Supporting PvE Raiders in Ashes

For starters, this isn't the main focus of AoC. This is a PvX game and I want the open world to stay relevant, becoming the main character. What I'm suggesting below is only something sprinkled in. Only a portion of the 20% instanced content. It will take development time, but is not the core of the game like some others.

I've seen quotes that suggest this may be on their mind. I've also seen some more recent counterarguments. This is just something I want to express that I'd like to see in the game. If this is old news, great. If not, please consider it.

Background:

I main ESO right now. The end-game raids in these games are a ton of fun to me. The harder difficulties, then achievement hunting, it feels very rewarding to complete them. 12 of my friends work together for months to optimize our group and perfect the mechanics. I hear WoW raids are legendary. Many others like Final Fantasy, etc.

The common thing here is an instanced PvE arena. For the instancing part, Steven has said himself that this instancing allows for more advanced mechanics. I believe that as well. The PvE part is more complicated though. I would like to see ideas to mix in PvP. I can think of some interesting ones but nothing concrete atm. The main concern I want to eliminate is mechanics being "dumbed down" because of the threat of PvP. I know in the raids we do, one goofball could run in the middle of everything and kill everyone. That's the nature of having those advanced mechanics.

Content Suggestion:

- Put the final boss at the end of an open-world dungeon in an instanced arena.
- Look at making 3+ of these boss arenas for release.
- Have the number available to the server based on node setup.
- Fight lengths will be long (10-15+ mins), have multiple stages/waves and possibly separate rooms to change up the arena.
- Content needs to take time to learn and complete. Nothing you can walk into and master in a couple of days.
- Look to current games that are focused on PvE Raiding.
- Only allow one party in the instance at a time. It's not required from a PvP aspect, see paragraph above, I do think it could help eliminate people zerging your fine-tuned mechanics.
- Consider allowing only one instance at a time. This has a lot of implications. Especially around watching the door for PvE and PvP. Just something to consider.
- Consider reduced death penalties in this "event". I'm not positive about this, but I tend to think tough content will require wiping and plenty of it.
- Include achievements like speed, no-death and other fun unique ones.

Reward Suggestion:

- Do not drop exclusive materials, but valuable ones.
- Small chance to drop a unique gear recipe (that can be sold).
- Small chance to drop a low-quality version of that gear.
- Very small chance to drop skins/cosmetic items.
- Miniscule chance to drop a flying mount.
- Performance metrics drive drop rates.
- Completing achievements awards small cosmetics or titles.

It is important to remember that your group will have to fight through an open-world dungeon to get there and to bring the loot home.

Thank you for reading.

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Comments

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

The way to get mana back in FFXI is to '/heal', literally, there's a command to enter a resting stance that gives you mana every X period of time (it's long to start up because it's a PvE-mostly game). But the only requirements for you to /heal are that you are not currently taking damage and that your weapon is sheathed.

Ashes will have a version of this via sitting.

This is why I assume there will be a means of having fairly decent out of combat mana regen.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

That is (no offense) a result of your game history more than anything else.

I should've made my point clearer.

On the scale of "not a respec at all" to "a complete respec", full change of gear is at the "I would consider this the most basic lvl of a respec" point for me.

My main class in L2 could be a CCs support, a mage, a rogue, a purely buff remover (majority of players were this) a combo of any of the above. All of that on top of changing your elemental attack attributes, skill enhancement paths and gear choices.

My initial point was this. Ashes won't let us change augments/skill lvls/class/node benefits/religion on the fly. But it will let us change gear. And as I just said, to me, changing gear barely counts as a respec.

So when you said "pve and pvp should have their own specs", to me this reads as "you gotta substantially change your character for either of those modes". And considering that we can't do that shit on the fly, this would not be pvx, because you'd have to have a complete reset of the entire encounter if you wanted to switch from pve to pvp, while to me a pvx encounter is the same character doing both (with a potential gear change on the fly).

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

So when you said "pve and pvp should have their own specs", to me this reads as "you gotta substantially change your character for either of those modes".

That is indeed what I mean.

My initial point was this. Ashes won't let us change augments/skill lvls/class/node benefits/religion on the fly. But it will let us change gear. And as I just said, to me, changing gear barely counts as a respec.

The current barrier to entry for respecing 3 of those 5 is simply being in the right location.

To me, this counts as basically no barrier.

While it means you can't just go out looking for something to do and repspec to suit that content, it does mean you should be able to run a spec appropriate for the content you intend to do before you head out.

Edit to add; I do have a full expectation that by the time the game goes live, we will have two specs we can "carry" with us at any time, to swap in and out of.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

While it means you can't just go out looking for something to do and repspec to suit that content, it does mean you should be able to run a spec appropriate for the content you intend to do before you head out.

And this is the difference between our povs. The content I want is pve+pvp. But if I need different specs for that - I can't have that content at the same time, while being optimally built for both. And running to "the right location" and back would mean, potentially, 5++ minutes of time. And at that point I would not have only lost my farming spot, but also 5++ minutes of my preferred gameplay.

If we get smth like a full skill lvls respec on the go, then, yeah, I'd consider the game to be closer to a pvx one rather than a "pve and pvp" one. Though at that point the respec better be cheap (if not free) and with loadouts, cause I ain't learning clicking patterns for 20+ abilities while my PL yells at me to go defend the healer

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

And this is the difference between our povs. The content I want is pve+pvp. But if I need different specs for that - I can't have that content at the same time, while being optimally built for both.

The only point you are making here is that you can't be optimised for both at the same time - there is absolutely nothing at all to say you can't have both at the same time.

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

As such, you are always going to be optimised for one over the other - or unoptimized for both equally.

Thing is, I don't see how this is a bad thing.

Perhaps you and your guild who are better PvP than me and my guild head off to a PvE encounter in a more PvE oriented spec. Me and my guild show up to that same fight in more of a PvP spec, knowing we are good enough at PvE in order to take the mob on with a sub-optimal spec.

If you and your guild came in a PvP spec you would beat me and my guild at the PvP aspect, but would probably lose the PvE aspect. If me and my guild came in a PvE spec we would absolutely be able to kill the mob first pull - but only if we managed to win that PvP and get a pull.

However, you and your guild in PvE spec, me and my guild in PvP spec, all of a sudden things are FAR more interesting.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

Like I've been saying for a long time now, I want pvxers. People who excel at both pve and pvp at the same time. And if they're doing it at the same time, I'd prefer if they had gear that can do the same. Which is why I'd prefer if pve design had player-like attributes in it, so that both players and gear would be able to pvx.

PvE would still be mechanically more difficult, cause scale/pace/power of the mobs/bosses can be boosted over any given pvp encounter, but the underlying design would be player-like. And it's not as if I'm asking for something unheard of, considering that FF11 pretty much had this already. I'm just asking for the difficult task of applying the same design principle for a game like Ashes.

Depraved

you can still wear the same gear for PVP and pve and make it useful for both. at the end of the day, what matters is the stats that you get.
you can also add different ways to make your character focused a lil bit more on pvp or pve without changing your gear (gear Is not the only thing that gives you power). and you can still make hard pve where you need specific gear to beat it and still use that specific gear as the top pvp gear.

Stalwart

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

They have been pretty clear over what they intend to deliver. You can advocate and say "I want this. They should do this!" all you like. Won't change what you are going to get. And as mentioned in the quotes below, they are ok if you take your toys and go home.

Not sure what you mean by this. What I'm describing is in line with what they have stated. I'm just detailing how the system could work. It's not like this was an ultimatum post outside their scope.

Also if the game is set in stone what is the point of the open development and asking for feedback?

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

Like I've been saying for a long time now, I want pvxers. People who excel at both pve and pvp at the same time. And if they're doing it at the same time, I'd prefer if they had gear that can do the same.

No one is saying that can't be a thing, just that it wouldnt be the most optimal.

Consider just sieges.

If you are defending, you probably want to focus on wasting the attackers time. High defense and CC could well be what you are after.

If you are attacking though, you probably want high damage and high mobility.

I would consider the game broken if you could max out all four of the above in one build.

Now, you could always just run a middle of the road build, and that may well be fine. It just won't be optimal.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

Like I've been saying for a long time now, I want pvxers. People who excel at both pve and pvp at the same time. And if they're doing it at the same time, I'd prefer if they had gear that can do the same.

No one is saying that can't be a thing, just that it wouldnt be the most optimal.

Consider just sieges.

If you are defending, you probably want to focus on wasting the attackers time. High defense and CC could well be what you are after.

If you are attacking though, you probably want high damage and high mobility.

I would consider the game broken if you could max out all four of the above in one build.

Now, you could always just run a middle of the road build, and that may well be fine. It just won't be optimal.

or you know, since its a party based game, you can have characters that focus on cc, another person in your party focuses on dealing damage, etc. this isn't a game where everybody can do everything, or respec to do everything. its not archeage where you can reset all ur skill trees and swap them...

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

Like I've been saying for a long time now, I want pvxers. People who excel at both pve and pvp at the same time. And if they're doing it at the same time, I'd prefer if they had gear that can do the same.

No one is saying that can't be a thing, just that it wouldnt be the most optimal.

Consider just sieges.

If you are defending, you probably want to focus on wasting the attackers time. High defense and CC could well be what you are after.

If you are attacking though, you probably want high damage and high mobility.

I would consider the game broken if you could max out all four of the above in one build.

Now, you could always just run a middle of the road build, and that may well be fine. It just won't be optimal.

or you know, since its a party based game, you can have characters that focus on cc, another person in your party focuses on dealing damage, etc. this isn't a game where everybody can do everything, or respec to do everything. its not archeage where you can reset all ur skill trees and swap them...

I'm going to be super blunt (even for me);

This is why PvP players are shit at PvE.

It should quite literally go without saying that different people will have different roles, and that jot everyone will be able to do every thing.

Like, literally goes without saying, yet I find myself having to say it.

Imagine for a moment, a single group - one character of each class.

The tank is built for tanking, the fighter, mage, ranger, rogue and summoner are all built for DPS, the cleric is built for healing and the bard is built for CC.

Great, stuff is covered nicely.

Now imagine we are going in to a fight that doesn't need CC. The Bard would be foolish to keep that spec. They should instead go for a build that buffs DPS, or mana regen, or survivability - which ever makes the most sense for the fight.

Now imagine we are going in to a fight that doesn't need max DPS, but has a shitload of AoE's - it makes sense that all the DPS spec for more survivability, at the expense of some unneeded DPS.

If we have a fight that requires more mobility, then everyone would be expected to spec in a way where they have that, even if this means being less good at their specific role.

This is basic stuff. So basic that I have to assume you already know it. This leads me to really have no idea where your above post is coming from at all.

Edit; maybe it's best if all PvP in Ashes is all mindnumbingly similar. If the above really is what PvP players think, they literally wouldn't be able to handle what I've been talking about.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Fact is, there is always going to be a difference between what you would want from a PvP spec and a PvE spec. This isn't something that I even consider up for debate.

Like I've been saying for a long time now, I want pvxers. People who excel at both pve and pvp at the same time. And if they're doing it at the same time, I'd prefer if they had gear that can do the same.

No one is saying that can't be a thing, just that it wouldnt be the most optimal.

Consider just sieges.

If you are defending, you probably want to focus on wasting the attackers time. High defense and CC could well be what you are after.

If you are attacking though, you probably want high damage and high mobility.

I would consider the game broken if you could max out all four of the above in one build.

Now, you could always just run a middle of the road build, and that may well be fine. It just won't be optimal.

or you know, since its a party based game, you can have characters that focus on cc, another person in your party focuses on dealing damage, etc. this isn't a game where everybody can do everything, or respec to do everything. its not archeage where you can reset all ur skill trees and swap them...

I'm going to be super blunt (even for me);

This is why PvP players are shit at PvE.

It should quite literally go without saying that different people will have different roles, and that jot everyone will be able to do every thing.

Like, literally goes without saying, yet I find myself having to say it.

oh you fooled me for a second when you said this

would consider the game broken if you could max out all four of the above in one build.

Now, you could always just run a middle of the road build, and that may well be fine. It just won't be optimal.

it implies that one character has the option to build all that (maybe not at the same time) and that's what I said what I said about not every character being able to build everything.

Imagine for a moment, a single group - one character of each class.

The tank is built for tanking, the fighter, mage, ranger, rogue and summoner are all built for DPS, the cleric is built for healing and the bard is built for CC.

Great, stuff is covered nicely.

Now imagine we are going in to a fight that doesn't need CC. The Bard would be foolish to keep that spec. They should instead go for a build that buffs DPS, or mana regen, or survivability - which ever makes the most sense for the fight.

Now imagine we are going in to a fight that doesn't need max DPS, but has a shitload of AoE's - it makes sense that all the DPS spec for more survivability, at the expense of some unneeded DPS.

If we have a fight that requires more mobility, then everyone would be expected to spec in a way where they have that, even if this means being less good at their specific role.

This is basic stuff. So basic that I have to assume you already know it. This leads me to really have no idea where your above post is coming from at all.

Edit; maybe it's best if all PvP in Ashes is all mindnumbingly similar. If the above really is what PvP players think, they literally wouldn't be able to handle what I've been talking about.

what if all the dps don't have a build option for survivability? or mobility, etc.
if you need survivability in a fight as a dps, for example, not all games will provide you that option. what I said still stands. this isn't a game where everyone can do everything, so your survivability depends on your support player and your own character movement.

WHIT3ROS3

I think there should be PvE dungeons in AoC. I think there should be instanced PvE encounters for solo and for groups.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

what if all the dps don't have a build option for survivability? or mobility, etc.

They will.

They may not all have available builds to make mobility the main aspect of the build, or to have survivability to the point of being a tank, but they will all have the ability to add to these factors.

Please note, I am specifically saying "they will" in the absolute. I am not saying "they may", or "they probably will".

They outright will.

Veeshan

You could socialise with PvP company and pay them to keep watch or cut them in for a chance of a drop and let them keep guard while you do the bosses

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

You could socialise with PvP company and pay them to keep watch or cut them in for a chance of a drop and let them keep guard while you do the bosses

You absolutely could.

However, I've yet to meet any PvP focused guilds I would trust enough for this.

Veeshan

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

You could socialise with PvP company and pay them to keep watch or cut them in for a chance of a drop and let them keep guard while you do the bosses

You absolutely could.

However, I've yet to meet any PvP focused guilds I would trust enough for this.

Generaly most pvp guild wont fuck you over unless they have a grudge aslong as the agreements are held up with pay or what not.
Like if you screw somone over in a deal for protection your pretty much never gonna be hired again so you fk urself for a single gain where u can keep a good thing going it beter for both sides

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

what if all the dps don't have a build option for survivability? or mobility, etc.

They will.

They may not all have available builds to make mobility the main aspect of the build, or to have survivability to the point of being a tank, but they will all have the ability to add to these factors.

Please note, I am specifically saying "they will" in the absolute. I am not saying "they may", or "they probably will".

They outright will.

that depends on thee game...

Dygz

The R-P-S factor of RPGs is supposed to mean that Mages are protected by other Classes in their group when they run out of Mana.
All too often in MMOs, each individual is focused on their own rotations, rather than focusing on R-P-S, supporting the strengths and weaknesses of their groupmates and syngergizing abilities with their allies.

Dygz

Veeshan wrote: »

Generaly most pvp guild wont fuck you over unless they have a grudge aslong as the agreements are held up with pay...

🙄

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