Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Same for TTK.
And in RPGs it supposed to be that TTK is slow enough for members of the group to strategize about how to best synergize their inidividual abilities and tactics.
NWO combat is my sweet-spot for speed of Action Combat in MMORPGs.
My main point of posting those vids were to say that open world dungeon should be able to support those amounts of people. As we've discussed recently, I want the pve part of dungeons to be of way higher quality than L2's. And Intrepid promised that. I won't believe them until they show at least one damn complex and difficult mob, but that's most likely a thing for late-stage A2 testing.
Oh, and as I've also stated before, mobs should account for zergs and have some counters to that, on top of general environmental hazards.
Tbh, the locations in the videos were 80% of time relatively calm and PvE players (There was... some) were not really bothered.
But, as I saw on an other thread, it seems we (By we, I mean people who write here) didn't have the same definition of PvX, which doesn't help.
If I want instanced content I'll petition Intrepid to add some equivalent of Beastmen Seals so that just killing mobs well is a gateway to some instanced boss or area of my choosing, removing the overall problem.
Since there's no entirely safe way to collect these efficiently in an L2 style game, this would be more than enough for me if the game was otherwise unable to offer engaging PvE content due to the Open World Dungeon dynamics.
If groups were well run and you had the appropriate buffs like KEI things went faster.
there are better ways to make non being in combat constantly than waiting 5 minutes doing nothing for every minute of fight.
also, you arent in constant combat in an fps =x
you have no idea what you are talking about. those fights are happening because they are waiting for a boss. normally, you dont have that many people in those dungeons.
also, its not just an aoe fest...you are workng with your party and coordinating your skills with theirs. each party is independant. good buffers and healers make the difference. you just have other parties next to you that are working with their own members as well. also, the aoes in l2 have very low range, so you have to be close to the enemy, which means you can get picked off.
ive been in those fights many times and its really exciting. im not against small scale pvp but 1v1 is for antisocials. id say there is less skills involved in 1v1 or 3v3 9and its more about gear or playing whatever is op or rock paper scissor) than big fights or party vs party.
So do I.
Who suggested that?
you did
When I talk about dungeons supporting players, I am talking about there being enough worthwhile content for that many people - that is a dungeons function, so as far as I am concerned that is the only metric worth talking about (you are welcome to talk about how many players can be in one dungeon before it crashes with others, if you like, it just isn't anything I am interested in discussing).
As for event mobs and such - they shouldn't be spawned in dungeons. Events and such should happen in overland areas.
Dungeons are among the primary content types in RPG's - including MMORPG's. Players go to dungeons for a specific reason, for specific content.
Developers shouldn't be fucking with that.
nope. that depends on the overall design. if you are making a game where everybody is a winner, then sure. if you make it so that any single dungeon can have content for all 10k players at the same time, then whats the point of fighting over content? that goes against ashes design. just because something was good in one game, doesn't mean it's desired in another game or that it will fit it or goes in the same direction of that game.
if you lose the pvp for the dungeon, then you go level up somewhere else or farm something else, sell it, and buy whatever you wanted to get from that dungeon.
What's wrong with that? again, you are saying "should be" as if it was the only valid way to do something, and doing it in any other way is bad, and you base it on previous games you played.
A bit of both. The dungeon should let all those people inside w/o problem, they should be able to move through the dungeon with environmental problems/hazards (so zergs have a more difficult life) and there should be enough rooms with mobs/bosses to support all those players split into groups/raids - all at the same time.
The value should be different between the rooms, so that it's not just a participation trophy fest and people will have to fight others from time to time, if they want to get juicier loot.
EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played.
As I said to NiKr above, EQ2 is the most competitive game I have ever played.
Not the most competitive MMO. The even the most competitive computer game.
The most competitive game.
Everyone having some content to run does not mean there is no competition, it just means everyone has some content to run.
The only time you could conflate the two is if the games content is so easy that access means success - and if that is the case you have a game with shit content that is relying 100% on PvP.
I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there.
And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people.
Competitive guilds/people will compete regardless, so more people just adds to the bottom of the pile, not the top.
Sometime not really faster, but nonstop. The puller would go get more mobs when the health of the last ones was getting low and the fight kept going on and on... A caster would maybe sit to meditate for a pull or two, or cast only one spell per pull. Full party breaks would happen when there was multiple people low on mana or when the puller had to wait for the respawn. Ideally, it would happen more or less at the same time.
But more often than not, groups were camping a spawn location and spending a good amount of time waiting.
based on your logic, people can simply leave the dungeon and do content somewhere else if they cant pvp. touche.
again, because it was good in another game, doesn't mean it will fit ashes. if everybody can be in the dungeon at the same time, that removes the possibility of conflict, which in turn, fuel other game mechanics. you would be going in another direction and destroying other parts of the game.
also, what do you mean by competitive? you have to fight other players for content? so not everybody can run everything at the same time? can you block others from progressing?
When a faction gain access, they poured down the dungeon from the top and just steamroll the lower levels and kept going down. Some of the people fighting the mobs inside would stay at their spot as long as they could, but most would rush to the top to meet the new invaders.
Logging off in the dungeon and coming back with only enemies was... interesting. Some stealthers used the opportunity to kill for as long as they could without getting caught.
Good times
Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in.
Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears.
Fair point. The best spots and groups always had a fight going.
Both you and NiKr are generally wrong about this, and Noaani is correct.
The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre.
But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this, this post is 'for certain other people'. If you make dungeons bigger to attract more players so that you get more competition within the groups that enter it, you will get the opposite result.
This is true even for the mid level player, because the mid level player's perception is that their true competition is the high level player. In a progressive game where two groups that 'want to topple a stronger opponent' have an option to 'not fight each other, but instead attack the stronger opponent, either sequentially or simultaneously', this is what they generally take.
The stronger opponent does not experience this as more actual competition, just more opponents that they defeat.
incorrect. The way talent/skill/resources are distributed doesn't change across activities. it's a Pareto distribution.
But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this.
Not in competitive games, because the lower bound leaves or doesn't try. Pareto applies when everyone has the same incentive to participate and only standard opportunity cost.
Opening the dungeon to more people does not 'automatically make more people appear'. There is no 'matchmaking that causes people to enter the dungeon of their skill level'.
But I believe that yes, we've both made our points now, unless you have a note for this one too. You claim that skill distribution follows Pareto, and I claim that it does not because of the behavioural factors involved in certain design. I don't actually even think you're wrong, I just don't think you added the factor I'm adding. If you believe that even after the addition of that factor, it's still true, or believe 'that the thing I claimed happens, doesn't happen', please clarify for the 'audience', and 'they' can decide based on their own knowledge/experience/intuition.
At that point I'd obviously be unable to continue the conversation either way, as you'd be outright discrediting the only premise I have for my view.
You must be missing the point, and trying to relate this to something else in some manner. More people playing a game, means more competition, means from competition people reach a higher level of gameplay.
To go against the idea more high lvl players completing does not lead to a higher skill level, would be going against saying you know how competitive scenes work.
We are talking about the overall experience with the game and its total population and the people it brings in. If the game were to reach that level of point with active pvp and meaningful pvp that is going to translate over to dungeons as well.
to focus on the element you are trying to do a cop out to your argument by saying people will work together as a means to win so isn't competitive.
That part is completely false as well first off you are ignoring all other possible situations to focus on one type of instance in the game. It actually a naïve point to make, for the person that is strong enough to fight to has to deal with a higher level of competition against them to win. That conflict will breed growth of the player if they can overcome it. Simply having odds against you does not remove competition.
Second there are so many scarious that can come up, trying to say this is the reason why it isn't competitive is silly. Effectively you are ignoring everything else that can hand to hold you gun onto one point.
End note the more people are having conflict with each other, the larger the player base the more high level of competition that will grow within the game. To refuse that I'd question if one knows what they are talking about or has been in a competitive scene before.
That's my bad then, I thought NiKr and Noaani were talking about dungeons and the effect on dungeons.
I hope this isn't a situation where they were talking about that and you are now 'off in your own world talking about something else and not telling other people'.
It's Friday so I've got the usual time but...
@NiKr, it's your call if I run the gauntlet today.
Yes, I know that the Pareto Principle is a massive stretch when applied to this at all, but I choose to give Depraved the benefit of the doubt in their 'challenge' and treat it as the shorthand version of the application of the principle to the same structure rather than gripe about how Pareto vs Normal Distribution isn't even the same category of thing.
No need to PM or extern-ping me about it today.
You can't talk about competition and only look at one element of the game. Competition as a whole of the game should be looked at and than you can look at one element which would be dungeons and how it relates together.
If conflict causes player growth else where the same is going to be said of the dungeons. IE a top siege guild comes into the dungeon and brings a high level of competition from the elements of team work they took from siege.
Players trying to overcome their members, be it from skill team work, etc. All leads to further player grow when it comes to skill. The higher the competition the more growth that will happen.