Resting after a Battle/Fight.

Hello,

I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it.

However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.

Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release?

I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic.
This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain.

The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it.
I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.

Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me.
Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing.

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Ludullu

Orym wrote: »

1 How long after leaving combat should you be back to full HP/mana?

Depends on the class and build. I'd say 30 seconds is the upper limit on classes with shittiest mana regen builds. Sitting down should get that down to ~20-25s.

Orym wrote: »

2 Do you think mana should be a limiting factor how long you could stay in combat? Even if you do everything you can to fill up.

Basic attacks shouldn't consume mana imo, so you can still contribute at least smth to the fight, but this would have to be properly balanced considering all the passives and triggers and all that shit.

Xeeg

NiKr wrote: »

Orym wrote: »

1 How long after leaving combat should you be back to full HP/mana?

Depends on the class and build. I'd say 30 seconds is the upper limit on classes with shittiest mana regen builds. Sitting down should get that down to ~20-25s.

@Orym
Personally, I would think that natural hp/mana regen should be very slow without items or spells. Like 3-5mins to regen 100%. Maybe .3% hp/mana per second.

30s rest for 100%, or something like 3% hp/mana per second, seems like a good spot.

The devs will find the exact spots through testing/balancing. It really depends on the interaction with their healing system in general.

Azherae

3% mana per second sitting, 1% standing. So, 30s

2~2.5% health per second sitting (I'm used to this ramping up the longer you sit, and quite a lot, so that 'recovering 80% health' isn't even twice as long as recovering 30%, sometimes), 0.4% standing. This is normally less than 30 seconds, therefore.

No universal passives for changing this (these are just noob traps or wastes, and nearly never anything in between). Food and gear only. And no 'Bards have an ability that changes this'. I like when Bards or Mages can restore Mana, but not 'out of combat restoration', and certainly not 'improve the natural out-of-combat restoration'. Too limiting for perceptions of grouping.

As for question #2:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/381917/#Comment_381917

Depraved

30 seconds seems too low and abusable, and 5 mins seems too long.

id say something like 2 mins every 10 mins of non stop combat if you are soloing (this also allows you to rest your hands and stand up etc hahaha).

i also like sit baiting. if i know someone wants to kill me and is waiting for me to sit down to start attacking me (maybe because they think im much stronger) i will bait them after killing a couple of mobs, then kill them when they flag

cant do this with instant or almost instant regen out of combat

but what you can do is polymorph the enemy then go back to full health and mana during a fight ewwwww.

Lash

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54081/essay-on-downtime-in-games/p1#top

Here is my post about downtime in general but most of it applies to health and mana regeneration. TLDR is that health and mana regen are good balance knobs for playing safe Vs risky aoe pulling. If you want both gameplay variants to exist you cannot have near instant regeneration. Most times a player is killed in the world by mobs is by attrition because players are expected to kill mobs. If you always fight at full resources the game is solved, you will always win. It becomes old fast.

Xeeg

Depraved wrote: »

30 seconds seems too low and abusable, and 5 mins seems too long.

Well it could be abusable depending on how they implement it. I saw another comment about resting rate ramp up time. They could also do something like a 2s animation to rest/standup where your character cant use abilities.

As for the 5mins, I meant that for base rate regen, not sitting down to rest or buffs or spells or anything. In combat base regen rate.

Another thing to take into account is general character balance for solo leveling/grinding. If a character chooses a build/style which doesn't need to rest, maybe they kill the mobs slower than ones that burn alot of hps or mana, kill quickly, but need to rest. This is going to take a lot of balance passes. However, they can set the anchor to 30s rest rate and then balance around that instead.

If they are going to stay with the resting idea, they should have a variety of activities (crafting, cooking, making potions, etc.) that are usable while resting. This way we can synergize our resting time with other things that we can be doing while out in the field. A bonus to crafting while in the field is that only materials drop on death, so if we can craft while gathering we limit our exposure to losing mats.

Depraved

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

30 seconds seems too low and abusable, and 5 mins seems too long.

Well it could be abusable depending on how they implement it. I saw another comment about resting rate ramp up time. They could also do something like a 2s animation to rest/standup where your character cant use abilities.

As for the 5mins, I meant that for base rate regen, not sitting down to rest or buffs or spells or anything. In combat base regen rate.

Another thing to take into account is general character balance for solo leveling/grinding. If a character chooses a build/style which doesn't need to rest, maybe they kill the mobs slower than ones that burn alot of hps or mana, kill quickly, but need to rest. This is going to take a lot of balance passes. However, they can set the anchor to 30s rest rate and then balance around that instead.

not using skils during standing up or sitting down animations is fine. but i disagree with the ramping up mechanic. what if you have to sit down then after a few seconds you have to stand up to fight a mob that spawned nearby, or maybe a player ied near you and the mob decided to attack you, or simply someone tried to pvp you. sometimes you have to afk for only a few seconds then you sit down to regen. or maybe even during a boss fight, the supports will heal then sit down to regen when no one needs heals or buffs. not being able to regen well or at full capacity for several seconds when you sit down can really messes up everything i mentioned above.

Orym

After reading your post @Lashing and everyone else I am exited to see if I can enjoy a different system than what I am used to but I am not convinced yet

I still feel like in between combat downtime should be low and you able to mitigate downtime by being prepared with potions, food, gear, spec and friends.

You can have some downtime when you are back at the node, crafting the gear you fought for. Not when you are out killing mobs/players.

Lash

Orym wrote: »

After reading your post @Lashing and everyone else I am exited to enjoy a different system than what I am used to but I am not convinced yet

I still feel like in between combat downtime should be low and you able to mitigate downtime by being prepared with potions, food, gear, spec and friends.

You can have some downtime when you are back at the node, crafting the gear you fought for. Not when you are out killing mobs/players.

I am actually a big fan of players being able to mitigate downtime via build choices or consumables. Consumables move time spent to another activity while build options requires other power trade offs to be effective. I just know from other games the second mass AOE is most optimal you will be expected to do it and any class that cant do it will not be useful. AOE will always be better but it can be mitigated by making it more risky or give it more downtime or both.

Tyranthraxus

Am also NOT a fan of the current recovery-animation of sitting down.

Panting heavily and perhaps taking a knee with your weapon in-hand, or even your character putting their hands on their knees and lowering their head and breathing heavily while dripping sweat would seem more-realistic, given how tiring mortal combat can be.

SOMETHING should definitely replace the sit-and-wait, though.

Dezemi

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Am also NOT a fan of the current recovery-animation of sitting down.

Panting heavily and perhaps taking a knee with your weapon in-hand, or even your character putting their hands on their knees and lowering their head and breathing heavily while dripping sweat would seem more-realistic, given how tiring mortal combat can be.

SOMETHING should definitely replace the sit-and-wait, though.

Those animations should definitely be added as options!

Ideally, I'd see Intrepid add different resting animations that one can choose from. Aion had amazing animations that one could use while waiting - I'd love to see some of them as resting animations. Some examples could be:
* Just sitting - should be available in different poses.
* Pasing back and forth while stretching a bit.
* Conjure a stool or chair to sit on.
* Taking a drink from a water skin.
* Some weapon-based leaning pose (leaning towards your greatsword etc)

You get the idea c: DEVs! Take a look at Aions incredible animations!

Dabb

Mag7spy wrote: »

tautau wrote: »

....but was there resource management before you had to sit?

You aren't in combat when you are not fighting there is no resource management involved. Combat and non combat are two different things.

Trying to suggest there is resource management while you literarily are doing nothing is absolutely silly.

Interesting

Saabynator

Xeeg wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Orym wrote: »

1 How long after leaving combat should you be back to full HP/mana?

Depends on the class and build. I'd say 30 seconds is the upper limit on classes with shittiest mana regen builds. Sitting down should get that down to ~20-25s.

@Orym
Personally, I would think that natural hp/mana regen should be very slow without items or spells. Like 3-5mins to regen 100%. Maybe .3% hp/mana per second.

30s rest for 100%, or something like 3% hp/mana per second, seems like a good spot.

The devs will find the exact spots through testing/balancing. It really depends on the interaction with their healing system in general.

One of the problems with making it too fast, is that the utility of some classes goes out the window.

Saabynator

Mag7spy wrote: »

tautau wrote: »

....but was there resource management before you had to sit?

You aren't in combat when you are not fighting there is no resource management involved. Combat and non combat are two different things.

Trying to suggest there is resource management while you literarily are doing nothing is absolutely silly.

I dont think its silly. You arent doing "nothing". You are recovering, thats their vision for the game. You could be in PvP or being chased by a mob or whatever - when are you then out of combat?

Lash

Having to sit and wait is not the resource management. It is the penalty for having bad resource management or for taking risks that resulted in having low resources. Slower safe play should result in very little downtime in exchange for less efficiency during actual combat.

Mag7spy

Saabynator wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

tautau wrote: »

....but was there resource management before you had to sit?

You aren't in combat when you are not fighting there is no resource management involved. Combat and non combat are two different things.

Trying to suggest there is resource management while you literarily are doing nothing is absolutely silly.

I dont think its silly. You arent doing "nothing". You are recovering, thats their vision for the game. You could be in PvP or being chased by a mob or whatever - when are you then out of combat?

Their vision lol, last i checked no dev has said sitting requires resource management.

When you are sitting and not in combat you are not doing ANYTHING. Stop trying to say you are doing things, sitting requires you to not being doing any actions hence 0 management.

The fact people keep trying to say it is, is giving me brain rot.

Mag7spy

To the other part with people trying to argue some classes can help with that IE bard so you recover faster.

Yall trying to make bard dead on arrival, or have useless skills people aren't going to pick. Unless you are talking about a default passive on bard that makes everyone regen faster. So we are talking about making resting worse (aka the game worse) just to facilitate this ability.

This should have nothing to do with resting and just have to do with general gameplay during combat. Ie increased healing and mp regen during combat. And keep the skills relevant while having resting times to good on their own.

People are trying to be like it needs to be like mmorpgs, while actually ignoring it didn't take 30 seconds to recover in old mmorpgs and more like 10-20 seconds. So effectively they are trying to make it worse and its not even grounded reasoning.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

while actually ignoring it didn't take 30 seconds to recover in old mmorpgs and more like 10-20 seconds

L2 took way longer, especially on phys classes. And I'm relatively sure stuff like EQ took longer as well. And I'd assume those were in turn faster than the true old mmos (well, maybe not EQ, cause that shit is ancient).

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

while actually ignoring it didn't take 30 seconds to recover in old mmorpgs and more like 10-20 seconds

L2 took way longer, especially on phys classes. And I'm relatively sure stuff like EQ took longer as well. And I'd assume those were in turn faster than the true old mmos (well, maybe not EQ, cause that shit is ancient).

If the mmo does not have a rest function you can't say it took longer it simply just doesn't have that. So no EQ1 did not have a rest as you used other means to regain. That also was also meant to be much slower combat pace.

Almost all if not all mmorpgs where you have the ability to rest and recover do not take that long.

If we are talking about automatic regeneration without a rest skill in mmorpgs that still isn't taking over 20 seconds. So it sounds to me like L2 did not have the best design if you are telling me you need to be waiting WAY longer than 30 seconds to recover. Even worse if its like the video people are sayin was like old games where every few fights you should be resting.

Like its already bad and than i hear over 30 seconds on rest in a game, is not doing your side any favors.

Dragonseed

I enjoy that sitting..perhaps all crafting while resting and give sitting/resting a 50% boost for heathregen and allow some classes to meditate to boost mana Regen and allow some gear to boost regain rates some that can be crafted... besides the obvious food/drinks

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