Is 64 classes still a good idea?

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

GrandSerpent wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time.

New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.

I don't see how it matters whether people get information about a game's systems by manually punching numbers into a spreadsheet versus just looking at a log file. People are going to do it either way.

The only thing that making the process more tedious actually achieves is making it harder for people to theorycraft and compare their data, which doesn't exactly help encourage an active community.

Being more difficult means people will be more actively doing it or talking to people and sharing things.

Being easier means you just look something up and don't need to talk to people.

There isn't a desire to rely on your group or community to talk directly and figure out the answers together.

Restricting people from using glasses does in fact tend to make them ask for help with math homework... Until people start calling them stupid or worse lording it over them because OTHER people can see just fine.

"Glasses make you less social and less likely to ask people for help with your math homework." That's what this sounds like.

Having logs doesn't make people "do less homework". There is still homework, it's just the 'bad eye sight' part we are getting rid of. People who are stuck on a problem will still talk with their peers.

You are missing the point.

Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.

How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.

I'm just speaking to the level of behavior I see on forums like this. Whether or not you consider your behavior is elementary school level is an issue you can discuss with yourself later.

Let's put it a different way. You shouldn't use a computer to look up a book in the library. Because that makes you less social because you don't have to talk with the librarian as much. Oh and DEFINITELY don't use your phone to google stuff so you can refine your book search better. Do I have that right? Slowing down people checking out books so they can actually talk to the people that matter later seems like a poor decision and a poor facsimile of human interaction. I'm glad you don't run my local library.

Ok so ill take that as you are trying to take my words, twist it around and do a passive aggressive insult towards me?

My comment on your glasses argument is that is not a reasonable thing from adults as any form example to be used. I don't know how you twist that into suggesting that is the conversation going on.

Using that as an example makes 0 sense because we are adults not childrens, that is not going to happen on a general level.

If you go to a library and are trying to find information on a book and you have two ways.

1. Turn the data base on, turn the pages to find the chapter and tell them to give you information on that chapter you have gone through with any detail you want. Doing so will finish up your assignment and you will get you A+

2. Yes talk to the librarian to find the book or learn a bit about it, work in your group of 3 on the assignment. Go through the chapters together and share information on the chapters you guys find. Fill in the answers but end up getting a b+ on your assignment.

Sure 1 will give you a high grade and be easier. But method 2 that takes long and is not as much of a 100% accurate way. From talking to people you gained bonds, you help each other with your own weaknesses and grow together with a overall better understanding of the topic do to your own work. And not just finding the pages and getting the answer given to you.

Option 3 exists. Turn the data base on, turn the pages to find the chapter and tell them to give you information on that chapter you have gone through with any detail you want. Work in your group of 3 on the assignment using the information you got from the library. Go through the chapters together and share information on the chapters you guys find.Get an A+ if you exhibit good teamwork.

You seem to think mmos are about 'fill in the answers'. Complex mmos that have strong teamwork and social elements don't have 'fill in the answer' style problems. Maybe that's what you are missing. A problem can be so complex/difficult that having all the information in front of you isn't enough to solve the problem. That is the sort of games I like to play and am used to. It's very possible you've just never played the kind of content we are even talking about here that Ashes has said they want to add.

You are missing the core of the point I'm getting across and talking about irrelevant points like "fill in the answers.

Your option 3 is effectively everyone copies the same answers and learns nothing. THere is no struggle of bonding to figure things out and grow closer to each other, no excite over overcoming some big task being successful or failing together.

You are trying to look for little plot holes while missing the entire point I'm getting across.

Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.

I'll remind you again that you're talking to people who have seen you play Soul Calibur and talked to other people who have similarly interacted with you there.

If you have an actual point to make, make it, but, fair or not, you're not gonna shake the stigma developed from watching/hearing about you flub around on Siegfried.

So at least stop 'appearing to be the same repetitive masher' when you post. No one is here to 'flex on you', you're not someone we consider 'worth flexing on', you're just annoyingly derailing every topic because you have some allergy to spreadsheets or something.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point.

Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.

How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.

You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.

Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.

Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"

Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.

Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.

But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.

Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.

That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.

I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.

I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.

Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.

I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.

Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.

What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.

And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Wait, that's an important question...

Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?

Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...

I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.

So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.

This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.

You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data

Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.

*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.

SirChancelot

@Azherae you're better than this homie, just let him go.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point.

Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.

How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.

You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.

Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.

Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"

Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.

Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.

But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.

Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.

That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.

I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.

I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.

Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.

I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.

Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.

What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.

And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Wait, that's an important question...

Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?

Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...

I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.

So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.

This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.

You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data

Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.

*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.

I feel like at this point if I go down this road it's just gonna turn into bullying you, and that is not what I'm here for. I hope that my teammates have blown off enough steam from having to read your inanity that this can stop here.

Combat logs exist. Combat logs can be parsed. Don't like it, continue to tell Intrepid about that. I'm not trying to drag you.

If you ever have time or willingness to indicate that you have ever actually done this or succeeded in something other than New World early PvP zerging or what have you, I'm happy to hear about it and even tell people to stop having this reaction to you.

For now, all we know about you besides that is that you mash on Siegfried and can't seem to hold a 'civil' conversation on forums without repeating yourself, and we really wish you'd stop.

SirChancelot wrote: »

@Azherae you're better than this homie, just let him go.

Yeah I was really hoping for 'something to relate back', but looks like that's not happening today.

@JustVine @SongRune hit up NiKr's earlier question about logs before you phase out again, would you? Asking here so that he knows to expect the answers.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.

I'll remind you again that you're talking to people who have seen you play Soul Calibur and talked to other people who have similarly interacted with you there.

If you have an actual point to make, make it, but, fair or not, you're not gonna shake the stigma developed from watching/hearing about you flub around on Siegfried.

So at least stop 'appearing to be the same repetitive masher' when you post. No one is here to 'flex on you', you're not someone we consider 'worth flexing on', you're just annoyingly derailing every topic because you have some allergy to spreadsheets or something.

Yup i knew where this was coming from, figured and guessed as much.

You are still talking about beta footage after I've already told you I was top 10 and played against actual competitive people -fp- That is literally more than you have done you won't even pick up the game. But than I'd end up teaching you a lesson in respect even being rusty and not having touched it in months.

I guess its always easier to talk or look at spread sheets than play a game ^_-.

Its funny since you make that comment with your bias and talk about derailing yet making points "You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion but to derail and throw passives aggressive insults.

I solve things by actually playing games and being competitive with some sportsmanship not back handed insults and avoiding challenges only to try to do snarky comments lmao.

Either step up and play or stop talking about soul calibur and how top players played back int he days.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point.

Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.

How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.

You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.

Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.

Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"

Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.

Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.

But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.

Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.

That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.

I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.

I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.

Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.

I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.

Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.

What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.

And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Wait, that's an important question...

Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?

Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...

I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.

So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.

This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.

You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data

Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.

*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.

I feel like at this point if I go down this road it's just gonna turn into bullying you, and that is not what I'm here for. I hope that my teammates have blown off enough steam from having to read your inanity that this can stop here.

Combat logs exist. Combat logs can be parsed. Don't like it, continue to tell Intrepid about that. I'm not trying to drag you.

If you ever have time or willingness to indicate that you have ever actually done this or succeeded in something other than New World early PvP zerging or what have you, I'm happy to hear about it and even tell people to stop having this reaction to you.

For now, all we know about you besides that is that you mash on Siegfried and can't seem to hold a 'civil' conversation on forums without repeating yourself, and we really wish you'd stop.

Who is talking about zerg pvp in world. Hope you aren't talking about me which fought a 5 group zerg guild lmao.

As i said before their stance in no third party add ons. If you get caught with it and they keep their stance and you get our account banned. That is on you for risking it at the end of the day.

Anyone can do anything, its up to the the dev to stick to what they want allowing it, not allowing it and the steps and consequences they will take.

It isn't for you or I to decide buddy.

Mag7spy wrote: »

"You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion

Breaking my self imposed rule to reply to you.

Each of these things absolutely is applicable to this discussion.

I play complex MMO's (imo EQ2 is the most complex MMO to date).

I also have friends.

Your argument is in part that combat trackers make MMO's less social. This is blatantly untrue.

For years I would get on MSN with various guild members three to four days a week during the day to talk about things we saw on our combat tracker. In the last two months I have had dinner 4 times with a guild member (twice at restaurants, one time each at our respective houses) specifically so the two of us could work out an anomoly we found using a combat tracker. I've taken guild members out for a few drinks to go over data, and lets not even talk about the e-mails, texts, phone calls and in game interaction.

Combat trackers increase social interaction - but only among people that both enjoy the data side of the game, and also want social interaction.

Anyone that said combat trackers do not increase social interaction in MMO's simply isn't interested in one of these two aspects. There is no other option.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

"You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion

Breaking my self imposed rule to reply to you.

Each of these things absolutely is applicable to this discussion.

I play complex MMO's (imo EQ2 is the most complex MMO to date).

I also have friends.

Your argument is in part that combat trackers make MMO's less social. This is blatantly untrue.

For years I would get on MSN with various guild members three to four days a week during the day to talk about things we saw on our combat tracker. In the last two months I have had dinner 4 times with a guild member (twice at restaurants, one time each at our respective houses) specifically so the two of us could work out an anomoly we found using a combat tracker. I've taken guild members out for a few drinks to go over data, and lets not even talk about the e-mails, texts, phone calls and in game interaction.

Combat trackers increase social interaction - but only among people that both enjoy the data side of the game, and also want social interaction.

Anyone that said combat trackers do not increase social interaction in MMO's simply isn't interested in one of these two aspects. There is no other option.

We have already had this argument so id rather not repeat it.....So you and I are strangers we know nothing of one another. So are we going to make an argument on assumptions on what each other plays and have that the crux of the argument.

Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other.

Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion to me judging who plays and who doesn't play complex mmorpgs since you and I are both strangers.

Sounds to me like its a comment not put in to further a disccusion to just to throw shade which gets no where except people taking things personal and trying to do passive aggressive attacks.

Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

I forget if I've asked this before but, @Azherae what's your group's stance on pvp info in the logs?

In other words, if a fire mob hits you with fire and a fire mage hits you with fire, should the log say "you received fire dmg" or should it say "you received dmg from this source", but it'd be on you to know what type of dmg that source puts out?

Cause I want full transparency on pve side (with types/passives/etc shown in the mob nameplate), while barely any transparency on the pvp side. So imo the log should say the latter sentence.

First of all to answer the straightforward part of your question: I think that 'amount of damage' is more important to tell me than 'type'. But ideally you would have the attack name next to the damage number so we'd gain the information through memorizing that through lived experience or information from others.

Well I have two main thoughts on this question since you are asking and it's a little different than Azherae's answer. To me logs serve two primary functions.

1. the logical function we have been arguing about. It's there to inform what happened and therefore is a tool you can use to investigate potential problems or things that confused you. I like to think of it a lot like reviewing match footage.
2. the emotional function. At the end of the day logs give you concrete answers as to why something happened. When people are confused they often can feel emotionally upset and like an injustice occurred. This can lead to a lot of hot or painful emotions to deal with. When you can identify the 'what' of a problem, it let's you focus the 'why' better and let you cool down.

I'm pro logs in PvP for the second reason much more than the first and because PvP is inherently social, I think there is a lot more value to giving tools that address potential emotional friction points. When I play fighting games or moba matches I get to review my footage and review the 'what' happened very easily. This makes it easier for me to ask Azherae 'why', or sometimes ask myself 'why'. At the end of the day, if I'm less confused I get to be less of a salty jerk and I'd rather live that way than have to stew in it until my guild captain is available. When people are less confused, I honestly believe communities are more capable of being healthy and I want Ashes to be a healthy community.

A point you've mentioned in your own responses to this topic have a lot to do with information warfare and quite frankly, this was why I did not want an 'examine' option for gear. To me gear is a part of 'why' not 'what'. I think that revealing the 'what' is sufficient for managing goal 2 of logs. The gear can be it's own mystery and information edge. But at the end of the day I get to have a higher level (strategically, not level wise) battles against opponents when we both have access to more data. I find that much MORE fun.

That also means I'd RATHER have some form of information related to the frame data and hitboxes of attacks as those are really essential for a lot of PvP moments. BUT I don't really personally need those things since I can just ask Azherae about hitboxes or Songrune about frame data without needing a built in tool. But idk, it just feels like information IS could easily give even just 'to let us as a community update the wiki'. It makes talking about class balance much more rational.

To add to above, if I had to have a preference, that would be it. I care about the 'what happened' not 'how did the player manage to make it happen. In simple games where the only real 'what' that can happen is damage, then this tends to explain most things, and might therefore feel like it is unfortunate to have all that information available, but I don't think this is a good path for an ambitious MMO that is aiming for interesting combat, to have.

So if, for example, a Tank/Fighter has a damage bonus against 'a person who does damage to someone they are protecting', and they have a gear piece that enhances critical chance against that person too, and then a Fighter augment on top of that which increases their Crit chance/damage further as a baseline, I don't need to know anything other than 'wow that hit really hard'.

But I would still want the log to tell me 'That was a Critical Hit' instead of just 'you took damage'. As for damage types... I feel that's a thing I should get to see? Like, magic and physical damage would, realistically 'feel different' to my character. Similarly, said character would know 'that attack came from my left and hit me' and therefore be able to 'know who hit them' to some extent.

If Intrepid wants to make it so that two mages casting Black Hole in the same chokepoint causes the logs to say 'took damage from Black Hole' instead of 'took damage from X's Black Hole' and 'took Damage from Y's Black Hole' separately, I'm fine with that.

They can go all the way to 'You are taking damage from Hallowed Ground' without any indicator of whose Hallowed Ground it is, but if an Oracle's Hallowed Ground is doing Lightning Damage, I feel like you should be able to tell that is happening when you review the log, if things were chaotic around you while it was happening. The log is part of 'your character's memory' meant to make up for the inability to see everything perfectly at all times. Your character certainly should 'remember getting electrocuted', even if all you saw was a mess of damage numbers popping up.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.

If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.

How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.

You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.

If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.

If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.

How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.

You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.

If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.

Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....

SongRune

I'm on exactly the same page as @JustVine and @Azherae here.

I want to know what abilities people used, and if they're not templated, who they targeted and whether they missed or hit), and how much damage you did. Exactly how you achieved that within your build, etc, I don't need to know. This lets me see the overall flow of battle, which is fundamental to both adaptation and strategy, particularly in post-analysis. (Assuming I'm not expected to be recording every second of gameplay to YouTube - I can just die (or win), go home, and read my scrollback.)
I want crits marked, so I can interpret the incoming damage values. There's no reason for 'how much damage I take overall' to be obscured that way. How you did it? Sure maybe.
I'm on the fence about "what element is this damage". I feel like it's probably okay to have to interpret that from what ability you used or the animation (which should be clear) most of the time, depending on the style of game. Still. I should be able to tell what I'm getting hurt by. You can require me to interpret "oh thats because of fire arrows" or "thats because of ability Y". But tell me it's Lightning my character's feeling.
I want to see healing (not Regeneration, just Burst Heal). This is similar 'basic flow of battle'. Having some perspective on how strong your healer is seems reasonable enough. This is again an 'overall flow of battle' type thing, particularly in post-analysis.
If someone gets a buff or debuff, I want that logged. Same thing. If I'm looking back later, this is the part where positioning 'has mattered'.

Philosophically: Clearly represent the overall flow of battle, and exactly how much damage I'm taking from where (and what my character can obviously feel about that damage). It's fine to hide builds or 'how they got that much fire damage'. If I missed some buff going up, or other aspects of the flow during a fight, that's natural. It's because my enemy gave me too much (or something else) to focus on, and I dropped the data. But for similar reasons to @JustVine, I feel it's best to be able to look through it afterwards. You could argue that this ruins tactics by making things less repeatable in PvP, but realistically it only stops Gimmicks. Mixups, trickery, etc, are all still going to work. You just vary your movement, or get some counter-play going. Bring fire twice, then Ice the third time. Switch up 'who attacks when', and how or when you use various tactics. The game will be fine, and people get to learn, be less salty, and experience cycles of adaptation and outwitting eachother, rather than getting stomped 10 times until finally "THAT's what he was doing?!". That might be fun for him the first time, but it's not healthy for anyone (or the game), long term.

Depraved

I will reply in 1 or 2 days. my reply is quite long and I'm lazy plus had to do lots of stuff at home, but I haven't forgot about your questions ;3

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.

If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.

How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.

You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.

If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.

Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....

What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.

You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.

SunScript

Mag7spy wrote: »

Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time.

New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.

Lack of information is NOT lack of mindset/desire for that information, if you're going to derail a good thread for this, please at least understand this much. In other words, people haven't actually changed over time, the only thing that changed is how easily they can compile the information, not how much social interaction they seek or how "lazy" they wanna be.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.

If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.

How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.

You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.

If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.

Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....

What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.

You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.

What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.