DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

Xeeg wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters

Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.

There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?

Indeed this type of solution is what Ashes wants, and what ffxiv does too. Maybe it is just about money, that it is cheaper to not have forums than to pay mods to keep toxicity out. Same it is perhaps cheaper to not allow meters than to have gms moderate toxicity that comes from bullying underperforming players

Xeeg

Tragnar wrote: »

Indeed this type of solution is what Ashes wants, and what ffxiv does too. Maybe it is just about money, that it is cheaper to not have forums than to pay mods to keep toxicity out. Same it is perhaps cheaper to not allow meters than to have gms moderate toxicity that comes from bullying underperforming players

I can understand that. I've played games where there are no ways to talk to the other team, and limited ways to talk to your own team due to toxic players. Not that I'm advocating this, but I've seen it and understand the logic.

However, Steven seems to be more than happy to put in elements that can be used by toxic people in Ashes, as a way of creating conflict and reasons to pvp each other. They also find ways to mitigate the damage that toxic people can do. The whole corruption systems and mayoral systems seem to be built on this. Maybe throughout this thread they can find ways to implement dps/decurse/ability logs in a way that provides players the information they are looking for while mitigating the damage that toxic players can do with it.

I mean, if a conflict over DPS meters is one more reason to backstab your guild and create "drama", isn't that what they are going for?

Ruerik

I can tell you that DPS meters arent really the source of toxicity. Its when people have different mindsets about how they want to run a team, which has been discussed in this 200 page thesis dozens of times already.

Toxic players gonna be toxic no matter what.

What will happen with a DPS meter regarding kicks, and I can tell you from my experience, which certainly wont match yours as its what has been my experience, but I can say.
Well, at the very least, if I were running a pickup group and not going with a guild team. If I notice someone underperforming to the point it is interfering with progression or getting a clear.... They will not get a kick. It is a flat out waste of me and all the other players at the raid if someone were to be kicked during raid time, because then I have to use valuable time when me and 23 other players are sitting around to fill the empty spot, when we could be raiding and learning boss mechanics.

We will finish out the night, and then I will just tell that person bluntly, that I will not be inviting that player back next week or next time. I will wish them well, and if they improve performance to around near average of what everyone else is doing, they can join then. I will then spend the time between raids to find a replacement.

There is no reason to be toxic to someone, or worse belittle someone in voice chat with other players listening. Best to stay on good terms with folks I will likely still want to play other parts of the game with.

Also the plus side of staying on good terms with as many folks as I can, is if they want to do something, and know that I are capable at xyz activity, they may ask me to come help them get that clear in their own group, or defend pvp or do whatever.

Conversely, If I am in another team run by someone else, I may be looking at data between pulls. But it is not my group, its not my place to make any comments publicly or privately about one person or another. I'm there to play and have a good time.

Now just take a moment, replace DPS meter with any other game activity or tool that is controversial in games, and you will see its the same discussion for that topic as it is with DPS meters. The common thing is people just need to be chill and play the game.

And a topic someone might want to start in a new thread, if they feel strongly about it. Is how should Intrepid try to regulate toxicity. What constitutes 'being mean' sort of thing.

Mag7spy

Xeeg wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters

Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.

There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?

People may be toxic for other reasons but it won't be from the meter mentality and that is the point. Saying people can be toxic for other reasons isn't really a valid argument. Point is toxic mentality around meter is removed or immensely decreased. Rather than allowing them to provide physical tangible metric for people to hold onto, and greatly amplify toxicity.

Your point on there should be no forums makes absolutely 0 sense you are using weak points to defend crappy meters. Forums should exist but you have rules, and mods to reduce toxic elements and keep people in check. That is the correct comparison, not something weak like saying no forums.

This is why i find it funny for people being for meters and trying to make arguments about dps meters / trackers not being toxic. Trying to act like they don't amplify it to high levels, trying to ignore how things currently are and why the mentality is against them, dislike or not wanting other people to see their stats. The mentality has echoed in this thread against it.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

I can tell you that DPS meters arent really the source of toxicity.

This is the truth.

People that think there is a combat tracker mentality simply don't know what they are talking about - and using those words is in itself proof that they have no idea (looking at you, Steven).

Fact is, there is an efficiency mentality, and combat trackers are a tool these people invariably use. The tool isn't the source of this mentality, it is a result of it.

For the most part, people with this efficiency mentality only want to run content in a game with others that have this mentality. When this happens, there are zero issues (this is why I have literally never once seen the issues others talk about).

The issues only ever come when people that don't want that efficiency attempt to run content with those that do want it. This usually only happens when either the game forms groups (LFG/LFR), or when the player not wanting that efficiency literally lies (or is in some way untruthful) in order to get in to the group running the content they want to run.

Then, after telling said lie, when it is found that they are not interested in that efficiency based gsmeplay, they accuse those that are of being toxic.

The core of the issue literally is people not wanting to be efficient trying to run content with people that do want to be. They are the ones arguing against it (Steven), even though they literally are the root cause of the toxicity that they experience.

If these people just stayed in their own damn lane, and left those of us wanting to play efficiently to ourselves, their issues would disappear over night.

Tragnar

Are there already some sim tools for the closed alpha?

NyceGaming

After finally reading all of the current 203 pages of this forum discussion, I feel I have the best solution to this debate. This intelligent compromise will fare well for both sides and I think it is the perfect way to ensure both sides are happy. It took a lot of research and coming to an understanding of the pros and cons having a dps meter will bring. I will break down each of my points in a detailed bullet point format. By the end of this discussion, I feel I will have convinced you to agree with me. I will site sources and discuss the strongest arguments I've read thus far in this thread. If after reading my synopsis, you still disagree then I will willingly challenge you to find flaws in this solution. I feel this debate has lasted years without a common compromise. I feel the solution is as follows. The correct way to approach ashes of creation is with an open mind. An open mind to understand the thoughts of everyone in Verra's way of thinking. Not just your own. So how does DPS meters come into play here? What value do they add? Well first to understand that, we must understand that Dunir are trash dwarves. I think if we really break down the debate of if DPS meters are needed and/or if they are toxic we must first establish this. Also DPS meters aren't needed. Source: Trust me bro. I truly hope that I have opened your mind on this matter and look forward to your responses. Hopefully this compromise and intellectual suggestion is passed on to Intrepid. Thank You for reading.
- Nyce Gaming

Ludullu

NyceGaming wrote: »

Nyce Gaming

Is that a new name for an AI or something?

NyceGaming

NiKr wrote: »

NyceGaming wrote: »

Nyce Gaming

Is that a new name for an AI or something?

i'm ashamed to say that I wrote that myself lol

Ludullu

NyceGaming wrote: »

i'm ashamed to say that I wrote that myself lol

I meaaan, some might consider that a skill. A useless one, but a skill nonetheless

NyceGaming

lmao

George_Black

Nyce, I was reading what you said, and before I could even see the end of the post, I thought "I'd better save my reply until I get in front of a PC, and tackle each point in an organized format", which I rarely bother doing.

And then, still far from the end of the walltext tunnel, it hit me....

10/10

BlackBrony

Yeah, let's get combat trackers.
After that we can get addons that tells us when a boss is about to use a skills. I mean, you can't stop people from using Addons, you won't be able to prevent it from happening.

Enigmatic Sage

Probably going to happen eventually...

Ruerik

Went longer than expected. Thought it wouldve been much sooner to see this thread necroed. Then theres a fresh account made just this morning to set off the debate/re-debate/re-re-debate.

Shall we try for 400?

Enigmatic Sage

Taerrik wrote: »

Went longer than expected. Thought it wouldve been much sooner to see this thread necroed. Then theres a fresh account made just this morning to set off the debate/re-debate/re-re-debate.

Shall we try for 400?

may as well aim for 300 pages first. seems more practical. We can safely assume they're coming to the game eventually.

Ruerik

300 it is

A real time DPS meter will not likely be a thing until after launch, someone has to write an app from scratch, or make a plugin for ACT.

A deadly boss mods callout mod will not be until after that. But if the bosses are as easy as I am afraid of, they will never happen.

The ability to parse combat logs to get an after battle full numbers breakdown of every participant, will be a thing not long after alpha2. Anyone can write a parser with even the most basic coding skills.

Enigmatic Sage

Taerrik wrote: »

300 it is

A real time DPS meter will not likely be a thing until after launch, someone has to write an app from scratch, or make a plugin for ACT.

A deadly boss mods callout mod will not be until after that. But if the bosses are as easy as I am afraid of, they will never happen.

The ability to parse combat logs to get an after battle full numbers breakdown of every participant, will be a thing not long after alpha2. Anyone can write a parser with even the most basic coding skills.

I'm against meters but there is no point denying the inevitable.

Who knows, maybe they'll end up going full tab target during alpha 2. lol

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Went longer than expected. Thought it wouldve been much sooner to see this thread necroed. Then theres a fresh account made just this morning to set off the debate/re-debate/re-re-debate.

Shall we try for 400?

may as well aim for 300 pages first. seems more practical. We can safely assume they're coming to the game eventually.

Eventually?

They will be in use in alpha 2.

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Went longer than expected. Thought it wouldve been much sooner to see this thread necroed. Then theres a fresh account made just this morning to set off the debate/re-debate/re-re-debate.

Shall we try for 400?

may as well aim for 300 pages first. seems more practical. We can safely assume they're coming to the game eventually.

Eventually?

They will be in use in alpha 2.

sounds like an eventual time.

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