rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player. how do I know whats best? by playing the game, knowing how stats work, pvping a lot, talking to experienced players, etc So you do not know? You just make an assumption based on your and experienced players (who may or may not be using combat logs). PvP is a hard thing to talk about when it comes to combat logs, because not only do pvp depend on your human actions and human error but also your opponents human actions and human error (which can be seen be the comabt log). I agree that, by just playing the game you can learn alot and you can then apply that to pvp/pve incounters. What combat logs really do in this situation is help you confirm your well educated guess, and in some situiations you will learn something new from it, big or small. Again, im mostly talking from a PvE perspective since I have done very little pvp in comparison to pve. I mean in most situations going with what your "gut feeling" tells you from hours and hours of playing the game will get you by 90% of the time (if not more).
Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player. how do I know whats best? by playing the game, knowing how stats work, pvping a lot, talking to experienced players, etc
rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player.
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way.
Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it...
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker.
Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed.
Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.
Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o
Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.
Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper.
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp).
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right?
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will.
Mag7spy wrote: » So you can just see what is giving you the highest dmg output and saving your mana. Trackers make games easier and allow people to find out things much faster. Tracks are garbage and just lead to more speed running of content and a handicap people rely on.
Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player. how do I know whats best? by playing the game, knowing how stats work, pvping a lot, talking to experienced players, etc So you do not know? You just make an assumption based on your and experienced players (who may or may not be using combat logs). PvP is a hard thing to talk about when it comes to combat logs, because not only do pvp depend on your human actions and human error but also your opponents human actions and human error (which can be seen be the comabt log). I agree that, by just playing the game you can learn alot and you can then apply that to pvp/pve incounters. What combat logs really do in this situation is help you confirm your well educated guess, and in some situiations you will learn something new from it, big or small. Again, im mostly talking from a PvE perspective since I have done very little pvp in comparison to pve. I mean in most situations going with what your "gut feeling" tells you from hours and hours of playing the game will get you by 90% of the time (if not more). I do math too. but you guys still don't get it. not all the info that you need is found in the combat logs.
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » remember that we are using the combat tracker to determine which stat to increase. In a vain attempt to get this back closer to topic... In a game with even 64 variations, not even classes, you'd have to have so many different 'technical goals' for any potential characterization, that this would nearly never be your goal even if you were basically pure DPS. That's also not necessarily how you would use the information. So, 64 classes is specifically a good idea if a designer wants the simplistic use/perspective on Combat Trackers to be a bad idea. 64 classes is a good idea if you want people to just 'not bother with randos claiming stuff about builds because they downloaded a tracker and saw that they had better numbers after hitting a thing for a minute'. (I want to stick close to your own example but it's the type I tend to pick apart and that's not the purpose of this thread). A Mage whose role in their party is to be the killshot finisher will increase Magic Attack. A Mage whose role in their party is Mana management is more likely to increase Casting Speed. It is good for us to have different sensible ways to play Mage. Perhaps even by changing Secondary Archetype and building a 'class' that does it that way. Yeah I do think that the 64 class model will, hopefully, give us variations in playstyle within the same archetype and have different bis items/stats of each class Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. Don't want to disappoint. Every game without hard caps that I have ever played has had both non-standard and non-linear diminishing returns - most of the time without the developer even realizing it. There is literally no possible way to accurately map those diminishing returns without a combat tracker - at least not if we want to talk on the scale of a human lifespan. rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. It's the Pareto Distribution, right? you wish ;3 rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Xeeg wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved. what?xD so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens. Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character. those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD also, no hard caps, already confirmed. No hard caps means soft caps will exist. This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker. actually, in this case the combat tracker will make you shoot yourself in the foot, most likely im pretty sure you gonna reply to this with some explanation of why not, so ill wait and then explain you why. The discussion around combat trackers are meaningless, and is very much of topic (though I do like to discuss it). There will be combat trackers and that's that. You don't need to use it, but some people will. i agree with you, but in some cases the combat tracker will tell you that a specific build in terms of numbers is performing better than the others, but because there are things that the combat tracker cant account for, using that "optimal" build will actually the a bad, if not the worst choice when it comes to actually playing the game (this will mostly be because of pvp). There is nothing the combat tracker do not account for. It logs everything that happens in combat. And "the most optimal" build or rotation usually do not come from the use of combat tracker but from the use of combat simulators. I can not talk to much about pvp since I'm not a big pvper. without making this a long post, that is exactly the problem. again l2 as an example since its the closest we have to aoc. if you used a combat tracker in l2, it would tell you that increasing your magic attack as a mage as opposed to casting speed (because you cant always increase both) increases your dps, you need less hits to kill the same mob, you save on soulshots, you save mana, etc, so you'd think about increasing your magic attack instead, when in reality that's the worse option. if youremoved pvp, or attack cancels, the ensure that would be the best option (and assuming the mobs arent hitting you because you have a tank or whatever). so basically in terms of numbers and data, the combat tracker will tell you that magic attack is the best choice, but in practice, increasing casting speed rather than magic attack is the best choice, otherwise, you wouldn't even get your attacks off in the first place. there was also something similar with daggers. increasing your attack would give you a small gain in your skills damage and it would make your auto attack do more damage. so yeah for pve that's ok. but for PVP, you want that attack speed. the extra damage from stabs don't matter and your autos also don't matter. you want to get your skills off before the enemy can turn on you. same happens with crit damage vs haste SA on weapons. i suspect something similar will happen in aoc. and on a side note, players from wow will surely increase mana and mana regen, especially if they are healers xDD rather than casting speed. which will also most likely be a mistake. id say if aoc is similar in this regard (and so far aoc stat system is the same as l2, but I believe formulas will be different, duh!) I wouldn't be surprised if people who use the optimal build from the combat tracker will end up losing more in PVP. sometimes that extra casting speed after diminishing returns is better than more mana/mdef or min maxing your magic attack. You seem to have a very one dimensional view of people. If someone without a combat tracker knows that dagger auto attacks dont matter, someone with a combat tracker will also know that. This is because people using a combat tracker also have access to every source of information that you have, but also have a combat tracker on top of that. Combat trackers only add information, they dont remove or replace information. The fact that you keep referring to an "optimal build from a tracker" again tells me you don't know how to use a tracker properly. In fact, everything you say about trackers tells me you dont know how to use them properly - as every time you talk about them you talk of what could happen if said tracker is misused. As to your comment on WoW players - I don't see why any of them would gear or spec out a healer in Ashes as they would in WoW. That doesn't happen in any other game, at least not that I have ever seen. People gear their characters for the situations they expect to face with that character in that game, minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Since there is no real expectation of protracted fights in Ashes, there likely isn't going to be as much of a need for mana regen. It would only be if people start running iutof mana that they start looking for ways to prevent that happening - people arent just going to assume that is what they need to do. the auto attacks matter just not that much for PVP. my example was that the combat tracker could tell you (or help you reach the conclusion) that increasing X stat over Y its the right choice because of the extra damage, diminishing returns, etc. but it could be that in practice, its the wrong choice, mostly because of PVP, but people who follow combat trackers to build their character will not realize this (remember you suggested using a combat tracker to build your character and min max your stats, not me, I'm just talking about using I like that). saying that people who use combat trackers have access to the info people who don't use it is pointless. not everybody read guides, experiments In pvp, etc, etc. i still see to this day people increasing the wrong stats and buffing themselves wrong in L2 and the game has been out for 20 years... if you already know what stat to increase without the combat tracker, then using the combat tracker to figure out which stat to increase is pointless, don't you think? you are the one who didn't consider this when you suggested using it... How do you know what is best? Combat trackers in pvp can be good to see what happened and what spell/debuff your opponent used and timings. But since pvp is so dynamic and extremely situational, it can be very difficult to determine what is "best". From what I know, combat trackers are mostly used for PvE Content, but I'm also mostly a PvE player. how do I know whats best? by playing the game, knowing how stats work, pvping a lot, talking to experienced players, etc So you do not know? You just make an assumption based on your and experienced players (who may or may not be using combat logs). PvP is a hard thing to talk about when it comes to combat logs, because not only do pvp depend on your human actions and human error but also your opponents human actions and human error (which can be seen be the comabt log). I agree that, by just playing the game you can learn alot and you can then apply that to pvp/pve incounters. What combat logs really do in this situation is help you confirm your well educated guess, and in some situiations you will learn something new from it, big or small. Again, im mostly talking from a PvE perspective since I have done very little pvp in comparison to pve. I mean in most situations going with what your "gut feeling" tells you from hours and hours of playing the game will get you by 90% of the time (if not more). I do math too. but you guys still don't get it. not all the info that you need is found in the combat logs. And where do you get those numbers from so you can do the math? What Information can't I see in the Combat logs?
Depraved wrote: » I do math too. but you guys still don't get it. not all the info that you need is found in the combat logs.
Depraved wrote: » that's not what I was talking about and I'm not saying what you are wrong here. however, to answer to this point, you could still fall victim of the tracker. the tracker could lead you to reach the conclusion that auto-attacking is a waste of soulshots in PVP. it could tell you that auto attacking in pve is worth it because of the damage you do, the mana you save over time, etc. then you wouldn't consider auto attacks in PVP, but then you arent considering other things such as interrupting the enemy skill, something that you wont see on the logs, for example, and even if you do, you might still not think its worth using them because of the little damage, when in reality its worth using them. this doesn't have to be autos, this could be anything.
the best people are a small %. most people might just follow the tracker or some guide who they think its good (that probably was made using a tracker).
you are the one who suggested this a few posts ago.
Depraved wrote: » seems that you gonna be one of those people who gonna fall victim of the combat tracker data. you gonna use gear that increases magic attack because the tracker told you so, when you should be wearing gear that increases casting speed.
Song_Warden wrote: » It is 8 classes with 8 flavours each. I still think its a convoluted approach. There are so many games that could have influenced the class system, instead we get a half baked class system that's not DnD, not AA and not L2. It's a kind of halfway house and a half assed attempt at variety. We can't actually build how we want and we can't actually break from the base archetypes either.
Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » It is 8 classes with 8 flavours each. I still think its a convoluted approach. There are so many games that could have influenced the class system, instead we get a half baked class system that's not DnD, not AA and not L2. It's a kind of halfway house and a half assed attempt at variety. We can't actually build how we want and we can't actually break from the base archetypes either. This feels like a pretty bad take.
Song_Warden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » It is 8 classes with 8 flavours each. I still think its a convoluted approach. There are so many games that could have influenced the class system, instead we get a half baked class system that's not DnD, not AA and not L2. It's a kind of halfway house and a half assed attempt at variety. We can't actually build how we want and we can't actually break from the base archetypes either. This feels like a pretty bad take. It can feel any which way you want. The fact remains we are still on base archetypes with few if any augments shown. A2 is in Q3 which means augments must exist. As a fundamental aspect of the class dynamics the augments should be shown in full operation prior to A2 alongside the rest of the classes. 8 years is a long time to have shown so little. Each time a class is shown its always half baked and basic principles.
Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » It is 8 classes with 8 flavours each. I still think its a convoluted approach. There are so many games that could have influenced the class system, instead we get a half baked class system that's not DnD, not AA and not L2. It's a kind of halfway house and a half assed attempt at variety. We can't actually build how we want and we can't actually break from the base archetypes either. This feels like a pretty bad take. It can feel any which way you want. The fact remains we are still on base archetypes with few if any augments shown. A2 is in Q3 which means augments must exist. As a fundamental aspect of the class dynamics the augments should be shown in full operation prior to A2 alongside the rest of the classes. 8 years is a long time to have shown so little. Each time a class is shown its always half baked and basic principles. IT isnt 8 years of 300 devs working on the game. That is include preproduction elements, building tech, vertical slice, etc. ITs a indie studio so they have less resources and have to build a team, etc. Its a lot more work than being already established Ie ubisoft, epic games, bioware, etc.
Song_Warden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Song_Warden wrote: » It is 8 classes with 8 flavours each. I still think its a convoluted approach. There are so many games that could have influenced the class system, instead we get a half baked class system that's not DnD, not AA and not L2. It's a kind of halfway house and a half assed attempt at variety. We can't actually build how we want and we can't actually break from the base archetypes either. This feels like a pretty bad take. It can feel any which way you want. The fact remains we are still on base archetypes with few if any augments shown. A2 is in Q3 which means augments must exist. As a fundamental aspect of the class dynamics the augments should be shown in full operation prior to A2 alongside the rest of the classes. 8 years is a long time to have shown so little. Each time a class is shown its always half baked and basic principles. IT isnt 8 years of 300 devs working on the game. That is include preproduction elements, building tech, vertical slice, etc. ITs a indie studio so they have less resources and have to build a team, etc. Its a lot more work than being already established Ie ubisoft, epic games, bioware, etc. Yes. I understand the principles of indie development. You skipped over my point entirely - unless the devs are about to encode several thousand augments in 9 months some augments must exist. We don't even have knowledge of all the augment trees for each class yet let alone the standalone trees for augments. Thus, to my mind, a massive chunk of combat is MIA.
Noaani wrote: » This means that by the time you get to the point where you need to make a decision, you already know what the right choice is because you have a deeper understanding of the systems at play. Thus you don't need to use a combat tracker at that point in time to get the answer - you have already learned the answer by gaining a basic understanding of the combat system.
Xeeg wrote: » When we play a game we can only guess at the underlying mechanics, ie: "How the game actually works". The only way to find out for sure is through testing. All the combat tracker is doing is visually displaying our tests. Every fight you do is a test of the game systems. Once we understand how the game works, we can design builds and arrange tradeoffs. Without this knowledge it is all guesswork and likely wrong. I've been advocating for target dummies and trackers on multiple threads but just get brushed off... Shrug. Don't know how many hours ive spent in games on dummies with trackers tweaking builds and seeing dmg profile responses. Then trading off some dmg here and there for some versatility in order to make a good 2v2 build, or battleground build, or open world build, or raid build.
Mag7spy wrote: » Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time. New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.
