instanced dungeons

i like the fact that the dungeons in ashes of creation are open world, however i think they should have a cap of players that can enter each dungeon, a good example is anarchy online, they had a player cap of about 16-24 players per dungeon before a new ID was formed, or a new Layer

the problem with open world dungeons is, on paper it sounds fun, you can pvp for the chance of loot, etc etc, but in reality it will be chaos, with servers holding anywhere between 10-20,000 players at a given time people will just skip dungeons all together as competing against 500 other players for a chance of loot is just not worth it,

once the game matures and there becomes twink items dropping from certain bosses in certain dungeons this will be even worse, and i feel that a large part of the game will be just un obtainable by a vast majority of players,

i dont think dungeons instance locked like wow to a 5 man team is the way to go but maybe they should have a player cap, whats everyones thoughts

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

"we farm a spot or two and spend our entire primetime engaged in combat".

Do you realize how insanely boring that sounds to most people?

Farming a spot, or location, is the worst gameplay I've seen in any game genre, honestly.

I wouldn't want to put a time on what the respawn rate should be, it is determined by things like character movement speed, distance between bosses, number of encounters between bosses, etc. Boss respawn timers are one of those things that Intrepid can set up as levers to achieve a desired result.

To me, that desired result is players being mobile in criss-crossing dungeons so that they encounter other groups (and often the same group) frequently.

running from A to B is the worst gameplay I've ever seen (one of the biggest complaints about NW aka running simulator). I love staying in one spot farming mobs. at least I get to use my character. not everybody likes questing. lots of people like grinding mobs.

Dygz

Farming mobs sounds like some kind of a combat sim, rather than an RPG.
Doing stuff you like is not a grind.

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

The only reason I'd be looking at this is to get an idea of if Ashes is still just an MMO for Steven, or if he actually wants it to be a successful product. It's the most clear cut situation I can see where these two aspects are diametrically opposed.

This makes you sound dim witted. The arrogance of some of the forum members is staggering to me.

Caww

wide open access is best unless the system really can't handle the numbers

Chicago

Talents wrote: »

I was gonna actually make an argument but seeing as you got a detail about Ashes wrong almost as soon as you started talking about it (10-20,000 players at a given time) I won't bother. At least read the wiki before suggesting changes to the game.

this is actually accurate mate lol

Vaknar

Just in case anyone *does* want a refresher, here is what has been said regarding server population on the wiki

Vaknar

With that said, I'm curious @Chicago , what is your experience with open-world dungeons? My own is pretty somewhat, so it's always interesting hearing if others are similar to me in that sense, or if they have a lot of experience with open-world dungeons!

@Roshen and I talk about this often, as he has a lot of open-world dungeon/raid experience in MMORPGs!

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Open world dungeons imply that there'll be a party for each boss as soon as that boss respawns.

Only in a game with a low ratio of content to players.

The only way people will spend their time in game "running around" is if Intrepid don't put in base population - which would be a mistake.

What I will say is as someone that has played your ideal of dungeon (Archeage library), and the kind I am talking about (EQ2 PvP server), there is a reason I am excited about the prospect of one ideal, and consider the other to be the worst gameplay in have seen in any genre.

Your assumption on how it will be played is only true if the design is wrong.

Essentially, you are saying you want dungeons where players sit still and dare the same boring mobs over and over, with the only variation at all coming from potential PvP - but where everyone knows where your group is. It is the definition of boring, mundane predictable content.

I am talking about a dungeon where people are having to fight their way around, looking for boss mobs. Each of these bosses will fight differently already providing more variation. On top of that, while fighting your way between dungeons you are constantly happening upon cross roads, where groups could come at you from any number of directions making PvP also more variable.

That is how it worked in a game where the dungeons were just built for pure PvE rather than attempting to be backdrops for PvP. It was easily the best PvP group content I've ever played (some large scale PvP events beat it out, but aren't what dungeons are for).

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Farming mobs sounds like some kind of a combat sim, rather than an RPG.
Doing stuff you like is not a grind.

I like combat, and I want to roleplay as the savior of the continent, and for that reason, I like slaying mobs. how dare you tell me that's not roleplaying? I'm going to roleplay as the witcher and kill all those monsters and you cant tell me I'm not roleplaying. shame on you.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Open world dungeons imply that there'll be a party for each boss as soon as that boss respawns.

I am talking about a dungeon where people are having to fight their way around, looking for boss mobs. Each of these bosses will fight differently already providing more variation. On top of that, while fighting your way between dungeons you are constantly happening upon cross roads, where groups could come at you from any number of directions making PvP also more variable.

literally almost every dungeon in l2, and most (important) farming spots out in the open, unless you are in a really low pop server.

also, nothing wrong with staying in one spot and killing mobs inside a dungeon. you do that out in the open, the only difference is the change of scenery. unless you are willing to say that running around for several hours talking to npc's and maybe killing 5 mobs per hour is more fun. at this point, you aren't even playing your character anymore.

edit: happens a lot in ro as well, minus the pvp

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

The only way people will spend their time in game "running around" is if Intrepid don't put in base population - which would be a mistake.

By "base population" do you mean general mobs that I'm talking about? So you agree that there should be plain mobs in these locations as well?

I just want these mobs to not be useless to farm, so that weaker groups of people could grind them instead of trying to fight against well-coordinated groups that have precise respawn timers on all bosses in the surrounding area and can defend their farm in pvp (assumedly like your group).

Noaani wrote: »

Your assumption on how it will be played is only true if the design is wrong.

Essentially, you are saying you want dungeons where players sit still and dare the same boring mobs over and over, with the only variation at all coming from potential PvP - but where everyone knows where your group is. It is the definition of boring, mundane predictable content.

I wrote about this before, but I also want better pve content across the board. I suggested the room progress mechanic and you even said that EQ had a similar feature as well. And I'm sure that Intrepid could come up with an even better system.

Noaani wrote: »

I am talking about a dungeon where people are having to fight their way around, looking for boss mobs. Each of these bosses will fight differently already providing more variation. On top of that, while fighting your way between dungeons you are constantly happening upon cross roads, where groups could come at you from any number of directions making PvP also more variable.

Why would I (or any other group) fight people in-between farms? If we're just boss hunting then the most optimal course of action is to run around each and every room where a boss should spawn any minute (again, if they'll be respawning super fast or if there's a shitton of them throughout the server's primetime). And there'd be literally 0 point in wasting time on pvp, while running between rooms, because that pvp would simply hold us back from being the first ones to see a newly respawned boss.

The second best course of actions is to literally sit in an empty room and wait for the boss to respawn. Though this one only applies if bosses have a very short +-period on their respawns. So a group of people would just know the earliest timing on a boss and would just sit on their ass and defend their room from any other group that might enter it.

And that second course if pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting, except I want that group to fight mobs instead of sitting on their ass. And I want those mobs to also be super difficult and fun to fight. And I want those mobs to have the same drops as the boss in that room, just at way lower rates. And I want those mobs to collectively have the same mechanics as that boss, so that people could "train" for the boss fight beforehand.

I literally want the same thing as you, but with even more good content. And if a well-coordinated group of top lvl pvxers have a planned route each evening, where they farm out a room until its boss respawns (because they knew the earliest timer) - they should be able to clear 5-6 such rooms throughout their gameplay on that day (3-4h worth of it). Those rooms could be located within one huge dungeon or spread out over several, that's beside the point imo.

It's just that outside of that top lvl content, any other way less-skilled group of people could still sit in the same rooms and fight those difficult mobs (which would be super difficult for that group of players) and they'd also have a tiny chance to progress, even if they can't secure a boss for themselves yet. And that very progression would then allow them to secure a boss later on.

This is pretty much how it worked in L2 (there were just less bosses than what I'd want for Ashes, and obviously mobs were dumb easy). Was this not the case in the AA Library?

Chicago

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Open world dungeons imply that there'll be a party for each boss as soon as that boss respawns.

Only in a game with a low ratio of content to players.

The only way people will spend their time in game "running around" is if Intrepid don't put in base population - which would be a mistake.

What I will say is as someone that has played your ideal of dungeon (Archeage library), and the kind I am talking about (EQ2 PvP server), there is a reason I am excited about the prospect of one ideal, and consider the other to be the worst gameplay in have seen in any genre.

Your assumption on how it will be played is only true if the design is wrong.

Essentially, you are saying you want dungeons where players sit still and dare the same boring mobs over and over, with the only variation at all coming from potential PvP - but where everyone knows where your group is. It is the definition of boring, mundane predictable content.

I am talking about a dungeon where people are having to fight their way around, looking for boss mobs. Each of these bosses will fight differently already providing more variation. On top of that, while fighting your way between dungeons you are constantly happening upon cross roads, where groups could come at you from any number of directions making PvP also more variable.

That is how it worked in a game where the dungeons were just built for pure PvE rather than attempting to be backdrops for PvP. It was easily the best PvP group content I've ever played (some large scale PvP events beat it out, but aren't what dungeons are for).

This would be really great if it works out like this, but for this to be the case, the dungeons would have to be massive, i would love this to playout like dungeons being almost alive like a maze, being able to set traps and rogues open hidden doors, however in practice we really need to see alpha 2 to start testing, i know intrepid have stated that rogues will be able to open doors etc but my concerns are at any given time there could be up to 300-500 players in a dungeon, thats 60-90 different groups, for this to work intrepid realllllly need to nail dungeon content, so in my opinion it will either be extremley fun or extremley bad, we are yet to see but im confident lol, maybe thry can make the bosses spawn in different locations of the dungeon not just a random respawn or make it so you need to kill 5 bosses at the same time to spawn the last boss, i dont know how they will do it but well see!

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

Was this not the case in the AA Library?

Sadly AA Ayanad library had no PvP(on Trion NA/EU servers)(RU OFF had pvp tho) for it to be properly applied to the PvX context even tho they were far from being useless to farm, not a lot of bosses there(around ~9) but they had reasonably fast ~4 hour spawns, both monsters and bosses were even easier than L2 ones, so i don't think it can be considered "your ideal dungeon"...

L2-like open world dungeons sadly wasn't really a thing in AA(closest thing was possibly Arcadian Sea Sunken Ruins).

Dygz

Depraved wrote: »

I like combat, and I want to roleplay as the savior of the continent, and for that reason, I like slaying mobs. how dare you tell me that's not roleplaying? I'm going to roleplay as the witcher and kill all those monsters and you cant tell me I'm not roleplaying. shame on you.

Except... I didn't say you couldn't be "RPing" while farming mobs.
You can do that much RP in an FPS or a Survival game or an Adventure game - you can RP that much in a Sports game if you want to. Probably even in a Fighter or Flight Sim.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

unless you are willing to say that running around for several hours talking to npc's and maybe killing 5 mobs per hour is more fun. at this point, you aren't even playing your character anymore.

Who said anything about talking to NPC's?

You've made some assumptions in here, my dude.

I'm not talking about quests at all - honestly them existing or not in a dungeon like what I am talking about is a totally different discussion.

Also, I am talking about 5 bosses per hour, not 5 mobs, as I said above, the number of mobs (base population) is a function of how mobile the developers want players to be. That is in contrast to your grand total of zero bosses per hour in (most) static spot/location farming situations.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

By "base population" do you mean general mobs that I'm talking about? So you agree that there should be plain mobs in these locations as well?

Yeah, they would have to exist as essentially a timing mechanic.

These mobs "could" be farmed, but if the zone is designed well, the best way to farm these mobs would still to be mobile.

Why would I (or any other group) fight people in-between farms? If we're just boss hunting then the most optimal course of action is to run around each and every room where a boss should spawn any minute (again, if they'll be respawning super fast or if there's a shitton of them throughout the server's primetime). And there'd be literally 0 point in wasting time on pvp, while running between rooms, because that pvp would simply hold us back from being the first ones to see a newly respawned boss.

You would PvP in these dungeons for two main reasons.

The first is rivalry. I don't think this needs more explination.

The second is that if these dungeons are the size they should be, it would take an hour or more to get back to where you are from the respawn point. Killing a group gives you a better, cleaner shot at what ever bosses are around you for the next hour or so.

The second best course of actions is to literally sit in an empty room and wait for the boss to respawn. Though this one only applies if bosses have a very short +-period on their respawns.

If you know a specific boss is about to spawn (within it's 15 - 10 minute window), sitting around waiting for it may be viable if that specific boss is the only one you are after for what ever reason.

On the other hand, if you are just generally killing/farming in general, remaining in one place is inefficient in comparison to just going after the boss in the next area over that has already respawned.

I literally want the same thing as you, but with even more good content. And if a well-coordinated group of top lvl pvxers have a planned route each evening, where they farm out a room until its boss respawns (because they knew the earliest timer) - they should be able to clear 5-6 such rooms throughout their gameplay on that day (3-4h worth of it). Those rooms could be located within one huge dungeon or spread out over several, that's beside the point imo.

They should be able to clear out 5 or 6 of those rooms an hour.

That's ok though, there are literally 94 or 95 other rooms. By the time that group has cleared out their 5 or 6 in an hour, the first of those rooms has respawned.

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Was this not the case in the AA Library?

Sadly AA Ayanad library had no PvP(on Trion NA/EU servers)(RU OFF had pvp tho) for it to be properly applied to the PvX context even tho they were far from being useless to farm, not a lot of bosses there(around ~9) but they had reasonably fast ~4 hour spawns, both monsters and bosses were even easier than L2 ones, so i don't think it can be considered "your ideal dungeon"...

L2-like open world dungeons sadly wasn't really a thing in AA(closest thing was possibly Arcadian Sea Sunken Ruins).

Yeah, the NA/EU version of library didn't have PvP, but it really didn't matter.

One of the private servers I played on well after I left the Trion version of the game had PvP enabled in the library, and it was just as shit of a zone to be in.

The best description I have of the zone (PvP or no) is that it is basically just the 3D manifestation of the notion of "meh".

JamesSunderland

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Was this not the case in the AA Library?

Sadly AA Ayanad library had no PvP(on Trion NA/EU servers)(RU OFF had pvp tho) for it to be properly applied to the PvX context even tho they were far from being useless to farm, not a lot of bosses there(around ~9) but they had reasonably fast ~4 hour spawns, both monsters and bosses were even easier than L2 ones, so i don't think it can be considered "your ideal dungeon"...

L2-like open world dungeons sadly wasn't really a thing in AA(closest thing was possibly Arcadian Sea Sunken Ruins).

Yeah, the NA/EU version of library didn't have PvP, but it really didn't matter.

One of the private servers I played on well after I left the Trion version of the game had PvP enabled in the library, and it was just as shit of a zone to be in.

The best description I have of the zone (PvP or no) is that it is basically just the 3D manifestation of the notion of "meh".

Other than it's rather unique outside view and it's "creative"(not really) layout, i have little to no praises for AA's Ayanad library(even with PvP, without PvP it's a complete joke), its system design flaws were too big to be ignored, like it lagging the hell up when holding not a very high number of players inside of it and such number not being even near enough to create spot/room scarcity for conflict, very little to none drop variation/uniqueness between the monsters(again no scarcity for conflict), worthless mini bosses(not even decently rewarding or challenging to compete for), completely static respawns timers, location and types of monsters of each room, It's main quest was not terrible, i guess.

"meh" almost looks like a compliment for it in my eyes tbh.

daveywavey

From what I've gathered, the idea is that they want the dungeon loot to be contested. Player caps would reduce that.

As far as boss respawns go, there will be groups that want to hold their position, and there will be groups that want to roam around. This itself will create contested space, and will encourage PvP while waiting on the respawns. Hopefully the respawns will be such that the boss drops aren't too plentiful.

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Was this not the case in the AA Library?

Sadly AA Ayanad library had no PvP(on Trion NA/EU servers)(RU OFF had pvp tho) for it to be properly applied to the PvX context even tho they were far from being useless to farm, not a lot of bosses there(around ~9) but they had reasonably fast ~4 hour spawns, both monsters and bosses were even easier than L2 ones, so i don't think it can be considered "your ideal dungeon"...

L2-like open world dungeons sadly wasn't really a thing in AA(closest thing was possibly Arcadian Sea Sunken Ruins).

Yeah, the NA/EU version of library didn't have PvP, but it really didn't matter.

One of the private servers I played on well after I left the Trion version of the game had PvP enabled in the library, and it was just as shit of a zone to be in.

The best description I have of the zone (PvP or no) is that it is basically just the 3D manifestation of the notion of "meh".

Other than it's rather unique outside view and it's "creative"(not really) layout, i have little to no praises for AA's Ayanad library(even with PvP, without PvP it's a complete joke), its system design flaws were too big to be ignored, like it lagging the hell up when holding not a very high number of players inside of it and such number not being even near enough to create spot/room scarcity for conflict, very little to none drop variation/uniqueness between the monsters(again no scarcity for conflict), worthless mini bosses(not even decently rewarding or challenging to compete for), completely static respawns timers, location and types of monsters of each room, It's main quest was not terrible, i guess.

"meh" almost looks like a compliment for it in my eyes tbh.

The performance of the zone seems (from my perspective) to be mostly a NA/EU and Korea problem.

My understanding is that the RU version didn't have the issue, I know the Chinese version didn't (don't know about the Japanese version), and the private servers I played on didn't seem to have it either.

I was a part of a 120-ish player fight in the zone - but it was still shit.

Child Item