bunch of other people 24/7 whenever we wanted.
But, devs can't keep up with the speed with which we play through the content.
I've been feeling that about some older games, i know when i jumped on rift for a bit i was wondering to myself if things there always this open and just feeling old or not good by todays standards.
Just as we consume content faster we expect better and more interesting looking places more than double pressure on developers to deliver. With cost increases I guess its not surprising they are trying to over milk players for money now adays. Rather then content they spend more time on creating the look of the world on a smaller scale.
I remember everquest feeling massive and WoW as well compared to most mmorpgs now adays. Even rift honestly felt giant, that was prob the last one for me. With EQ it was great you could go across the ocean, glad AoC is bringing that feeling back for me since i didn't really play AA.
As Ragnarok player i can say everyone hated the lag during the siege time
The castles had no hard limit to how many players can enter at the same time.
This lead to sometimes half the server entering 1 castle to bash it.
The Griend was also extremly boring, if done alone.
Most of the time i was talking in teamspeak while grinding.
6 hours later i got my level up without realizing how much time i spend.
So it was more socializing while grinding then grinding while socializing.
As for things old games did different.
Risk and rewards.
The owner of a castle could invest ingame currency into their castle 2 times a day.
It started out cheap but turned very expensive.
This could be done for a total of 100 times.
For every 2 points you got 1 treasure chest daily.
But if another guild took your castle during siege times you lost 10 points and then another 5 each time it changes ownership afterwards.
So Risk a lot of money for the potential reward of powerful crafting materials.
IF you died you could loose days of grinding at higher levels in expirience.
So Risk high exp areas that can kill you faster for higher exp gain or go somewhere more safe but get less exp / Hour.
Unique Classes and balance
There was no 1 vs 1 balance.
In stat if you took every single class in the game and put them in 1 guild and they fought against another guild who did the same, then it was balanced.
There were classes that had 0 ability to level on their own.
They had no ability to attack or defend but where invaluable as support during pvp.
Some classes completely dominated 1 VS1 while others completely dominated Mass combat.
I thought Ragnarok 2 would be everything Ragnarok 1 was but with better graphic.
In stat it was bitter disappointment.
EDIT:
Ragnarok also had powerfull unique gear called Godlike or Boss enchants.
The same crafting materials that one could get out of the castle at a 0.00001% or from Bosses also at 0.0001%
Could be turned into God like / Boss gear
A belt that adds +40 Strengh while the best normal alternative adds 4 strength.
Boots that have a constant speed buff.
Armor that made you 90% resistant to normal damage.
The list goes on.
Most guilds never had one.
The really strong guilds had maybe 1 - 3 and you knew who had them.
So when guy named X comes in you knew he had 2 god like gear and a boss gear and would do everything to focus him down.
Coordination could kill even the most over geared player.
Ashes is already going in the right direction with many things.
Death earns exp dept.
Death means you loose part of your inventory.
Balance is set around a group of 8.
Flying mounts as Unique set for the top guilds and the best majors.
I just hope they dont chicken out to "please the masses" as all the other failed MMOs did.
That’s why it takes six people (all doing different jobs) to kill most anything.
You never, ever, ever change jobs. If you want to, you probably need to die.
You can be the best in the world at your job.
But so can everyone else.
And you will all do it exactly the same way.
Intelligent beings who have civilizations and languages of their own are generally evil and should be slain.
Many, if not all, wild creatures are highly aggressive and will attack on sight.
Evil is not redeemable; good is not a choice. Your morals are innate.
Killing is the only real way to gain people’s admiration.
Well, you can make stuff too, but you won’t earn the same kind of admiration.
In fact, there are only two kinds of admiration in the world, and they can be quantified.
Having a hobby will probably reduce your admiration.
All that hoorah about endangered species is like, a total exaggeration. There’s plenty of everything.
You not only can’t go home again, you probably don’t have one.
If you do, it’s mostly to store stuff, not to live in.
You never have people over.
Telepathy is normal.
Staring at someone who is talking the politest thing you can do. Because the only other option is to not look at them at all.
Running past or away from people while you are talking to them is also polite.
If you don’t keep up with the Joneses, you will never see them again. In fact, if you don’t keep up with your friends, you will never see them again either.
There are no children.
Death doesn’t really sting. Nerf, however, is incredibly painful.
There is always a demand for couriers and assassins.
Moving frequently is normal, and never going back to your old stomping grounds again is the way of things.
There are no such things as social progress or technological advancement.
In fact, evil will always be lurking at the edge of the village.
On the other hand, it will never invade.
There are no governments. Thus there are no laws. Instead, there are laws of physics.
There are gods, and they are capricious, and have way way more than ten commandments. Nobody knows how many because everyone clicked past them.
Sports are stupid, because everyone’s body is the same.
Charity is not a virtue; in fact, it’s frequently physically impossible.
You should not associate with those of lower social standing than yourself.
You can’t be in two places at once. But places can be in two places at once.
Parallel universes are obvious.
Walking is stupid.
Actually, in general, taking your time is counterproductive.
The most important thing in the world is slaying something that will be back the next day… before anyone else gets to slay it.
You should probably have entrance and résumé requirements to join your circle of friends.
Hunting is the noblest profession.
I take that back; hunting is only noble until you’re good enough to switch to murder.
Robbing the dead of indigenous cultures is how you make money.
There is no such thing as obesity.
All women are beautiful and all men are either handsome or darkly mysterious.
Somehow, this means that nobody is beautiful and there is no mystery.
There is no need for bras.
People have sex a lot.
People never touch.
Nobody reads.
They’ve never heard a brand new song.
In fact, inventing is either forbidden or impossible. Sometimes both.
Most people don’t have families.
If they do, they probably don’t have mothers and fathers, only brothers and sisters.
Nobody’s really from here, they just live here.
The tide never washes in and out.
The birds never migrate.
Strawberries are never in season.
Night’s really short.
Nothing sleeps.
Nothing dreams.
There is art and beauty in the world, but you can’t be responsible for any of it.
There is no death; there is simply a failure to show up.
Because of this, there is also rarely any mourning.
* * *
I realize this list may seem like a cutesy joke. But it isn’t. Go back, and re-read it. It’s actually a lament.
Back then, MMORPG genre was a niche.
It became, mainly with WoW but also GW (and then other) a "popular genre"
At this point, the economic profit of those game became a real focus, everyone wanted a part of the cake, salivating at wow numbers But also how abusable would it be with cash shops
How to get lot of people ? MMORPG genre has a flaw : high time consuming, for various reasons.
WoW Showed it could be casualised, but the more casualised the MMORPG is the more solo the games feels...
FFXIV, WoW, GW2, LA, and others, they all became solo-MMORPG.
What shared Strevi, just over my post,get some points that was in fact important thing for the feeling we had.
Sure the "no kids" is not one of those important facts (wow have kids, and they even do strange ritual in goldshire) But for example : you are one amongst many, with a specific role that have to group with other to manage to do great things (the first points)... I point this "grouping" part, the "one amongst other" because... it is also a base for RPG... you do pen and paper RPG not one to one, a DM a player, not ...3 to 6 players. The world get NPC that are veteran, stronger that players but are also what the characters of the players could dream to become (such as a newcomer dreaming to reach summit on the game and be part of those guild that are known by anyone).
Current MMORPG gives a fast easy pleasure "oh yes you are THE hero" ... FFXIV ? you finish the quest line of the region you spawn... being already the reknown hero, that is the center of the attention, and oh, all discover you have echo, a rare special power ! WoW ? at first we were nothing and had to prove ourselves, reaching 60/70 our character was clearly "over average" but with many like him, the elite of horde/alliance... and this began to change during LK... you character is the one chose for security and observation at the gate... then later, there is the tournament to chose "the best of the best" to defy the icecrown citadel and the lich king.
Then, in cataclysm, i don't know the english word used but in french, we become "the Herald of [horde/alliance].
And this comes with all those duty finder that makes people juste "not so bad AI NPC", our character is alone with on the summit of the story, we are playing a solo game.
Old MMORPG we were one over average amongst lot over average. And forced to socialised, speak, and be kind to the other people of this "amongst lot"...
Nostalgy is also another part, but i really think that a MMORPG that can return to explain players that he is not so special, and to the player that yes, to have real progress he will need to spent huge amount of time... would allow to find back those old feelings.
Why are old MMOs more loved and remembered than modern MMOs?
Because player quality was better back then. It was before the time of meme lords and toxic trolling.
.
LOL WUT
I grew up with the merging of the Internet. Ultima Online was intensely toxic AF and the ganking, griefing, zerging was intense. Racism in chat was abudant. Naming character with racists names or terminolgy was a thing.
I remember seeing in UO, 1 corpse, a black corpse, spammed everywhere around the main town.. his name begins with an N. This shit happened in EQ too before they quickly implemented name bans.
While voice chat wasn't a thing yet, IRC chat and in-game chat was toxic. Halo and Unreal Tournament was FAR WORSE than any Call of Duty 9yr old.
Shit was wild. The internet in 95-99 was the wild wild west... steakandcheese.com, meatspin.com, 2girls1cup, like holy fuck... the rules of the internet was then created, snuff, pedo shit and virus was all over the place... Kazaa - gaurenteed you either got a virus or child porn or both and not that metallica song you wanted cause Napster dead.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
lol well when you put it that way. I mean you're not wrong. A lot of that stuff you listed out is still here though.
Most of it was not really what I was talking about. I was talking about player maturity/behavior back then compared to now, which I think has not only gotten worse, but a hell of a lot worse. Probably just a generational thing. Or a difference in the lived experience.
lol well when you put it that way. I mean you're not wrong. A lot of that stuff you listed out is still here though.
Most of it was not really what I was talking about. I was talking about player maturity/behavior back then compared to now, which I think has not only gotten worse, but a hell of a lot worse. Probably just a generational thing. Or a difference in the lived experience.
Thinking back on my chat history from 2000's...
> "omg, r u srs?" "aight kewl, cya pplz tmr! ily!"
I think the younger gen are doing great without txt speech haha
Haha maouw. Back before typing lessons in school became mainstream, and cell phone text letters had to be manually entered by cycling through the num pad. Yeah everything looked like that. I bucked the trend, pretty much always typed my words out properly. Except UR in place of your/you're. Guilty of using that one for awhile.
Why are old MMOs more loved and remembered than modern MMOs?
Because player quality was better back then. It was before the time of meme lords and toxic trolling.
.
LOL WUT
I grew up with the merging of the Internet. Ultima Online was intensely toxic AF and the ganking, griefing, zerging was intense. Racism in chat was abudant. Naming character with racists names or terminolgy was a thing.
I remember seeing in UO, 1 corpse, a black corpse, spammed everywhere around the main town.. his name begins with an N. This shit happened in EQ too before they quickly implemented name bans.
While voice chat wasn't a thing yet, IRC chat and in-game chat was toxic. Halo and Unreal Tournament was FAR WORSE than any Call of Duty 9yr old.
Shit was wild. The internet in 95-99 was the wild wild west... steakandcheese.com, meatspin.com, 2girls1cup, like holy fuck... the rules of the internet was then created, snuff, pedo shit and virus was all over the place... Kazaa - gaurenteed you either got a virus or child porn or both and not that metallica song you wanted cause Napster dead.
The internet of 95-99 was a place for nerds. Nobody got hurt by namecalling.
Todays PC toxicity gets people to ruin other peoples lives over the most insignificant things.
Not to mention the suicides of young ppl over internet bullying, rising.
You think todays online environment has gotten better?
You think people are better protected and respected in 2022?
I see more division amongst normal people.
Racists around the world have not changed their behaviours just because the internet is becoming a so-called safe space. And as I said above, it's actually a worst place.
And what's weird is that people choose to live online more so than ever.
The levels of social frustration has never been higher, on and off the internet.
People havent become more tolerant. They have become more controlled. It's an illusion and one day it will burst.
Education is the true way for a better society. Not virtue signalling.
Economical development for third world countries is the way to true tolerance and respect between peoples.
Not wasteful spending on social media, space tourism, politically correct entertainment productions and new iphones, half of which are enslavement measures and the other half vanity goals.
Will you contribute for a better tomorrow, or will you get confused and offended?
(Rhetorical question, not directed to anyone)
Holy shit George, yesterday I was going to type out most of what you just wrote. Because the guy listed off a bunch of stuff I didn't say nor was talking about, then tried to use it as an argument to counter what I said.
I was going to. But decided not to. A near daily occurrence for me on this forum, to see a post I could just rip to shreds, but choose not to. Anyway.
Yes that's what I was referring to. The rise in cyberbullying, swatting, gamerbro culture, mic rage culture, streamer culture (plus wanna be streamer), professional gamer culture (plus wannabe professional), and yes going further, the degradation of education and morals, and the extreme mental health crisis. And more. Much more. But I'll just leave it at that.
It's not ALL bad in every way. But if you can't see the difference between now and then, having lived both, you're either blind or biased.
The internet of 95-99 was a place for nerds. Nobody got hurt by namecalling.
Todays PC toxicity gets people to ruin other peoples lives over the most insignificant things.
Not to mention the suicides of young ppl over internet bullying, rising.
You think todays online environment has gotten better?
You think people are better protected and respected in 2022?
I see more division amongst normal people.
Racists around the world have not changed their behaviours just because the internet is becoming a so-called safe space. And as I said above, it's actually a worst place.
And what's weird is that people choose to live online more so than ever.
The levels of social frustration has never been higher, on and off the internet.
People havent become more tolerant. They have become more controlled. It's an illusion and one day it will burst.
Education is the true way for a better society. Not virtue signalling.
Economical development for third world countries is the way to true tolerance and respect between peoples.
Not wasteful spending on social media, space tourism, politically correct entertainment productions and new iphones, half of which are enslavement measures and the other half vanity goals.
Will you contribute for a better tomorrow, or will you get confused and offended?
(Rhetorical question, not directed to anyone)
Dramatic. You have a funny way of assuming people weren't racist or 'phobic' back then.
But like you say, it was a place for nerds and being an 'enemy' to others is not a nerd thing to do, is it? Putting a target on your back for certain people to aim at will never be something 'nerds' do lol. No matter what. 99.999% of the time. And everyone is basically a nerd.
Internet is a social platform for most now. You think any 'nerd' or kid growing up or whomever wants to make a bunch of enemies?
You might as well get mad that people are less isolated and Exposed to more kinds of people. Lot of people that like to troll, harrass, whatever;
but in real life you get that sort of thing but with the additional threat of violence and people that like to do things "off the record" lmao. High stakes.
Just get mad that people exist. Get mad that everyone's life is examined. lol.
Same people new situation.
@Okeydoke
Don't nerdrage on us bro.
The way people argue is improper in its way and your rage would destroy our aweful technique; nevermind the content.
Also rounded back deadlifts are good for you
You touched on great points @Okeydoke about how todays internet causes harm to children by promoting the youtuber streamer crap.
Before all that, people that aspired to be famous would actually get imvolved with the arts or sports. They would realise their potential and the vast majority would return to a balanced life of productiveness and happiness. The chances we astronomical as they are today with online fame.
Now kids and young people dream of "creating content" and the vast majority of them, having failed, populate chat channels (in which the text rolls at the speed of light with incoherent single word sentences of pure spam, which gives a false sense of belonging), and continue to consume "content" instead of moving on to live real lives.
Haha maouw. Back before typing lessons in school became mainstream, and cell phone text letters had to be manually entered by cycling through the num pad. Yeah everything looked like that. I bucked the trend, pretty much always typed my words out properly. Except UR in place of your/you're. Guilty of using that one for awhile.
DoNt FoRgEt ThIs ErA
0r 1f ur l33t n c00l
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
Before all that, people that aspired to be famous would actually get imvolved with the arts or sports.
Nothing wrong with people following their dreams in the ways they choose, exploring their talents. If you don't jump, you'll never know if you would have made it to the other side. Good parents will see to it that their child has backup options though when that less than 1% chance of succeeding dream, fails. Have to have good parents though, which is increasingly not the case for some.
But yeah George there are many pitfalls for today's youth in the internet/gaming/content creation realm. Cool to see that someone else "gets it" and understands the differences between now and then, without me having to type it all out haha.
All of that said, I love video games, the internet, and I watch streamers and youtube videos on a near daily basis. I don't think it's all inherently bad. Pros and cons. Everything has pros and cons. And moderation is key, especially for youth. Alright enough grandpa talk.
Really don't wanna overanalyze this topic much further lol, you just spelled out my thoughts almost exactly George, wasn't expecting it.
Parents? Dreams? I don't see the point in characterizing extreme risk taking as normal.
If you're good at something you're good at something. If you're betting on getting lucky and people 'carrying you' to the top or simply cooperating for your success just 'cause; then it's just delusion.
If anything you've made it clear that the modern era is a time of DISILLUSIONMENT lol
lol Sapi I dunno man. My original comments in this thread were from a year ago, I was just keeping it simple at the time. Simple thoughts. I didn't intend to go as deep as George but I agree with a lot of what he said.
I don't even know what to say to you hahah. I was looking at the dps meter thread a minute ago and that was cracking me up. Yes there may be some DISILLUSIONMENT going on in the modern era. heh. There's always some disillusionment, but maybe it's
Well I might agree with George about people moving on less.
Then again I don't think people were getting very far from their Grocer job 20 - 50 years ago either.
If people were subsisting on their own such as with an eighth acre farm, some indoor foodshrooms, and some power generation then there'd probably be even more people online lol
Though they'd probably be more grounded and everyone would be better off overall.
I mean the videos don't lie. I can't argue with this. These are sustainable DISILLUSIONMENT reducers for the modern era. The benefits far outweigh any costs.
When there is so much passion well managed and developed you will attract everyone's attention.
There will be people who will love you and there will be many people who will envy you or will not understand because they are not able to understand that passion.
Why are there big developers or large multi-billion dollar companies who do not want BG3 to be seen as the new RPG standard?
For the same reason that there are companies that prefer not to do things right and limit themselves to doing the minimum, (even if they are multi-million dollar companies that could if they wanted to), because they consider their consumers to be "idiots who will buy anything".
(cof cof cof modern MMORPGS)
The spirit of the old school is being reborn, not because they want to do things old school but because there are more and more development studios that want to do a really good job, passionate, artistic, that really respects their audience and gives them a quality product.
A project that is more technological than passionate is simply an empty can.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2023
I don't understand why anyone would be expecting Baldur's Gate 3 to be the new "standard" for RPGs.
I'm not expecting Stephen King to be "standard" for Horror novels.
I'm not expecting Star Wars to be "standard" for sci-fi movies.
I expect Baldur's Gate 3 to be the pinnacle of single-player CRPGs because the IP is D&D - which is the pinnacle of TT RPGs.
I might expect it to be the new standard if they were able to, I dunno, share a D20-esque game engine, similar to what Unreal Engine does.
What makes BG3 "old school"???
Why are old MMOs more loved and remembered than modern MMOs?
Why have the new generations of MMO players dwindled so much?
Why doesn't it feel like you're playing an MMO anymore but a fast food MMO?
I don't know if old mmo's are more loved that modern one and I don't want to speak for others.
But personnally I muched prefered old MMO for many reasons :
- Item scarcity was much better controlled There were far fewer trash items and rare items had real value on the market.
- There was no environment that evolved according to the character's level. Personally, I hate the level of monsters and items that correspond to a character's level. I preferred the days when items could be equipped according to stats/class rather than level.
- I hate that new MMOs try to artificially increase the game's lifespan with cooldowns everywhere.
- I hate the fact that new MMOs are trying to artificially increase the game's lifespan with an increasingly random variables that makes harder and harder to target farm an items. I miss the time when you could visit a database and knew that these 5 mobs, on this specific area could loot the item you are looking for at a drop rate of 0.001% and spend days and night killing them.
- I hate the illusion of variety in new MMOs, where characters are free to be anyone and do anything. When, in fact, only a few possibilities are offered, and everyone has the same character.
- To add to the previous point, I hate the fact that in the new MMOs, nobody has a unique character anymore, and it's become too easy to change your character's stats. In my opinion, it would be better to create another character. I liked the fact that in some older MMOs, your choice of stats distribution was definitive or could only be changed once every 6 or 3 months.
- I liked the fact that the old MMOs (perhaps lacking beautiful graphics), took much more care with their scenario, story, religions, quests and Role Play (etc.).
- I liked the fact that in the old MMOs, your character's appearance was defined by the items you wore, not by the cosmetics pack you bought in a shop. Im not talking about the commercial aspect here (I dont care about that). I find it strategic, especially in PvP, to adapt your playing style to the enemy, knowing what he's wearing. Now, a player is wearing heavy armor but has bought light armor cosmetics. WTF is that?
This also has an influence on his character. Before, you felt respected because everyone could see you were carrying a super-rare sword. Now you can wear a rusty sword and buy the super-rare sword cosmetics. So cosmetics lose all their meaning...
- I hate the fact that the more new MMOs take place in gigantic open worlds, the more the feeling of being able to get lost diminishes. This is partly due to the fact that new players want teleportation points every 3 meters and mounts that move at 200 km/h. So, what's the point of having a big open world?
To finish with AOC, because it's still the game's forum. Even if AOC has certain mechanics that I don't like, I have the impression that AOC is the new MMO that's going to reawaken the passions that old gamers had when playing the MMOs of the late 1990s and early 2000s. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it won't be a mirage.
That is the point , it is not but it represents something that the old school did and that in modernity has been forgotten , either by ambition , lack of vision , desire for exaggerated profits ( P2W , loot boxes , exploitation of micro / macro transactions ) , minimum standards or even fear of failure ( lack of daring ) , what it represents is simply and simply give value and respect to the consumer trying to give a really quality product or even a product that exceeds expectations.
What do modern MMORPGS have in common with blockbuster movies?
They are guaranteed sales even if nobody cares if the movie or the modern MMORPG is well made, they are just going to sell.
WOW shadowlands broke records in its first week , New World reached 1 .3 M users in its first day , copies of WOW did that because they knew it was assured sales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybFIp1bSz-8&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIJtupefaTE
What does Elden Ring , BG3 and others have in common with Christopher Nolan's latest movie "Oppenheimer".
They are products that have been meticulously crafted to ensure that the consumer has a quality product that is why these products have been acclaimed and requested by the public, not because they are guaranteed sales products like Blockbusters or modern MMORPGS but because Elden Ring, BDG3 and "Oppenheimer" attract the attention of the public for their quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuRu8T41u9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Udsa10P1mE
, consumers are becoming more and more aware of when something is really worthwhile and who to follow or when someone or some development studio is trying to do the right things.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
WOW shadowlands broke records in its first week , New World reached 1 .3 M users in its first day , copies of WOW did that because they knew it was assured sales.
WoW is among the pinnacle of MMORPGs. Why would we be surprised that Shadowlands broke records its first week? I played some of Shadowlands Beta, so I knew it would finally have some updates that I had been waiting for since 2014 - like the ability to make a character who looks very similar to my real world appearance. Landmark was the first game to allow me to do that. I do now have that as a standard.
And one of the things I loved best about BG3 when I played early access is that I was able to make a Dwarf who looked similar to my real world appearance. Something 3E D&D finally got right back in 2000, but took MMORPGs almost 20 years to accomplish.
After WoW Cataclysm, I thought I was done with WoW until they made some form of WoW 2.0.
Shadowlands made some considerable strides in the right direction. And I love playing Dragonflight.
What does New World reaching 1.3M users its first day have to do with "old school" or a "new standard"??
What does Elden Ring , BG3 and others have in common with Christopher Nolan's latest movie "Oppenheimer".
They are products that have been meticulously crafted to ensure that the consumer has a quality product that is why these products have been acclaimed and requested by the public, not because they are guaranteed sales products like Blockbusters or modern MMORPGS but because Elden Ring, BDG3 and "Oppenheimer" attract the attention of the public for their quality.
Um. I would not be expecting a Christopher Nolan film to be "standard" for movies.
I would be expecting a Christopher Nolan film to be a pinnacle that most movies cannot match.
Times change, consumers are becoming more and more aware of when something is really worthwhile and who to follow or when someone or some development studio is trying to do the right things.
I don't understand why times changing is supposed to be relevant.
People tend to recognize greatness when they experience it. I don't think they then expect that greatness to be the baseline for everything else in the same category.
Comments
I feel like this perspective is valid but slightly backwards.
Tools allow people with less focus or skill to do the same things. They allow 'suits' who know what the tools can THEORETICALLY do, to plan things around 'having slightly above average workers' to do the work.
This isn't an old thing either, in gaming, we just don't remember the GIANT PILES of garbage games that were released by companies that figured out how to just copy what an innovator did, but those have been around since the Nintendo Entertainment System.
Low quality happens more easily now because those who can only produce lower quality don't have a reason to GIVE UP.
I've been feeling that about some older games, i know when i jumped on rift for a bit i was wondering to myself if things there always this open and just feeling old or not good by todays standards.
Just as we consume content faster we expect better and more interesting looking places more than double pressure on developers to deliver. With cost increases I guess its not surprising they are trying to over milk players for money now adays. Rather then content they spend more time on creating the look of the world on a smaller scale.
I remember everquest feeling massive and WoW as well compared to most mmorpgs now adays. Even rift honestly felt giant, that was prob the last one for me. With EQ it was great you could go across the ocean, glad AoC is bringing that feeling back for me since i didn't really play AA.
The castles had no hard limit to how many players can enter at the same time.
This lead to sometimes half the server entering 1 castle to bash it.
The Griend was also extremly boring, if done alone.
Most of the time i was talking in teamspeak while grinding.
6 hours later i got my level up without realizing how much time i spend.
So it was more socializing while grinding then grinding while socializing.
As for things old games did different.
Risk and rewards.
The owner of a castle could invest ingame currency into their castle 2 times a day.
It started out cheap but turned very expensive.
This could be done for a total of 100 times.
For every 2 points you got 1 treasure chest daily.
But if another guild took your castle during siege times you lost 10 points and then another 5 each time it changes ownership afterwards.
So Risk a lot of money for the potential reward of powerful crafting materials.
IF you died you could loose days of grinding at higher levels in expirience.
So Risk high exp areas that can kill you faster for higher exp gain or go somewhere more safe but get less exp / Hour.
Unique Classes and balance
There was no 1 vs 1 balance.
In stat if you took every single class in the game and put them in 1 guild and they fought against another guild who did the same, then it was balanced.
There were classes that had 0 ability to level on their own.
They had no ability to attack or defend but where invaluable as support during pvp.
Some classes completely dominated 1 VS1 while others completely dominated Mass combat.
I thought Ragnarok 2 would be everything Ragnarok 1 was but with better graphic.
In stat it was bitter disappointment.
EDIT:
Ragnarok also had powerfull unique gear called Godlike or Boss enchants.
The same crafting materials that one could get out of the castle at a 0.00001% or from Bosses also at 0.0001%
Could be turned into God like / Boss gear
A belt that adds +40 Strengh while the best normal alternative adds 4 strength.
Boots that have a constant speed buff.
Armor that made you 90% resistant to normal damage.
The list goes on.
Most guilds never had one.
The really strong guilds had maybe 1 - 3 and you knew who had them.
So when guy named X comes in you knew he had 2 god like gear and a boss gear and would do everything to focus him down.
Coordination could kill even the most over geared player.
Ashes is already going in the right direction with many things.
Death earns exp dept.
Death means you loose part of your inventory.
Balance is set around a group of 8.
Flying mounts as Unique set for the top guilds and the best majors.
I just hope they dont chicken out to "please the masses" as all the other failed MMOs did.
https://www.raphkoster.com/2006/02/24/what-are-the-lessons-of-mmorpgs-today/
It became, mainly with WoW but also GW (and then other) a "popular genre"
At this point, the economic profit of those game became a real focus, everyone wanted a part of the cake, salivating at wow numbers But also how abusable would it be with cash shops
How to get lot of people ? MMORPG genre has a flaw : high time consuming, for various reasons.
WoW Showed it could be casualised, but the more casualised the MMORPG is the more solo the games feels...
FFXIV, WoW, GW2, LA, and others, they all became solo-MMORPG.
What shared Strevi, just over my post,get some points that was in fact important thing for the feeling we had.
Sure the "no kids" is not one of those important facts (wow have kids, and they even do strange ritual in goldshire) But for example : you are one amongst many, with a specific role that have to group with other to manage to do great things (the first points)... I point this "grouping" part, the "one amongst other" because... it is also a base for RPG... you do pen and paper RPG not one to one, a DM a player, not ...3 to 6 players. The world get NPC that are veteran, stronger that players but are also what the characters of the players could dream to become (such as a newcomer dreaming to reach summit on the game and be part of those guild that are known by anyone).
Current MMORPG gives a fast easy pleasure "oh yes you are THE hero" ... FFXIV ? you finish the quest line of the region you spawn... being already the reknown hero, that is the center of the attention, and oh, all discover you have echo, a rare special power ! WoW ? at first we were nothing and had to prove ourselves, reaching 60/70 our character was clearly "over average" but with many like him, the elite of horde/alliance... and this began to change during LK... you character is the one chose for security and observation at the gate... then later, there is the tournament to chose "the best of the best" to defy the icecrown citadel and the lich king.
Then, in cataclysm, i don't know the english word used but in french, we become "the Herald of [horde/alliance].
And this comes with all those duty finder that makes people juste "not so bad AI NPC", our character is alone with on the summit of the story, we are playing a solo game.
Old MMORPG we were one over average amongst lot over average. And forced to socialised, speak, and be kind to the other people of this "amongst lot"...
Nostalgy is also another part, but i really think that a MMORPG that can return to explain players that he is not so special, and to the player that yes, to have real progress he will need to spent huge amount of time... would allow to find back those old feelings.
This is, sure, just my opinion and my 2 cent...
LOL WUT
I grew up with the merging of the Internet. Ultima Online was intensely toxic AF and the ganking, griefing, zerging was intense. Racism in chat was abudant. Naming character with racists names or terminolgy was a thing.
I remember seeing in UO, 1 corpse, a black corpse, spammed everywhere around the main town.. his name begins with an N. This shit happened in EQ too before they quickly implemented name bans.
While voice chat wasn't a thing yet, IRC chat and in-game chat was toxic. Halo and Unreal Tournament was FAR WORSE than any Call of Duty 9yr old.
Shit was wild. The internet in 95-99 was the wild wild west... steakandcheese.com, meatspin.com, 2girls1cup, like holy fuck... the rules of the internet was then created, snuff, pedo shit and virus was all over the place... Kazaa - gaurenteed you either got a virus or child porn or both and not that metallica song you wanted cause Napster dead.
Most of it was not really what I was talking about. I was talking about player maturity/behavior back then compared to now, which I think has not only gotten worse, but a hell of a lot worse. Probably just a generational thing. Or a difference in the lived experience.
Thinking back on my chat history from 2000's...
> "omg, r u srs?" "aight kewl, cya pplz tmr! ily!"
I think the younger gen are doing great without txt speech haha
The internet of 95-99 was a place for nerds. Nobody got hurt by namecalling.
Todays PC toxicity gets people to ruin other peoples lives over the most insignificant things.
Not to mention the suicides of young ppl over internet bullying, rising.
You think todays online environment has gotten better?
You think people are better protected and respected in 2022?
I see more division amongst normal people.
Racists around the world have not changed their behaviours just because the internet is becoming a so-called safe space. And as I said above, it's actually a worst place.
And what's weird is that people choose to live online more so than ever.
The levels of social frustration has never been higher, on and off the internet.
People havent become more tolerant. They have become more controlled. It's an illusion and one day it will burst.
Education is the true way for a better society. Not virtue signalling.
Economical development for third world countries is the way to true tolerance and respect between peoples.
Not wasteful spending on social media, space tourism, politically correct entertainment productions and new iphones, half of which are enslavement measures and the other half vanity goals.
Will you contribute for a better tomorrow, or will you get confused and offended?
(Rhetorical question, not directed to anyone)
I was going to. But decided not to. A near daily occurrence for me on this forum, to see a post I could just rip to shreds, but choose not to. Anyway.
Yes that's what I was referring to. The rise in cyberbullying, swatting, gamerbro culture, mic rage culture, streamer culture (plus wanna be streamer), professional gamer culture (plus wannabe professional), and yes going further, the degradation of education and morals, and the extreme mental health crisis. And more. Much more. But I'll just leave it at that.
It's not ALL bad in every way. But if you can't see the difference between now and then, having lived both, you're either blind or biased.
Dramatic. You have a funny way of assuming people weren't racist or 'phobic' back then.
But like you say, it was a place for nerds and being an 'enemy' to others is not a nerd thing to do, is it? Putting a target on your back for certain people to aim at will never be something 'nerds' do lol. No matter what. 99.999% of the time. And everyone is basically a nerd.
Internet is a social platform for most now. You think any 'nerd' or kid growing up or whomever wants to make a bunch of enemies?
You might as well get mad that people are less isolated and Exposed to more kinds of people. Lot of people that like to troll, harrass, whatever;
but in real life you get that sort of thing but with the additional threat of violence and people that like to do things "off the record" lmao. High stakes.
Just get mad that people exist. Get mad that everyone's life is examined. lol.
Same people new situation.
@Okeydoke
Don't nerdrage on us bro.
The way people argue is improper in its way and your rage would destroy our aweful technique; nevermind the content.
Also rounded back deadlifts are good for you
Before all that, people that aspired to be famous would actually get imvolved with the arts or sports. They would realise their potential and the vast majority would return to a balanced life of productiveness and happiness. The chances we astronomical as they are today with online fame.
Now kids and young people dream of "creating content" and the vast majority of them, having failed, populate chat channels (in which the text rolls at the speed of light with incoherent single word sentences of pure spam, which gives a false sense of belonging), and continue to consume "content" instead of moving on to live real lives.
Yeah.. great wins against toxicity.
DoNt FoRgEt ThIs ErA
0r 1f ur l33t n c00l
I'd never.
Nothing wrong with people following their dreams in the ways they choose, exploring their talents. If you don't jump, you'll never know if you would have made it to the other side. Good parents will see to it that their child has backup options though when that less than 1% chance of succeeding dream, fails. Have to have good parents though, which is increasingly not the case for some.
But yeah George there are many pitfalls for today's youth in the internet/gaming/content creation realm. Cool to see that someone else "gets it" and understands the differences between now and then, without me having to type it all out haha.
All of that said, I love video games, the internet, and I watch streamers and youtube videos on a near daily basis. I don't think it's all inherently bad. Pros and cons. Everything has pros and cons. And moderation is key, especially for youth. Alright enough grandpa talk.
Really don't wanna overanalyze this topic much further lol, you just spelled out my thoughts almost exactly George, wasn't expecting it.
If you're good at something you're good at something. If you're betting on getting lucky and people 'carrying you' to the top or simply cooperating for your success just 'cause; then it's just delusion.
If anything you've made it clear that the modern era is a time of DISILLUSIONMENT lol
I don't even know what to say to you hahah. I was looking at the dps meter thread a minute ago and that was cracking me up. Yes there may be some DISILLUSIONMENT going on in the modern era. heh. There's always some disillusionment, but maybe it's
Then again I don't think people were getting very far from their Grocer job 20 - 50 years ago either.
If people were subsisting on their own such as with an eighth acre farm, some indoor foodshrooms, and some power generation then there'd probably be even more people online lol
Though they'd probably be more grounded and everyone would be better off overall.
FOODSHROOMS. They grow rapidly and cheaply from throwaway shit:
More than 1 lb per square foot with container potatoes:
When there is so much passion well managed and developed you will attract everyone's attention.
There will be people who will love you and there will be many people who will envy you or will not understand because they are not able to understand that passion.
Why are there big developers or large multi-billion dollar companies who do not want BG3 to be seen as the new RPG standard?
For the same reason that there are companies that prefer not to do things right and limit themselves to doing the minimum, (even if they are multi-million dollar companies that could if they wanted to), because they consider their consumers to be "idiots who will buy anything".
(cof cof cof modern MMORPGS)
The spirit of the old school is being reborn, not because they want to do things old school but because there are more and more development studios that want to do a really good job, passionate, artistic, that really respects their audience and gives them a quality product.
A project that is more technological than passionate is simply an empty can.
I'm not expecting Stephen King to be "standard" for Horror novels.
I'm not expecting Star Wars to be "standard" for sci-fi movies.
I expect Baldur's Gate 3 to be the pinnacle of single-player CRPGs because the IP is D&D - which is the pinnacle of TT RPGs.
I might expect it to be the new standard if they were able to, I dunno, share a D20-esque game engine, similar to what Unreal Engine does.
What makes BG3 "old school"???
I don't know if old mmo's are more loved that modern one and I don't want to speak for others.
But personnally I muched prefered old MMO for many reasons :
- Item scarcity was much better controlled There were far fewer trash items and rare items had real value on the market.
- There was no environment that evolved according to the character's level. Personally, I hate the level of monsters and items that correspond to a character's level. I preferred the days when items could be equipped according to stats/class rather than level.
- I hate that new MMOs try to artificially increase the game's lifespan with cooldowns everywhere.
- I hate the fact that new MMOs are trying to artificially increase the game's lifespan with an increasingly random variables that makes harder and harder to target farm an items. I miss the time when you could visit a database and knew that these 5 mobs, on this specific area could loot the item you are looking for at a drop rate of 0.001% and spend days and night killing them.
- I hate the illusion of variety in new MMOs, where characters are free to be anyone and do anything. When, in fact, only a few possibilities are offered, and everyone has the same character.
- To add to the previous point, I hate the fact that in the new MMOs, nobody has a unique character anymore, and it's become too easy to change your character's stats. In my opinion, it would be better to create another character. I liked the fact that in some older MMOs, your choice of stats distribution was definitive or could only be changed once every 6 or 3 months.
- I liked the fact that the old MMOs (perhaps lacking beautiful graphics), took much more care with their scenario, story, religions, quests and Role Play (etc.).
- I liked the fact that in the old MMOs, your character's appearance was defined by the items you wore, not by the cosmetics pack you bought in a shop. Im not talking about the commercial aspect here (I dont care about that). I find it strategic, especially in PvP, to adapt your playing style to the enemy, knowing what he's wearing. Now, a player is wearing heavy armor but has bought light armor cosmetics. WTF is that?
This also has an influence on his character. Before, you felt respected because everyone could see you were carrying a super-rare sword. Now you can wear a rusty sword and buy the super-rare sword cosmetics. So cosmetics lose all their meaning...
- I hate the fact that the more new MMOs take place in gigantic open worlds, the more the feeling of being able to get lost diminishes. This is partly due to the fact that new players want teleportation points every 3 meters and mounts that move at 200 km/h. So, what's the point of having a big open world?
To finish with AOC, because it's still the game's forum. Even if AOC has certain mechanics that I don't like, I have the impression that AOC is the new MMO that's going to reawaken the passions that old gamers had when playing the MMOs of the late 1990s and early 2000s. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it won't be a mirage.
Does not feel old school to me.
That is the point , it is not but it represents something that the old school did and that in modernity has been forgotten , either by ambition , lack of vision , desire for exaggerated profits ( P2W , loot boxes , exploitation of micro / macro transactions ) , minimum standards or even fear of failure ( lack of daring ) , what it represents is simply and simply give value and respect to the consumer trying to give a really quality product or even a product that exceeds expectations.
What do modern MMORPGS have in common with blockbuster movies?
They are guaranteed sales even if nobody cares if the movie or the modern MMORPG is well made, they are just going to sell.
WOW shadowlands broke records in its first week , New World reached 1 .3 M users in its first day , copies of WOW did that because they knew it was assured sales.
What does Elden Ring , BG3 and others have in common with Christopher Nolan's latest movie "Oppenheimer".
They are products that have been meticulously crafted to ensure that the consumer has a quality product that is why these products have been acclaimed and requested by the public, not because they are guaranteed sales products like Blockbusters or modern MMORPGS but because Elden Ring, BDG3 and "Oppenheimer" attract the attention of the public for their quality.
Times change
WoW is among the pinnacle of MMORPGs. Why would we be surprised that Shadowlands broke records its first week? I played some of Shadowlands Beta, so I knew it would finally have some updates that I had been waiting for since 2014 - like the ability to make a character who looks very similar to my real world appearance. Landmark was the first game to allow me to do that. I do now have that as a standard.
And one of the things I loved best about BG3 when I played early access is that I was able to make a Dwarf who looked similar to my real world appearance. Something 3E D&D finally got right back in 2000, but took MMORPGs almost 20 years to accomplish.
After WoW Cataclysm, I thought I was done with WoW until they made some form of WoW 2.0.
Shadowlands made some considerable strides in the right direction. And I love playing Dragonflight.
What does New World reaching 1.3M users its first day have to do with "old school" or a "new standard"??
Um. I would not be expecting a Christopher Nolan film to be "standard" for movies.
I would be expecting a Christopher Nolan film to be a pinnacle that most movies cannot match.
I don't understand why times changing is supposed to be relevant.
People tend to recognize greatness when they experience it. I don't think they then expect that greatness to be the baseline for everything else in the same category.
Can You Hear The Music ?
https://youtube.com/shorts/WZg03P1QCv8?feature=share