Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. Hold on there friend. That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log. A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker). Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing). DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format. Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other. i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server. imagine you cant hack their server. you get 0 info about the combat. how people are gonna clear? but if you gonna hack to clear, might as well just bot to clear =x
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. Hold on there friend. That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log. A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker). Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing). DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format. Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other. i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T Without getting in to any detail at all, there is always the possibility, scope, access, expertise and precedent for a combat tracker running on the games server.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. Hold on there friend. That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log. A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker). Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing). DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format. Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other. i dont think aoc will do this but just for fun, if they decided not to display any combat information, like damage, etc. or even send it to the client, then combat trackers will have nothing to display. how are combat tracker users going to improve and clear stuff then? XDDD that would be funny to watch T_T
Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. Hold on there friend. That is only something combat trackers can do if that information is in the combat log. A combat tracker is only reading the combat log and displaying it in an easier to understand manner. Part of this is in a real time tally of DPS of those present (this is the DPS meter function of a combat tracker). Telling you what mechanic is happening, when it is happening and who it is targetting can literally only be done by a combat tracker if that information is in the combat log (or the chat log - which are usually the same thing). DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. This is something many people dont actually get - a combat tracker by definition can do nothing other than display the information in the games logs. It is taking information the developers want us to have (they literally hand the information to us), and simply present it in an easier to understand format. Its kind of the equivlent of someone posting a long post on the forums with no punctuation or line breaks making it exceedingly difficult to read, and then someone coming in and adding that punctuation and creating paragraphs, thus making the post wasier to read. The information in both cases is exactly the same, just one is easier to understand than the other.
Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting.
BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either. So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow. This just shows a total lack of understanding. WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files. The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch. What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range. The lack of understanding is literally on display in this portion here of your reply. How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction. In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when. A combat assistant, however, can. You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next. Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless. You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming. WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had. Your argument is "combat tracker will exist no matter what". People can already do simple python programs that use recognition in images to detect stuff, so it's not far fetched, it's something that is happening right now. So a combat tracker means a combat assistant. According to your logic "they will happen nonetheless" so yeah. Combat assistant incoming
Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either. So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow. This just shows a total lack of understanding. WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files. The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch. What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range. The lack of understanding is literally on display in this portion here of your reply. How can you make that program? How can you know what abilities are incoming? The only way you can do that is if the abilities are on a timer - and encounters with abilities that are on a timer are designed in this manner specifically so that players can time them. That is literally the intended interaction. In an encounter where abilities are not on a set timer, a combat tracker can't tell you shit in regards to what is coming and when. A combat assistant, however, can. You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next. Speculation on what may come in the following years is pointless. You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming. WoW at launch had a more exposed API than any other AAA MMO has ever had.
BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either. So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow. This just shows a total lack of understanding. WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files. The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch. What lack of understanding it shows? You can make a program that after X min of combat lets you know what abilities are incoming in what time range.
Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either. So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow. This just shows a total lack of understanding. WoW has the tools it has because of it's open access to the games API, not because of information contained in the games log files. The closest thing a combat tracker without access to the games API can get to a combat assistant is to be a combat tracker with a built in stopwatch.
BlackBrony wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes. So, what is the block in creating a combat assistant if you know all the information? If Combat trackers can't be stopped, then Combat Assistant can't be stopped either. So the more info you have, the easier will be to implement a combat assistant. So in less time Ashes will be another Wow.
Noaani wrote: » Taerrik wrote: » Combat trackers, (DBM, cactbot, whatever mechanic callout bot program for the game in question) Give very beneficial information to a team, as in they tell you what mechanics are happening and when, and who they are targeting. DBM isnt a combat tracker, it is a combat assistant. No one (that i am aware of) is asling for a combat assistsnt in Ashes.
You can also use software with AI that recognizes pattern (visual cues) and knows what's coming next.
You don't need an exposed API to know what's coming. Wow in Vanilla didn't have that and we still have combat assistant that let you know the next ability incoming.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr Sometimes you live long enough....
NiKr wrote: » You like pvp, right? I'd assume you consider it a fairly social feature, cause people group up and work together to fight enemies, and they can find great rivals to respect and potentially even befriend for years to come. So let's say a person says that they find pvp mmo utterly unsocial. And when you ask them why they think so they say "several of my friends played pvp mmos and they'd always get kicked from parties/guilds for being too weak, and then they'd get killed in pvp because they were alone". Would you say that this person is factually incorrect?
Dygz wrote: » "Factually incorrect" is a misleading question because - as this megathread exemplifies - it's really down to opinion and playstyle and what the devs wish to support for their game.
Dygz wrote: » Combat Logs are there for individuals to be able to review their own tactics - should they choose to do so. They absolutely are not there for debates or arguments because they are intended for individual review; not for party review -- especially in the Ashes design. Combat Trackers/DPS Meters exist for groups to review. Where there are multiple perspectives and interpretations of data - expect debate and arguments to ensue.
Dygz wrote: » Don't have to notice all potential happenings in an encounter. Just have to be aware enough to be successful. And, we shouldn't need to rely on combat logs to be successful. Especially when they are reviewed after the encounter has ended.
NiKr wrote: » That question was in the context of Mag arguing about socialness (or lack of) of trackers. I simply tried to put him into the shoes of someone on the other side of his argument. You're more of a unique situation in this context because you agree with Mag's stance of "we shouldn't need trackers", but you're also not a pvper, so my example doesn't apply to you in the way it, supposedly, applies to Mag.
Dygz wrote: » Yep... But, even for Mag... it's not going to be a matter of factually incorrect- regardless of his actual answer.
NiKr wrote: » And when the game is built around party being a single combat unit, personal logs ARE a part of the party log. So if the party fails to do smth, it's much easier to notice the source of the fail if everyone has their logs. And as Azherae pointed out in the past, parties usually have a person who's the best at analyzing logs, so instead of every member doing it on their own - it's a party interaction, mainly with the "log person".
NiKr wrote: » we're talking about hardcore challenge pve, while, I assume, you're mostly talking about lower challenge pve. Unless your party experience differs from your own preferences? Cause I don't remember if I've ever asked you about that.
Dygz wrote: » But, in terms of DPS Meters... I hate in when my friends are kicked from META-focused parties/raids for not being META. Because I am more interested in the social aspects of cooperative playing than I am in the META aspects of competitive gaming.
Dygz wrote: » Usually, I'm the one in guild parties who will figure out a winning strategy for defeating (PvE) challenges based on what each individual member brings to the group and based on how each individual player likes to play their class build. And I do that without consulting combat logs. I just pay attention to player behaviors and mob behaviors.
Dygz wrote: » You aren't supposed to find the "weakest link" - you just need to determine how to synergize with your groupmates to mitigate their weaknesses and enhance their strengths. While evaluating the strenghts and weaknesses of your opponents. And you should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that - especially, the group should not need to rely on a combat tracker to do that. You don't really need to "improve". You just need to be able to defeat the challenges you encounter.
Otr wrote: » Some people want to play the game with combat trackers, others without. Who should to be the target audience?
Azherae wrote: » Bill Trost?
