No addons what so ever, under any circumstances.

I was just logging off World of Warcraft's Season of Discovery, and i got reminded of the devastating effects of addons.

I still remember how the slippery slope started in Vanilla, with the usual excuses of just having better UI and accessibility.

Fast forward to the current day, and you see a game that has been turned into a conveyor belt single-player experience.

Quest addons that bypasses the reasons why the quests exist in the first place.

Addons that tell you information about the game you shouldn't have access to. Like enemy player hp,buffs and their durations.

Addons force the game devs to start designing raids and bosses around existing addons, making them garbage.

It is not an exaggeration that addons will destroy this game if they are allowed to be used.

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Comments

Dripyula

Scarctic wrote: »

.

Sexy good old Gothic signature btw. Ah thanks. I needed that.
" Mein Name ist... "

" Es interessiert mich nicht wie du heißt. "

Ahhh good old times.

To the topic;

I think damagemeters bring more toxicity to the table than help. Almost never did I saw it used in a productive context and only as a tool for d°ckmeassuring contests. Or to sh°t on people.
Happens since decades by now.
" Hey you are not making enough damage. " " I thought so to. Any tips? "
" ................... no! Make more damage, noob! " " That was very helpful. -_- "

Of course it is no one's job to tell someone else how to play their class.
But the hostile stances these damagemeters created sometimes were just abyssmal.
Even when players were ready to learn most of the time the negative remark was the "critics" goal all along.
And if that is all that most people have to say, then I will gladly celebrate the loss of their cheap tools.

Ruerik

Not sure what kind of stance you are trying to take her @Noanni. ACT works by some plugin feeding it the data it needs to operate, and then its base function is to nicely format those numbers. You want to use ACT for whatever game, you need a plugin for that game to send the data to ACT for you.

Those plugins look directly at the game executable file and its network data. You can do a 30 second google search on one of the plugins.

Try "ffxiv act network traffic" and see for yourself that the plugins can be formatted to operate using the network traffic.

Ever since that plugin started using direct network data, it has access to things that dont show up in the combat log, such as mechanic data. In the distant past, the only thing that could be seen was. "The boss readies SOMEATTACK" and act would look for that in the combat log. Now the plugin has access to all information, even mechanics that happen without sending info to the combat log.

These plugins are written in javascript, and can be customized into ANYTHING you want to happen. They can show just a strict timeline if things are always planned by the devs out to the second, and they can even do full combat assistance all the way down to drawing an overlay on your screen telling you where to go stand to complete the mechanic.

ACT became a cheater app. There is really no way to claim that its only because of the pluggins that are written specifically to be used in the ACT environment, and only work with ACT and nothing else is

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Those plugins look directly at the game executable file and its network data.

Again, if you are using ACT in a way that is reading network traffic, you are using it in a way I have never seen or heard of - despite having been using it for 17 years or so.

Again with a link for you - this time to the official list of plugins for ACT. While not complete (plugin developers are under no obligation to have their plugin linked here), you should perhaps consider it odd that there is still no talk at all of ACT reading network traffic.

The functionality you are talking about is specific to a plugin, and not an inherent part of ACT.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

lets say i make a bot that can afk farm, quest, etc. it also has a radar to detect nearby players, it also has auto heals and auto buffs so i dont have to worry about keeping my party buffed. it informs me who is targeting me an wen an aoe is coming so i can just move back, etc. loss of combat assist. but it also has a combat tracker. it reads the combat logs and presents them in a friendlier format for my eyes. should players be allowed to use this program as long as they keep the bot, combat assist and radar off and only use the combat tracking functionality?

If your app has that functionality built in to it, then even if it is not used, that app should be banned (as best as a developer can ban an app - which they can't, all they can do is suggest people not use it).

On the other hand, if your app has modules, and the non-cheating module can exist without the other modules, then that module should be allowed.

The reason for this is - again - simple. All one would need to do is write a plugin for Chrome that cheats, and unless a developer takes the above stance they would now need to ban the use of Chrome while playing the game. If the plugin exists that enables Chrome to be used for cheating, how is that any different to using ACT if a plugin existed for it that enables cheating?

If a plugin for Chrome that enables cheating exists and the developer continues to allow Chrome without that plugin to be used with the game, then you should apply the same logic to if a plugin for ACT exists and people use ACT without that plugin.

As to your edit - yes, there are ways they could do that, but not ways they could do that without basically everyone calling them out on it for breach of privacy. That publicity alone would tank the game (no joke).

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

lets say i make a bot that can afk farm, quest, etc. it also has a radar to detect nearby players, it also has auto heals and auto buffs so i dont have to worry about keeping my party buffed. it informs me who is targeting me an wen an aoe is coming so i can just move back, etc. loss of combat assist. but it also has a combat tracker. it reads the combat logs and presents them in a friendlier format for my eyes. should players be allowed to use this program as long as they keep the bot, combat assist and radar off and only use the combat tracking functionality?

The reason for this is - again - simple. All one would need to do is write a plugin for Chrome that cheats, and unless a developer takes the above stance they would now need to ban the use of Chrome while playing the game. If the plugin exists that enables Chrome to be used for cheating, how is that any different to using ACT if a plugin existed for it that enables cheating?

because chrome isnt an app designed to be connected to a game to give you an advantage, act and dps meters / combat trackers are.

Ruerik

Depraved wrote: »

because chrome isnt an app designed to be connected to a game to give you an advantage, act and dps meters / combat trackers are.

More than that, ACT is built to interact with other running programs on your computer, which can cause things like mcaffee or norton antivirus to flag it, requiring the user to specifically allow it access. Its interesting that you use a app for 17 years but havent investigated how its plugins work.

Chrome does not have that function. I could write a chrome plugin to parse and display information for me if I can give it the information, but not to read directly from a running program and its network traffic.

And in any case, Intrepid are GIVING us a combat log. We can get all the information from that we want to build our characters out. It's good enough for the use case we have that we can play all day, then take the combat log and investigate it later on. No reason to need real time combat tracking or combat assistance

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

lets say i make a bot that can afk farm, quest, etc. it also has a radar to detect nearby players, it also has auto heals and auto buffs so i dont have to worry about keeping my party buffed. it informs me who is targeting me an wen an aoe is coming so i can just move back, etc. loss of combat assist. but it also has a combat tracker. it reads the combat logs and presents them in a friendlier format for my eyes. should players be allowed to use this program as long as they keep the bot, combat assist and radar off and only use the combat tracking functionality?

The reason for this is - again - simple. All one would need to do is write a plugin for Chrome that cheats, and unless a developer takes the above stance they would now need to ban the use of Chrome while playing the game. If the plugin exists that enables Chrome to be used for cheating, how is that any different to using ACT if a plugin existed for it that enables cheating?

because chrome isnt an app designed to be connected to a game to give you an advantage, act and dps meters / combat trackers are.

So if I write a plugin for Chrome that is a combat tracker, you'd be fine with that?

Hint - these already exist.

Ruerik

I should point you at my first post in this thread. It doesnt matter what program you use, or how you do it.
No outside assistance shall be used to get an advantage of any sort is the stance Intrepid are taking

It doesnt matter what you are fine with. It doesnt matter what I am fine with. I want a DPS meter after all, but it will not happen with Intrepids approval.
Intrepid are more than clear on what they dont want, and will issue punishment they see fit for those trying to circumvent the issue.

Word it however which way you want to word it, just be sure you don't get caught when the game becomes playable.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

lets say i make a bot that can afk farm, quest, etc. it also has a radar to detect nearby players, it also has auto heals and auto buffs so i dont have to worry about keeping my party buffed. it informs me who is targeting me an wen an aoe is coming so i can just move back, etc. loss of combat assist. but it also has a combat tracker. it reads the combat logs and presents them in a friendlier format for my eyes. should players be allowed to use this program as long as they keep the bot, combat assist and radar off and only use the combat tracking functionality?

The reason for this is - again - simple. All one would need to do is write a plugin for Chrome that cheats, and unless a developer takes the above stance they would now need to ban the use of Chrome while playing the game. If the plugin exists that enables Chrome to be used for cheating, how is that any different to using ACT if a plugin existed for it that enables cheating?

because chrome isnt an app designed to be connected to a game to give you an advantage, act and dps meters / combat trackers are.

So if I write a plugin for Chrome that is a combat tracker, you'd be fine with that?

Hint - these already exist.

of course not, but like i said, there is a difference. we go back to the discussion of whether the devs can detect it or not, and whether the players use plugins or modules that add forbidden functionality. chrome

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

anyways im just curious about your reasoning here (and others). in the end i dont really care too much if people use them or not, and its up to intrepid to handle that, not me.

sure there will be players being toxic or whatever but im pretty much immune to those things xD

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

because chrome isnt an app designed to be connected to a game to give you an advantage, act and dps meters / combat trackers are.

More than that, ACT is built to interact with other running programs on your computer, which can cause things like mcaffee or norton antivirus to flag it, requiring the user to specifically allow it access. Its interesting that you use a app for 17 years but havent investigated how its plugins work.

Chrome does not have that function. I could write a chrome plugin to parse and display information for me if I can give it the information, but not to read directly from a running program and its network traffic.

And in any case, Intrepid are GIVING us a combat log. We can get all the information from that we want to build our characters out. It's good enough for the use case we have that we can play all day, then take the combat log and investigate it later on. No reason to need real time combat tracking or combat assistance

Again dude, you are talking about one plugin and the functionality of that plugin.

In the case of FFXIV (the game you are talking about), the plugin hooks in to FFlogs.com. It is the plugin reading the network traffic, not ACT.

To quote the Github page for the plugin you are talking about

The FFXIV_ACT_Plugin reads a combination of memory and network data from your local pc.

ACT isn't doing any of that, the plugin is.

Now, plugins for ACT are often either .dll or .exe files. This essentially means they are their own application - but specifically and literally means they are their own code. They each need to be treated as their own thing - and even if you need ACT to run them, each of them drastically alters the functionality of ACT.

This is literally the point of plugins existing in any situation.

Everything you are talking about here is not ACT, it is {FFXIV_ACT_Plugin} specific.

What you are doing would be the equivlent of someone talking at length about how Chrome has a built in to do list that you tihnk is great - when really it is Todoist that you have installed as a plugin for Chrome, and Chrome itself has no such built in functionality.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

So is Discord.

ACT exists to give people better access to information, and better access to information is an in game advantage.

Discord exists to better communicate with people, and better communication is an in game advantage.

Explain your reasoning for allowing Discord.

Raven016

I used to watch Sid Alpha years ago and I noticed this recent video while checking subscribed channels list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRBx-TptFw

The title seems related to this thread. I'll watch the video too later.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

So is Discord.

ACT exists to give people better access to information, and better access to information is an in game advantage.

Discord exists to better communicate with people, and better communication is an in game advantage.

Explain your reasoning for allowing Discord.

i did earlier. people used to play games in the same room but with multiplayer games over the internet, we cant really talk to people because they are in the same room. ventrilo, ts, mumble, discord, etc emulates that.

there is a difference between me telling my friend "im going in, heal me" than a program telling me "you didnt press this button enough, you need to press this button more" in real time.

if you build a tool that reads the combat logs after you close the game and shows them to you in a more user friendly way, then sure go for it. who is gonna know.

Ruerik

This feels like an attempt to set a "goalpost" that plugins are not allowed, but ACT itself is allowed.

Which is not at all what the discussion is.

Given the Intrepid statement that anyone attempting to circumvent things will be punished, proceed at your own risk.

Also, the plugin does not hook into fflogs. I use it heavily every raid tier as a way to study what I do against what other players do against what the boss is doing to figure out the optimal use of abilities to reach the fastest possible kill time. I like to speed run, its fun for me to try to get even just that 4second faster kill.

The plugin reads the data, and computes dps, tallying everything you could ever want into its own category too. it saves this computed data into a local .txt file on your computer. You use a separate program called FF logs uploader to load that .txt file to that website, where you can then compare ability use and buff timings or whatever it is you are optimizing.

More than all that even, SE stance on third party tools is more lax than what Intrepids is. SE stance is, do not use any third party tools. However if you are not harassing anyone, or no one reports you then they dont care what you do. Intrepids stance suggests they will be actively looking for people using third party apps and punishing them, so again, use at your own risk.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

So is Discord.

ACT exists to give people better access to information, and better access to information is an in game advantage.

Discord exists to better communicate with people, and better communication is an in game advantage.

Explain your reasoning for allowing Discord.

i did earlier. people used to play games in the same room but with multiplayer games over the internet, we cant really talk to people because they are in the same room. ventrilo, ts, mumble, discord, etc emulates that.

there is a difference between me telling my friend "im going in, heal me" than a program telling me "you didnt press this button enough, you need to press this button more" in real time.

if you build a tool that reads the combat logs after you close the game and shows them to you in a more user friendly way, then sure go for it. who is gonna know.

Since there were never really any computer games like an MMO that used to be played commonly with peolle in the same room, im going to assume you are talkong about tabletop games.

Discord is a more advanced tool for talking to your friend across the table.

ACT, on the other hand, is a more advanced tool for writing down the dice rolls of the encounter.

A combat tracker can not tell you that you didnt press a button enough times.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

This feels like an attempt to set a "goalpost" that plugins are not allowed, but ACT itself is allowed.

Keep in mind, I'm not the one saying ACT is a cheater app. I'm also not actually saying Intrepid should ban anything, as i am aware of the practical fact that they can't do anything more than ask people to not use things.

As such, I have no goalpost to move.

What I'm doing is telling you that ACT in itself is not a cheater app as you claim. ACT simply takes information and displays it. If you are cheating in the way in which you get that information to ACT, then that is where you should be pointing the finger.

For the most part though, in basically every game I've used ACT in other than Archeage, the information that ACT uses comes from the log.txt file that the game in question creates in real time.

Hell, one of the base functions of early ACT was to allow users to set a file size for the log file the game created and once it hit that size, rename it so the game would start a new log.txt file.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

So is Discord.

ACT exists to give people better access to information, and better access to information is an in game advantage.

Discord exists to better communicate with people, and better communication is an in game advantage.

Explain your reasoning for allowing Discord.

i did earlier. people used to play games in the same room but with multiplayer games over the internet, we cant really talk to people because they are in the same room. ventrilo, ts, mumble, discord, etc emulates that.

there is a difference between me telling my friend "im going in, heal me" than a program telling me "you didnt press this button enough, you need to press this button more" in real time.

if you build a tool that reads the combat logs after you close the game and shows them to you in a more user friendly way, then sure go for it. who is gonna know.

Since there were never really any computer games like an MMO that used to be played commonly with peolle in the same room, im going to assume you are talkong about tabletop games.

Discord is a more advanced tool for talking to your friend across the table.

ACT, on the other hand, is a more advanced tool for writing down the dice rolls of the encounter.

A combat tracker can not tell you that you didnt press a button enough times.

well, basketball, soccer, etc, any sport.
then you have games like hide and seek, tag, etc
video games? you have 2 player arcade games, pong and sf come to mind.
then you have nintendo games
you also had lan parties.

anyways what are all the things that act can do without plugins, just the base app? maybe us who dont use it think that it has capabilities, such as dps meter and combat assist, that it doesnt?

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

wasnt made for giving an in game advantage, act is

So is Discord.

ACT exists to give people better access to information, and better access to information is an in game advantage.

Discord exists to better communicate with people, and better communication is an in game advantage.

Explain your reasoning for allowing Discord.

i did earlier. people used to play games in the same room but with multiplayer games over the internet, we cant really talk to people because they are in the same room. ventrilo, ts, mumble, discord, etc emulates that.

there is a difference between me telling my friend "im going in, heal me" than a program telling me "you didnt press this button enough, you need to press this button more" in real time.

if you build a tool that reads the combat logs after you close the game and shows them to you in a more user friendly way, then sure go for it. who is gonna know.

Since there were never really any computer games like an MMO that used to be played commonly with peolle in the same room, im going to assume you are talkong about tabletop games.

Discord is a more advanced tool for talking to your friend across the table.

ACT, on the other hand, is a more advanced tool for writing down the dice rolls of the encounter.

A combat tracker can not tell you that you didnt press a button enough times.

well, basketball, soccer, etc, any sport.
then you have games like hide and seek, tag, etc
video games? you have 2 player arcade games, pong and sf come to mind.
then you have nintendo games
you also had lan parties.

I'm not sure what the point of any of this is.

You said that Discord is the modern equivlent of being able to talk to the people you are playing with, and I said ACT is the equivlent of being recording dice rolls in a table top game.

My first issue here is the number of things you have listed where analytics have literally always been a part of it - all sport fits in to this. Then there are the things in which talking to the person you are playing with isn't an advantage - hide and seek, pong etc.

I'm really just not sure what it is you are saying here.

anyways what are all the things that act can do without plugins, just the base app? maybe us who dont use it think that it has capabilities, such as dps meter and combat assist, that it doesnt?

Without a plugin, ACT can literally do nothing at all.

I'm going to give you a some what fake example of game log files in order to illustrate my point;

(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] YOUR Solar Flare hits a Tae Ew hunter for a critical of 18,150 heat damage.
(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] \aNPC 59815 a Tae Ew hunter:a Tae Ew hunter\/a says in Thulian, "Fall back! They are stronger than we thought!"
(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] You have killed a Tae Ew hunter.
(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] Your faction standing with The Tae Ew Lizardmen could not possibly get any worse.
(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] \aNPC 59849 a Tae Ew gatherer:a Tae Ew gatherer\/a says in Thulian, "Soft skin, you are mine!"
(1697330593)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:13 2023] \aNPC 59871 a Tae Ew hunter:a Tae Ew hunter\/a says in Thulian, "Soft skin, you are mine!"
(1697330594)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:14 2023] a Tae Ew hunter tries to pierce YOU, but misses.
(1697330595)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:15 2023] a Tae Ew gatherer tries to disease YOU with Atrophy, but YOU resist.
(1697330595)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:15 2023] a Tae Ew gatherer hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.
(1697330597)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:17 2023] YOUR Solar Flare hits a Tae Ew gatherer for a critical of 20,014 heat damage.
(1697330597)[Sun Oct 15 00:43:17 2023] You have killed a Tae Ew gatherer.

All ACT can see if you point it at that text is, well, that text. What a plugin does is tells ACT which lines of that text you want it to pull data from, and specifically what data you want.

In the case of this specific example, the data a combat tracker would pull is that I cast Solar Flare on a Tae Ew hunter for 18,150 heat damage, then it died (first three lines of text). Then a second later another Tae Ew hunter attacks me with a piercing attack and misses, followed another second later by a Tae Ew gatherer attempting to cast Atrophy on me but I resist, then in the same second trying to hit me but misses, then two seconds later I cast Solar Flare on a Tae Ew gatherer and deal 20,014 damage and kill it.

So basically, a plugin takes the log in the spoiler element above and translates it to the basic information the player wants to see. Without that plugin, ACT doesn't know how to read the log in question.

This is why ACT can be used for tracking market activity in the game - if the games log file contains this activity, all you need to do is have a plugin that tells ACT that you want it to get that data rather than combat data.

In the above example, the log file is created by the game itself, and dumped in the games installation folder. This is what a combat log actually is - so any game with a combat log should have thing, or have the option for it.

This is why the notion that ACT is reading network traffic is so absurd - ACT is literally just reading the information the game is giving it to read, and the only reason plugins are needed is because games don't format that information in the same way.

It is worth noting that because plugins for ACT are a thing, and because plugins can do basically what ever they are coded to do, there are some plugins for ACT that do add other functionality. Some of this I consider to be fine, some of it I wouldn't use - but since my hope is still for a built in combat tracker with Ashes preventing the need for an ACT plugin to even exist, I don't have a particular desire to talk about that.

Ruerik

Noaani wrote: »

Without a plugin, ACT can literally do nothing at all.

And there it is, you can say I am taking something out of context, but this right is is what makes ACT so dangerous.

If the game provides a .txt file, then whoever writes the plugin is going to use that .txt file as you say.
If it does not, nothing stops the writer from looking directly at the game executable data as well as network traffic.

Nothing stops the plugin writer at all from writing a simple javascript code to do whatever (most pluggins are written in javascript), all the way to combat assistance and drawing cheaty overlays on the screen telling you where to stand.

ACT itself enables that functionality because of the plugins, as you say, without a plugin ACT does nothing at all. If ACT specifically forbid the plugins from using anything other than a .txt file I could see the case for it not being a cheater app being made, however this is not the case.

And as many others have said these things are going to happen eventually. And truly probably a lot faster than we expect also. I'm just an amateur coder, I write what I need to do my own calculations in an afternoon, so already the bar is pretty low these days to making a parser. GPT AI can do a faster and better job of what I can, just feeding the little example log that you showed to GPT you can get it to write a javascript code to parse and format for you, give it enough sample data and it can work with network traffic too.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Without a plugin, ACT can literally do nothing at all.

And there it is, you can say I am taking something out of context, but this right is is what makes ACT so dangerous.

What makes it dangerous?

The fact that with the right plugin, it can do things?

Again though, this applies to literally every application that has plugins, because that is what plugins do - they expand the scope of the original application.

I'm not sure which part of this it is that you aren't getting. If ACT as you are using it is reading network traffic, that is because of the plugin. If you consider this to be cheating, then the culprit is the plugin that is reading the network traffic.

Now, you can start arguing all you like about whether or not this is something that may or may not happen in Ashes - that isn't a part of this discussion.

This discussion between you and I is about you stating that ACT is a "cheater app", and me pointing out that it is the plugins that you are using that give it the functionality you are talking about, and those plugins need not exist for any given game if the developer really wants to not have them.

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