The point is devs should not implement a UI for DPS meters and therefore not design mobs with the expectation that we must rely on precise calculations derived from DPS meters in order to defeat boss encounters.
We agree that no one should be required to eek out the max dps possible just to defeat a boss. Fight design should be such that someone of average dps can win. (Known as, good enough). So long as they have the skill to perform any required mechanics and enough damage to clear before any dps checks on the fight, no reason they shouldnt be able to clear.
There might be some high end pve content where that bar for "doing enough" is higher, to make some bosses and content more challenging, this is in every game.
My point is, there is nothing wrong with players wanting to also do more, and for that, we do maths. Simple as that. In MMORPG games, it turns out we can have our cake and we can eat it too.
2
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes. Which is why Ashes will provide a personal combat log, but not a public combat tracker/DPS meter.
Its just, if the point is to prevent any possibility of a dps meter, then its necessary to look at the network traffic.
Since data is sent from the server, to your computer, about how much damage or healing you did to update your client on the world status, as a end user you actually have access to that, because it is data on your computer.
Even if the screen doesnt show anything to us as a player. Its a very challenging problem to keep information private.
The point is devs should not implement a UI for DPS meters and therefore not design mobs with the expectation that we must rely on precise calculations derived from DPS meters in order to defeat boss encounters.
The problem is that devs have a lot of difficulty, in my experience, tuning content because of their own innate abilities showing through and affecting the requirements.
We can use the same Monster Hunter example, actually. Enemy HP doesn't show in Monster Hunter, until they are low enough to be captured, then you can see them have a visual 'tic' to show it, but ONLY if they aren't pushing to kill you, basically, you have to give them a breather.
If the objective of the quest is to capture, this means you can miss it, and kill the monster, without meaning to, in some cases.
My team relies on me to 'somehow' know its HP well enough with EVERYTHING going on, to line it up so that you can 'set the trap, use the tranquilizers, have it fall into the trap and the damage that is done to it WHILE it is in the trap is what brings it to the HP threshold'.
Why can I do this? We don't know, but there are many things like it, in life. Devs design things off what they THINK is the minimum requirement of skill that they want to work for the content, and can miss the fact that one of their natural talents is making it possible.
Similarly the other way, if a Dev finds a specific thing very hard to do personally and builds an encounter around it and their QA are average/similar to them, then the moment that encounter makes contact with someone who has the related talent, they down it without thinking.
I know that your point is sorta that the game shouldn't necessarily be particularly challenging in the first place, but designing mobs to be a challenge 'without certain talents' doesn't feel like a good strategy for application to the bulk of content.
Yes. Which is why Ashes will provide a personal combat log, but not a public combat tracker/DPS meter.
I'm actually a little confused here, Dygz, because I think you've previously implied awareness that most of the time, people just 'upload logs to a website which does the parsing'.
I felt like we were on the same page in terms of your 'understanding' that the two things are minimally different in practice... is this the same as the FF14 thing where as long as no one can talk about it, you're fine with it, so the combat log is ok?
We can use the same Monster Hunter example, actually. Enemy HP doesn't show in Monster Hunter, until they are low enough to be captured, then you can see them have a visual 'tic' to show it, but ONLY if they aren't pushing to kill you, basically, you have to give them a breather.
Looks like in Monster Hunter, you gauge your own Health to decide when to disengage and regain enough Health to continue your attack.
And that is still a visual Health meter. Seems like there are no numbers.
But, the visual Health meter is there because we lack senses, like pain, to help us guage when Health is low.
Obviously as tech gets better, it becomes easier for us to rely on more nuanced cues to guage the Health of our prey. We can expect those to still be mostly visual.
At some point the tech will be good enough that Health meters become obsolete.
I know that your point is sorta that the game shouldn't necessarily be particularly challenging in the first place, but designing mobs to be a challenge 'without certain talents' doesn't feel like a good strategy for application to the bulk of content.
That is not my point at all.
My point is that we should not need to crunch numbers to defeat an encounter.
We should be able to stack our attacks strategically enough with the attacks of our group members to be successful.
Looking at a DPS meter should not be a required tool for successfully completing dungeons.
If the devs provide a DPS meter, that will design the dungeon encounters expecting that DPS meters will be the primary tool used to anylyze dungeon combat.
Just as they will design encounters assuming most players will rely on Health meters if they provide Health meters.
I don't know how it got to this hilarious topic of health numbers being shown or not, because it doesn't matter at all for a functioning meter.
DPS Meter only needs to have displayed every damage number for it to work - everything else is excess information.
If you want dps meters to "stop" working then you need to stop showing numbers and start showing "That's a lot of damage!" type of combat text feedback
and why i have "stop" in quotation marks is that there are ways to reverse engineer numbers from text feedback and even the health numbers, it takes research and a lot of data, but it can be done - it's basically the same type of work as physicists found out the laws of physics
Its just, if the point is to prevent any possibility of a dps meter, then its necessary to look at the network traffic.
Since data is sent from the server, to your computer, about how much damage or healing you did to update your client on the world status, as a end user you actually have access to that, because it is data on your computer.
Even if the screen doesnt show anything to us as a player. Its a very challenging problem to keep information private.
Absolutely correct. Any information that is client side can be hacked and then the devs have to chase hackers. Many of which will not be detectable. My opinion is that if a rule can't reasonably be enforced, then you are only punishing those that follow it and the devs might as well make it easy for all players to do it.
First off, thank you Dygz for keeping your response respectful, it's appreciated. I am starting to see what you guys are talking about, and maybe misunderstood some of the arguments here.
Ideally, we should be Roleplaying rather than rollplaying.
This is a matter of personal preference. Not everyone agrees with that.
HOWEVER, I am starting to come around to what you guys are talking about. I used to play a game called MajorMUD. It was a full loot PVP MUD, and when you "looked" at another player or a monster it would have tiers of health descriptions, with no numbers. It would say things like "Unwounded", "Barely Wounded", "Moderately Wounded", "Heavily Wounded", "Critically Wounded", etc.
You would still see your own health and mana numbers and you would see damage dealt each round. You could figure out how much health a monster had by just adding up damage over all the rounds. Eventually addons came out that had all the information and you could min/max the game. They had average round calculators, a synonym for "DPS meters" at the time, etc. So this just goes to show that DPS meters have been around longer than graphics have been around on the internet. MUDs were like the early text versions of MMOs.
On a side note, when Baldurs Gate 3 came out I asked my old group of buddies to start a campaign, go into the game blind (not watching youtube), roleplay our characters, and play turn based. That seemed like it would be fun. One of the guys completely ignored this and started linking youtube videos about the game right away. Then, because of one youtube video, someone had to pick the "face" of the party, and suddenly we were all sectioned off into different roles we were allowed to be. Another guy was a hardcore D&D player and wanted us all to preplan or min/max our characters from levels 1-12 (prior to character creation), and would critique every decision we made as being "not good", or not synergizing with the team. So it took forever to even make a character. Then they didn't want to play turn based because it would take too long. The whole thing turned into a total disaster because people would accidentally trigger events that the "face" was supposed to trigger and everyone quit after the first session and just said its probably better as a single player game.
Now I could blame the game for this disaster, which they did and maybe there is some truth to that. Or I could blame the group of people I played with for turning something that could have been a fun experience into something that was a total train wreck.
This anecdote means that I understand where you guys are coming from. Sometimes too much information in a game ends up creating needless conflict and time spent on things other than just playing the game and having fun. Still, though, there will inevitably be conflict and how the people you play with handle conflict resolution is also important.
Now I could blame the game for this disaster, which they did and maybe there is some truth to that. Or I could blame the group of people I played with for turning something that could have been a fun experience into something that was a total train wreck.
This is just a classic case of a group of people going in to a piece of content with differing expectations.
If everyone went in wanting to either min/max or everyone going in blind, you wouldn't have had the issue.
Now, I'm not pointing finger specifically at any of the people involved in your story, but it was very much a people based issue rather than anything else. As your story here points out, it is an issue that is completely removed from the question of combat trackers - it will exist any time people attempt to go in to a piece of content with differing expectations.
This comes down to a point I made probably 180 pages ago or so - people like myself and Dygz shouldn't ever be trying to run content together. He wants to roleplay (as is his right), and I want to be as efficient as possible (as is my right).
You may note that even in this small example, combat trackers aren't involved. That is because combat trackers don't give players a mindset, players already have their mindset.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents in this cluster of a thread, and to say it's really refreshing to see the mods (at least from the first few pages) having meaningful discussions with players.
I like the idea of dps meters in theory, as I obviously want to play my class to the best of my ability and pull my weight. Even if I'm not a hardcore player, it's great to know which builds / rotations work best and just to kinda see how I'm doing.
However, I do not think a dps meter works in practice. I've played wow up to cata, I was in a pretty good guild in wotlk and even got a few world first kills. I totally understand why people would want to measure dps to improve. But trying to use one simple number to gauge if someone is pulling their weight just does not work and I don't think people understand why it's a bad measurement.
I re-played classic wow on the official blizzard servers and got into a pretty good guild again. However that guild was always trying to push the meters and have their raiders be on the server top damage for a boss. I thought this was cool and tried to support this. One way I did this, as a mage with not as good of gear as everyone else, was to make sure to de-curse everyone asap. One hilarious story from this is that on the shazzrah fight no one would de-curse because everyone wanted to be top on the meters and the melee were upset. They offered 50g to whoever had the most de-curses, and I made sure I got the 50g lol. Because the melee didn't have to worry about getting 1 shot, they could stay in and eat the aoe and do more dps. We actually ended up killing that boss faster than any other of the guild previous attempts. However I got reprimanded by the raid leader for having terrible dps. I tried to explain on that fight I was de-cursing the melee, but they didn't care: "Thats the healers job and we need more dps". He didn't care that we were already low on healers so we could fit more dps in the raid, he didn't care that we actually did more overall dps when I help the melee instead.
It's funny to think that this guild had many of the top dps spots for bosses on that server, but couldn't get past C'thun. This is what I mean by dps being a worthless measurement: It doesn't matter if you're the best guild on the server with top dps if you can't do the boss mechanics and actually beat the boss. Dps meters just encourage people to play the game like it's single player and just stand there and mash buttons so they can have the biggest numbers.
Apples and Oranges, one doesnt impact the other.
Doing top dps doesn't have anything to do with failing mechanics.
If anything, the existence of mechanics making it harder to actually perform doing DPS makes it more necessary to have the measurement tools.
After all, with 64 combinations of classes types and even further many more builds and gear layouts than that, it is not possible there will be "one build or one strategy fits all" solution.
Sure you can feel your way out to victory being just good enough, but as you said, the folks wanting to push top numbers have to look in to each encounter separately, using data from that encounter, to find the right balance of gear/skill/class to do those top numbers.
Its a per encounter thing, cant just max out on a combat dummy and expect to do the same in a fight.
Like i said before u can't remove it, but just have things lean more towards skill and such and you can curb how much people will care about it. Making people need ones that have skill and ability over just numbers.
I mean they could always make the game with DPS meters and then a whole bunch of monsters/bosses that troll you for trying to get top dps with some mechanic... shrug...
I mean they could always make the game with DPS meters and then a whole bunch of monsters/bosses that troll you for trying to get top dps with some mechanic... shrug...
This actually exists in modern games and is a part of optimization to clear the encounter. I can think of a half dozen in FF14 alone (since I'm currently playing that game for the moment).
Plenty of cases where if you DPS too hard you cause a wipe, or if you push the boss too low in HP before dealing with some other mechanic you are punished.
Its not about doing the max possible theoretical dps a build can do, its about doing the max possible you can do in the encounter and get the clear. And for that, we have data, so we can push the limits if we want to.
I mean they could always make the game with DPS meters and then a whole bunch of monsters/bosses that troll you for trying to get top dps with some mechanic... shrug...
This actually exists in modern games and is a part of optimization to clear the encounter. I can think of a half dozen in FF14 alone (since I'm currently playing that game for the moment).
Plenty of cases where if you DPS too hard you cause a wipe, or if you push the boss too low in HP before dealing with some other mechanic you are punished..
Then what’s the problem? I didn’t read all the posts, but if people are just complaining about guild leaders kicking you for low dps just get a new guild cause your leader is an ass, or “get good” cause it’s possible you just suck at the game.
I mean they could always make the game with DPS meters and then a whole bunch of monsters/bosses that troll you for trying to get top dps with some mechanic... shrug...
This actually exists in modern games and is a part of optimization to clear the encounter. I can think of a half dozen in FF14 alone (since I'm currently playing that game for the moment).
Plenty of cases where if you DPS too hard you cause a wipe, or if you push the boss too low in HP before dealing with some other mechanic you are punished..
Then what’s the problem? I didn’t read all the posts, but if people are just complaining about guild leaders kicking you for low dps just get a new guild cause your leader is an ass, or “get good” cause it’s possible you just suck at the game.
That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters
That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters
Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.
There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?
That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters
Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.
There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?
Indeed this type of solution is what Ashes wants, and what ffxiv does too. Maybe it is just about money, that it is cheaper to not have forums than to pay mods to keep toxicity out. Same it is perhaps cheaper to not allow meters than to have gms moderate toxicity that comes from bullying underperforming players
Indeed this type of solution is what Ashes wants, and what ffxiv does too. Maybe it is just about money, that it is cheaper to not have forums than to pay mods to keep toxicity out. Same it is perhaps cheaper to not allow meters than to have gms moderate toxicity that comes from bullying underperforming players
I can understand that. I've played games where there are no ways to talk to the other team, and limited ways to talk to your own team due to toxic players. Not that I'm advocating this, but I've seen it and understand the logic.
However, Steven seems to be more than happy to put in elements that can be used by toxic people in Ashes, as a way of creating conflict and reasons to pvp each other. They also find ways to mitigate the damage that toxic people can do. The whole corruption systems and mayoral systems seem to be built on this. Maybe throughout this thread they can find ways to implement dps/decurse/ability logs in a way that provides players the information they are looking for while mitigating the damage that toxic players can do with it.
I mean, if a conflict over DPS meters is one more reason to backstab your guild and create "drama", isn't that what they are going for?
I can tell you that DPS meters arent really the source of toxicity. Its when people have different mindsets about how they want to run a team, which has been discussed in this 200 page thesis dozens of times already.
Toxic players gonna be toxic no matter what.
What will happen with a DPS meter regarding kicks, and I can tell you from my experience, which certainly wont match yours as its what has been my experience, but I can say.
Well, at the very least, if I were running a pickup group and not going with a guild team. If I notice someone underperforming to the point it is interfering with progression or getting a clear.... They will not get a kick. It is a flat out waste of me and all the other players at the raid if someone were to be kicked during raid time, because then I have to use valuable time when me and 23 other players are sitting around to fill the empty spot, when we could be raiding and learning boss mechanics.
We will finish out the night, and then I will just tell that person bluntly, that I will not be inviting that player back next week or next time. I will wish them well, and if they improve performance to around near average of what everyone else is doing, they can join then. I will then spend the time between raids to find a replacement.
There is no reason to be toxic to someone, or worse belittle someone in voice chat with other players listening. Best to stay on good terms with folks I will likely still want to play other parts of the game with.
Also the plus side of staying on good terms with as many folks as I can, is if they want to do something, and know that I are capable at xyz activity, they may ask me to come help them get that clear in their own group, or defend pvp or do whatever.
Conversely, If I am in another team run by someone else, I may be looking at data between pulls. But it is not my group, its not my place to make any comments publicly or privately about one person or another. I'm there to play and have a good time.
Now just take a moment, replace DPS meter with any other game activity or tool that is controversial in games, and you will see its the same discussion for that topic as it is with DPS meters. The common thing is people just need to be chill and play the game.
And a topic someone might want to start in a new thread, if they feel strongly about it. Is how should Intrepid try to regulate toxicity. What constitutes 'being mean' sort of thing.
That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters
Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.
There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?
People may be toxic for other reasons but it won't be from the meter mentality and that is the point. Saying people can be toxic for other reasons isn't really a valid argument. Point is toxic mentality around meter is removed or immensely decreased. Rather than allowing them to provide physical tangible metric for people to hold onto, and greatly amplify toxicity.
Your point on there should be no forums makes absolutely 0 sense you are using weak points to defend crappy meters. Forums should exist but you have rules, and mods to reduce toxic elements and keep people in check. That is the correct comparison, not something weak like saying no forums.
This is why i find it funny for people being for meters and trying to make arguments about dps meters / trackers not being toxic. Trying to act like they don't amplify it to high levels, trying to ignore how things currently are and why the mentality is against them, dislike or not wanting other people to see their stats. The mentality has echoed in this thread against it.
I can tell you that DPS meters arent really the source of toxicity.
This is the truth.
People that think there is a combat tracker mentality simply don't know what they are talking about - and using those words is in itself proof that they have no idea (looking at you, Steven).
Fact is, there is an efficiency mentality, and combat trackers are a tool these people invariably use. The tool isn't the source of this mentality, it is a result of it.
For the most part, people with this efficiency mentality only want to run content in a game with others that have this mentality. When this happens, there are zero issues (this is why I have literally never once seen the issues others talk about).
The issues only ever come when people that don't want that efficiency attempt to run content with those that do want it. This usually only happens when either the game forms groups (LFG/LFR), or when the player not wanting that efficiency literally lies (or is in some way untruthful) in order to get in to the group running the content they want to run.
Then, after telling said lie, when it is found that they are not interested in that efficiency based gsmeplay, they accuse those that are of being toxic.
The core of the issue literally is people not wanting to be efficient trying to run content with people that do want to be. They are the ones arguing against it (Steven), even though they literally are the root cause of the toxicity that they experience.
If these people just stayed in their own damn lane, and left those of us wanting to play efficiently to ourselves, their issues would disappear over night.
After finally reading all of the current 203 pages of this forum discussion, I feel I have the best solution to this debate. This intelligent compromise will fare well for both sides and I think it is the perfect way to ensure both sides are happy. It took a lot of research and coming to an understanding of the pros and cons having a dps meter will bring. I will break down each of my points in a detailed bullet point format. By the end of this discussion, I feel I will have convinced you to agree with me. I will site sources and discuss the strongest arguments I've read thus far in this thread. If after reading my synopsis, you still disagree then I will willingly challenge you to find flaws in this solution. I feel this debate has lasted years without a common compromise. I feel the solution is as follows. The correct way to approach ashes of creation is with an open mind. An open mind to understand the thoughts of everyone in Verra's way of thinking. Not just your own. So how does DPS meters come into play here? What value do they add? Well first to understand that, we must understand that Dunir are trash dwarves. I think if we really break down the debate of if DPS meters are needed and/or if they are toxic we must first establish this. Also DPS meters aren't needed. Source: Trust me bro. I truly hope that I have opened your mind on this matter and look forward to your responses. Hopefully this compromise and intellectual suggestion is passed on to Intrepid. Thank You for reading.
- Nyce Gaming
Comments
How else would you know, for example, if adding 10 constitution will give you more HP than adding 100 raw HP?
Math is literally required to min/max, as without it you don't actually know of you are min/maxing at all.
We agree that no one should be required to eek out the max dps possible just to defeat a boss. Fight design should be such that someone of average dps can win. (Known as, good enough). So long as they have the skill to perform any required mechanics and enough damage to clear before any dps checks on the fight, no reason they shouldnt be able to clear.
There might be some high end pve content where that bar for "doing enough" is higher, to make some bosses and content more challenging, this is in every game.
My point is, there is nothing wrong with players wanting to also do more, and for that, we do maths. Simple as that. In MMORPG games, it turns out we can have our cake and we can eat it too.
The problem is that devs have a lot of difficulty, in my experience, tuning content because of their own innate abilities showing through and affecting the requirements.
We can use the same Monster Hunter example, actually. Enemy HP doesn't show in Monster Hunter, until they are low enough to be captured, then you can see them have a visual 'tic' to show it, but ONLY if they aren't pushing to kill you, basically, you have to give them a breather.
If the objective of the quest is to capture, this means you can miss it, and kill the monster, without meaning to, in some cases.
My team relies on me to 'somehow' know its HP well enough with EVERYTHING going on, to line it up so that you can 'set the trap, use the tranquilizers, have it fall into the trap and the damage that is done to it WHILE it is in the trap is what brings it to the HP threshold'.
Why can I do this? We don't know, but there are many things like it, in life. Devs design things off what they THINK is the minimum requirement of skill that they want to work for the content, and can miss the fact that one of their natural talents is making it possible.
Similarly the other way, if a Dev finds a specific thing very hard to do personally and builds an encounter around it and their QA are average/similar to them, then the moment that encounter makes contact with someone who has the related talent, they down it without thinking.
I know that your point is sorta that the game shouldn't necessarily be particularly challenging in the first place, but designing mobs to be a challenge 'without certain talents' doesn't feel like a good strategy for application to the bulk of content.
I'm actually a little confused here, Dygz, because I think you've previously implied awareness that most of the time, people just 'upload logs to a website which does the parsing'.
I felt like we were on the same page in terms of your 'understanding' that the two things are minimally different in practice... is this the same as the FF14 thing where as long as no one can talk about it, you're fine with it, so the combat log is ok?
"Is it ok for Devs to design encounters knowing that players will parse their combat logs, as long as there is no UI for 'DPS Meters'?"
(I probably wouldn't understand any reasoning either way, so if you are willing to answer, I'll take yes/no and not pester you more about it).
And that is still a visual Health meter. Seems like there are no numbers.
But, the visual Health meter is there because we lack senses, like pain, to help us guage when Health is low.
Obviously as tech gets better, it becomes easier for us to rely on more nuanced cues to guage the Health of our prey. We can expect those to still be mostly visual.
At some point the tech will be good enough that Health meters become obsolete.
That is not my point at all.
My point is that we should not need to crunch numbers to defeat an encounter.
We should be able to stack our attacks strategically enough with the attacks of our group members to be successful.
Looking at a DPS meter should not be a required tool for successfully completing dungeons.
If the devs provide a DPS meter, that will design the dungeon encounters expecting that DPS meters will be the primary tool used to anylyze dungeon combat.
Just as they will design encounters assuming most players will rely on Health meters if they provide Health meters.
DPS Meter only needs to have displayed every damage number for it to work - everything else is excess information.
If you want dps meters to "stop" working then you need to stop showing numbers and start showing "That's a lot of damage!" type of combat text feedback
and why i have "stop" in quotation marks is that there are ways to reverse engineer numbers from text feedback and even the health numbers, it takes research and a lot of data, but it can be done - it's basically the same type of work as physicists found out the laws of physics
― Plato
Absolutely correct. Any information that is client side can be hacked and then the devs have to chase hackers. Many of which will not be detectable. My opinion is that if a rule can't reasonably be enforced, then you are only punishing those that follow it and the devs might as well make it easy for all players to do it.
This is a matter of personal preference. Not everyone agrees with that.
HOWEVER, I am starting to come around to what you guys are talking about. I used to play a game called MajorMUD. It was a full loot PVP MUD, and when you "looked" at another player or a monster it would have tiers of health descriptions, with no numbers. It would say things like "Unwounded", "Barely Wounded", "Moderately Wounded", "Heavily Wounded", "Critically Wounded", etc.
You would still see your own health and mana numbers and you would see damage dealt each round. You could figure out how much health a monster had by just adding up damage over all the rounds. Eventually addons came out that had all the information and you could min/max the game. They had average round calculators, a synonym for "DPS meters" at the time, etc. So this just goes to show that DPS meters have been around longer than graphics have been around on the internet. MUDs were like the early text versions of MMOs.
On a side note, when Baldurs Gate 3 came out I asked my old group of buddies to start a campaign, go into the game blind (not watching youtube), roleplay our characters, and play turn based. That seemed like it would be fun. One of the guys completely ignored this and started linking youtube videos about the game right away. Then, because of one youtube video, someone had to pick the "face" of the party, and suddenly we were all sectioned off into different roles we were allowed to be. Another guy was a hardcore D&D player and wanted us all to preplan or min/max our characters from levels 1-12 (prior to character creation), and would critique every decision we made as being "not good", or not synergizing with the team. So it took forever to even make a character. Then they didn't want to play turn based because it would take too long. The whole thing turned into a total disaster because people would accidentally trigger events that the "face" was supposed to trigger and everyone quit after the first session and just said its probably better as a single player game.
Now I could blame the game for this disaster, which they did and maybe there is some truth to that. Or I could blame the group of people I played with for turning something that could have been a fun experience into something that was a total train wreck.
This anecdote means that I understand where you guys are coming from. Sometimes too much information in a game ends up creating needless conflict and time spent on things other than just playing the game and having fun. Still, though, there will inevitably be conflict and how the people you play with handle conflict resolution is also important.
This is just a classic case of a group of people going in to a piece of content with differing expectations.
If everyone went in wanting to either min/max or everyone going in blind, you wouldn't have had the issue.
Now, I'm not pointing finger specifically at any of the people involved in your story, but it was very much a people based issue rather than anything else. As your story here points out, it is an issue that is completely removed from the question of combat trackers - it will exist any time people attempt to go in to a piece of content with differing expectations.
This comes down to a point I made probably 180 pages ago or so - people like myself and Dygz shouldn't ever be trying to run content together. He wants to roleplay (as is his right), and I want to be as efficient as possible (as is my right).
You may note that even in this small example, combat trackers aren't involved. That is because combat trackers don't give players a mindset, players already have their mindset.
I like the idea of dps meters in theory, as I obviously want to play my class to the best of my ability and pull my weight. Even if I'm not a hardcore player, it's great to know which builds / rotations work best and just to kinda see how I'm doing.
However, I do not think a dps meter works in practice. I've played wow up to cata, I was in a pretty good guild in wotlk and even got a few world first kills. I totally understand why people would want to measure dps to improve. But trying to use one simple number to gauge if someone is pulling their weight just does not work and I don't think people understand why it's a bad measurement.
I re-played classic wow on the official blizzard servers and got into a pretty good guild again. However that guild was always trying to push the meters and have their raiders be on the server top damage for a boss. I thought this was cool and tried to support this. One way I did this, as a mage with not as good of gear as everyone else, was to make sure to de-curse everyone asap. One hilarious story from this is that on the shazzrah fight no one would de-curse because everyone wanted to be top on the meters and the melee were upset. They offered 50g to whoever had the most de-curses, and I made sure I got the 50g lol. Because the melee didn't have to worry about getting 1 shot, they could stay in and eat the aoe and do more dps. We actually ended up killing that boss faster than any other of the guild previous attempts. However I got reprimanded by the raid leader for having terrible dps. I tried to explain on that fight I was de-cursing the melee, but they didn't care: "Thats the healers job and we need more dps". He didn't care that we were already low on healers so we could fit more dps in the raid, he didn't care that we actually did more overall dps when I help the melee instead.
It's funny to think that this guild had many of the top dps spots for bosses on that server, but couldn't get past C'thun. This is what I mean by dps being a worthless measurement: It doesn't matter if you're the best guild on the server with top dps if you can't do the boss mechanics and actually beat the boss. Dps meters just encourage people to play the game like it's single player and just stand there and mash buttons so they can have the biggest numbers.
Doing top dps doesn't have anything to do with failing mechanics.
If anything, the existence of mechanics making it harder to actually perform doing DPS makes it more necessary to have the measurement tools.
After all, with 64 combinations of classes types and even further many more builds and gear layouts than that, it is not possible there will be "one build or one strategy fits all" solution.
Sure you can feel your way out to victory being just good enough, but as you said, the folks wanting to push top numbers have to look in to each encounter separately, using data from that encounter, to find the right balance of gear/skill/class to do those top numbers.
Its a per encounter thing, cant just max out on a combat dummy and expect to do the same in a fight.
Made me think of this thread.
This actually exists in modern games and is a part of optimization to clear the encounter. I can think of a half dozen in FF14 alone (since I'm currently playing that game for the moment).
Plenty of cases where if you DPS too hard you cause a wipe, or if you push the boss too low in HP before dealing with some other mechanic you are punished.
Its not about doing the max possible theoretical dps a build can do, its about doing the max possible you can do in the encounter and get the clear. And for that, we have data, so we can push the limits if we want to.
Then what’s the problem? I didn’t read all the posts, but if people are just complaining about guild leaders kicking you for low dps just get a new guild cause your leader is an ass, or “get good” cause it’s possible you just suck at the game.
That goes against the view of anti-meter people (including steven), because that reason for kicking is toxic, taints way too many people and should not be in the game, so the "solution" is to not allow meters
― Plato
Toxic people are going to be toxic, any excuse will do. If its not DPS meters its going to be something else.
There are people in this forum that are toxic. Is the solution to have no forums?
Indeed this type of solution is what Ashes wants, and what ffxiv does too. Maybe it is just about money, that it is cheaper to not have forums than to pay mods to keep toxicity out. Same it is perhaps cheaper to not allow meters than to have gms moderate toxicity that comes from bullying underperforming players
― Plato
I can understand that. I've played games where there are no ways to talk to the other team, and limited ways to talk to your own team due to toxic players. Not that I'm advocating this, but I've seen it and understand the logic.
However, Steven seems to be more than happy to put in elements that can be used by toxic people in Ashes, as a way of creating conflict and reasons to pvp each other. They also find ways to mitigate the damage that toxic people can do. The whole corruption systems and mayoral systems seem to be built on this. Maybe throughout this thread they can find ways to implement dps/decurse/ability logs in a way that provides players the information they are looking for while mitigating the damage that toxic players can do with it.
I mean, if a conflict over DPS meters is one more reason to backstab your guild and create "drama", isn't that what they are going for?
Toxic players gonna be toxic no matter what.
What will happen with a DPS meter regarding kicks, and I can tell you from my experience, which certainly wont match yours as its what has been my experience, but I can say.
Well, at the very least, if I were running a pickup group and not going with a guild team. If I notice someone underperforming to the point it is interfering with progression or getting a clear.... They will not get a kick. It is a flat out waste of me and all the other players at the raid if someone were to be kicked during raid time, because then I have to use valuable time when me and 23 other players are sitting around to fill the empty spot, when we could be raiding and learning boss mechanics.
We will finish out the night, and then I will just tell that person bluntly, that I will not be inviting that player back next week or next time. I will wish them well, and if they improve performance to around near average of what everyone else is doing, they can join then. I will then spend the time between raids to find a replacement.
There is no reason to be toxic to someone, or worse belittle someone in voice chat with other players listening. Best to stay on good terms with folks I will likely still want to play other parts of the game with.
Also the plus side of staying on good terms with as many folks as I can, is if they want to do something, and know that I are capable at xyz activity, they may ask me to come help them get that clear in their own group, or defend pvp or do whatever.
Conversely, If I am in another team run by someone else, I may be looking at data between pulls. But it is not my group, its not my place to make any comments publicly or privately about one person or another. I'm there to play and have a good time.
Now just take a moment, replace DPS meter with any other game activity or tool that is controversial in games, and you will see its the same discussion for that topic as it is with DPS meters. The common thing is people just need to be chill and play the game.
And a topic someone might want to start in a new thread, if they feel strongly about it. Is how should Intrepid try to regulate toxicity. What constitutes 'being mean' sort of thing.
People may be toxic for other reasons but it won't be from the meter mentality and that is the point. Saying people can be toxic for other reasons isn't really a valid argument. Point is toxic mentality around meter is removed or immensely decreased. Rather than allowing them to provide physical tangible metric for people to hold onto, and greatly amplify toxicity.
Your point on there should be no forums makes absolutely 0 sense you are using weak points to defend crappy meters. Forums should exist but you have rules, and mods to reduce toxic elements and keep people in check. That is the correct comparison, not something weak like saying no forums.
This is why i find it funny for people being for meters and trying to make arguments about dps meters / trackers not being toxic. Trying to act like they don't amplify it to high levels, trying to ignore how things currently are and why the mentality is against them, dislike or not wanting other people to see their stats. The mentality has echoed in this thread against it.
This is the truth.
People that think there is a combat tracker mentality simply don't know what they are talking about - and using those words is in itself proof that they have no idea (looking at you, Steven).
Fact is, there is an efficiency mentality, and combat trackers are a tool these people invariably use. The tool isn't the source of this mentality, it is a result of it.
For the most part, people with this efficiency mentality only want to run content in a game with others that have this mentality. When this happens, there are zero issues (this is why I have literally never once seen the issues others talk about).
The issues only ever come when people that don't want that efficiency attempt to run content with those that do want it. This usually only happens when either the game forms groups (LFG/LFR), or when the player not wanting that efficiency literally lies (or is in some way untruthful) in order to get in to the group running the content they want to run.
Then, after telling said lie, when it is found that they are not interested in that efficiency based gsmeplay, they accuse those that are of being toxic.
The core of the issue literally is people not wanting to be efficient trying to run content with people that do want to be. They are the ones arguing against it (Steven), even though they literally are the root cause of the toxicity that they experience.
If these people just stayed in their own damn lane, and left those of us wanting to play efficiently to ourselves, their issues would disappear over night.
― Plato
- Nyce Gaming
i'm ashamed to say that I wrote that myself lol