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How do you feel about the augment system reveal from the fighter stream?
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Steven mentioned the augment system, and said that the skill tree with the skill specs is foundational for the augment system.
At around 18:44 in the 4K fighter video on Youtube, he starts talking about augments, and tells us that augments are essentially skill specs than can alter the skills a bit more radically than regular skill specs. He mentions one of the Whirlwind skill specs as an example of what an augment could be. I hope augments are a bit more impactful than that specific skill spec though.
From the wiki:
An example I think is closer to what I hope augments are is the Maim ability, with the skill spec called Slicing Maim. Check from 12:26 in the 4K video on Youtube. Slicing Maim adds a lot of range to the skill.
Another example is the Reinvigorating Exert skill spec, that reduces cooldowns by 1% for each point of combat momentum the fighter has upon activation.
In the past we've heard about fighter/mage applying a teleportation school augment to their gap closer. In this case I expect Blitz to be have an augment/skill spec to become a teleport instead of the Fighter flying through the air. It might help attack up ledges, and get past blocking tanks and such, where collision detection would otherwise stop the Blitz halfway to the enemy backline.
Overall it makes a lot of sense to me that this is how augments will be implemented, which is as powerful skill specs in the tree. Not necessarily in the same window. It could be a separate one for augments. What do you guys think? Does it line up with what you thought? Did you imagine something very different?
At around 18:44 in the 4K fighter video on Youtube, he starts talking about augments, and tells us that augments are essentially skill specs than can alter the skills a bit more radically than regular skill specs. He mentions one of the Whirlwind skill specs as an example of what an augment could be. I hope augments are a bit more impactful than that specific skill spec though.
From the wiki:
Augments can affect a multitude of things and can (in some cases) create entirely new skills.
- Drastically change the ability itself.
- Change the damage type and value.
- Change the cooldown period.
- Change the distance (of the skill).
- Change the effect from a ranged to melee ability.
An example I think is closer to what I hope augments are is the Maim ability, with the skill spec called Slicing Maim. Check from 12:26 in the 4K video on Youtube. Slicing Maim adds a lot of range to the skill.
Another example is the Reinvigorating Exert skill spec, that reduces cooldowns by 1% for each point of combat momentum the fighter has upon activation.
In the past we've heard about fighter/mage applying a teleportation school augment to their gap closer. In this case I expect Blitz to be have an augment/skill spec to become a teleport instead of the Fighter flying through the air. It might help attack up ledges, and get past blocking tanks and such, where collision detection would otherwise stop the Blitz halfway to the enemy backline.
Overall it makes a lot of sense to me that this is how augments will be implemented, which is as powerful skill specs in the tree. Not necessarily in the same window. It could be a separate one for augments. What do you guys think? Does it line up with what you thought? Did you imagine something very different?
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Comments
If Intrepid believe they can at least successfully pretend that there's some form of balance in the game (even if it's purely 8v8 stuff), while having those kinds of augments - great, all the power to them.
But until I see real augments on at least 2-3 archetypes - I won't believe that the entire system will be as extensive as the maim sidegrade seems to imply.
I think it allows you to keep your primary class identity, which you originally chose, and give it your own spin based on your play style, which can be fun to do.
As a developer who knows how this can be done, I believe they can do what they say and what I expect, based on what I saw.
The only thing that changed for me (and not because of the comment, but rather, because of the showcase overall) is my expectations of the Augment trees themselves 'per Archetype'.
There were some things I would have expected to be limited, based on my prior list, that I no longer expect to be as limited, so if anything, I expect it to be even cooler now. Makes me wish the game's combat style suited me more.
I also don't have concerns about balance due to it. Augments are unlikely to be the part of balance where glaring heavy flaws appear.
I can't decide which meme goes here, 'I am no man' or 'You underestimate my power' so just imagine a mashup where Eowyn tries to kill Obi Wan, I guess.
People like me will love it, but I fear many will only follow what's considered or perceived as to "best". Whether because it's thought as the strongest option, the easiest option to play, the more consistent, the most versatile, the optimal for x playstyle, ... That's all fine, so long as those who chose to thread a different path for their class are not ostracized for doing so.
Even if we're only talking about the weapon skill tree, not even involving the augments, how many will level multiple weapons trees so they can switch for the most synergizing procs depending with whom they're grouping with?
As for balance, I'm more concerned about poor options, those with so specialized or situational uses that they shouldn't be picked by anyone.
I'm looking forward to their first true reveal of augments.
As @Percimes mentioned above, it is likely that most people will just use a few of the possible combinations because someone said that it was 'the best.'
I think that expert players (which is more defined by 'mental ability' than by 'time spent in game') will come up with some pretty useful ideas which they will then keep secret.
I will also predict that a lot of the people who call the system "unbalanced" will not be the experts and will not have explored it to any real depth.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Another example is both ranger and fighter have forms that can be considered tanky, hunt of the bear and form of fluidity. I can see a skill tree with these two stances for the tank turning up the mitigation of these stances and increasing aggro generation while they are active. Nothing will really change that much in the grand scheme of things, but the fighter would now have the capability of tanking with several abilities offering skill trees to allow it.
But soo many questions about augment implementation.
How many augment options will each skill have? Sometimes none? Always one? Always three (that sounds impossible, to make 24 augment option for every ability)? It would be nice for some skills to have tradeoffs in augments. IE, with a mage secondary, you can pick a fire augment (DPS/burning) or a frost (frozen stack/snare) augment for a specific attack. It feels like less of a tradeoff if you can just get frost for one attack in a chain and fire for a different attack.
Will augments cost a skill point or be a freebie? That's a big difference right there, as now you're putting another SP into one ability for the augment, and less into another ability.
There are so many possibilities for fun game play.
At first I thought the Fighter was going to be a pure melee dps archetype. The recent Showcase showed that a better comparison would be from Cities of Heroes, with the Fighter being like the Brute, to the Tank's Tanker.
We actually know really explicitly now, that Augments don't cost skill points.
It would have to be changed again and they'd probably announce it or something.
If that's what the class system is all about forget about necromancers, blade dancers and what not. Too early to tell but I just cant see it happening, unless the animations change drastically.
Adding a red blaster at the end of one ability and an upwards cut on another isnt enough to justify the 64 combos.
Also, good luck using a bow on a Fighter.
We need 15-20 solid classes with a few weapon options to satisfy a large variety of gameplays and offer a class identity.
We dont need the 64 classes.
I am fine with playing the fighter as is if things remain the same.
BDO is a prime example of balance and how unachievable it is anyway. Every class is the same with different button configurations... CC, AoE, SA, FG, iFrame. They give each class the same toolkit and it doesn't feel great. I think a large part of the issue with imbalance is likely the server tick rates and the fact that everyone is playing on a wide range of ping rates... so that speed of combat just doesn't jive. I won't go into too much detail as I'm sure not everyone has tons of endgame pvp experience in BDO but the new showcase for fighter has sure given me a good feeling for Ashes PvP future. People think they want BDO combat but it doesn't feel good, unless you're next door to the server. (You likely won't notice until you're 1000 hours into PvP but when you do get to that point, it's hard to stick around after you realize what's happening)
Please someone make this "You underestimate my being no man" meme.
I just played predecessor today for the first time X_X
edit: who is a good jungler to learn the game? ;3
This makes sense to me. It wasn't what I thought they were advertising, but it is a sensible way to making something close to that vision become a reality.
At this point I am expecting that not EVERY skill is augmentable by all 8 classes in multiple ways.
So doing it on a handful of skills within the skill tree with a few options make sense, and is a manageable way of implementing the idea.
One thing I really liked about the WOW dragonflight skill trees is that there aren't a lot of "useless" options. Each option is suited for different things. For example, my rogue has multiple specs that I load up for Arenas, small BGs, 40 man BGs, Raids, etc. When I play with my disc priest buddy I have a certain build that works well with him. Like I'm not going to do an AOE rogue build in a 2v2 arena, for example, but I may throw it on for the 40v40 BG. And thats just an assassination rogue, could still swap to sub or outlaw for completely different playstyles.
If they make the skill trees similar, where there is a more or less obvious "best" path for different kinds of content, you don't need to worry about balancing every skill on tree against themselves for every conceivable scenario.
Do you care a lot about winning while learning?
Y: Choose Khaimera.
N: Continue
Do you rage and lose motivation when you get hard countered and become ineffective?
Y: Choose Serath
N: Continue
Do you want to prove that you are skilled and/or original and know what you're doing from other games, and be rewarded for success so hard that your opponents will definitely just give up?
Y: Choose Zarus
N: Continue
Do you like to make your opponents entirely unable to do anything to you if you start winning hard enough MORE than you care about helping your team late?
Y: Choose Greystone
N: Continue
Do you like brawling with the enemy jungler?
Y: Choose Grux
N: Continue
Do you like diving into a group of people and assassinating all of them personally with razor-precision (ofc you utterly die if you miss)?
Y: Choose Feng Mao
N: Continue
Do you need to be able to get the kill on people who have good escapes more than you need to be able to brawl?
Y: Choose Shinbi
N: Continue
Do you really only care about doing all of the above, but none of them very well?
Y: Choose Sevarog
N: Choose Riktor or Kwang.
Agreed. League of Legends has done that frequently in the past where they nerf OP characters into the ground and make them unusable, then nobody plays them for years. A more cautious approach is better. If one choice is blatantly stronger than the rest, yeah go ahead and nerf it but not excessively. Do a small-moderate nerf and wait and see how it performs. If a majority of people continue to favor it as time goes on, it's safe to say it's still too strong. On the other hand if only a few augments/skills are being selected out of many, it's best to buff the rest to be on par with those. A combination of small nerfs and buffs is the best approach.
what about kallari? i like stealth ;-; is she good?
I personally don't suggest playing Kallari or Crunch when learning, I guess that's all I can say.
It's too easy to get caught up in 'what should theoretically happen' and waste too much time.
When you already know what to do, she can be really great.
A good (and relevant) way to put it, is that if you chose 'Rogue' in Ashes, but tried to double down on secondary Archetype, you might end up with 'enough stealth' but not 'enough damage to kill without a lot of coordination and perfect judgement'.
That's what playing Kallari is like for beginners. Most of the recommended builds and items will make you end up as Rogue/Rogue, which takes a lot more focus and understanding than Rogue/Fighter, and even then, it's still hard.
But hey, if you're really good at assassination style from some other game, rock on.