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Why the Cleric Archetype is AOC's most important Archetype and Cannot Fail.
kanersen
Member, Alpha Two
Historically the 2 main classes that have always been in short supply in MMO's have been tanks and healers and even between these 2, tanks are considered the more appealing class type for most players. Ashes is a PvX game, meaning PvE and PvP are very much intertwined. Clerics are absolutely needed in both in order to create an atmosphere where groups can excel in both. My worry is that currently, there is not enough agency of choice on class play within the toolkit of this 1 and only healing class to entice enough players to roll clerics. The result is group dynamics as a whole will suffer and the playing experiences of all players will suffer, not just clerics. It won't be fun as a tank when there isn't enough healing around to sustain against a boss. It won't be fun as a dps if there isn't enough healing around to prevent you from getting gibbed in PvP. It won't be fun to any group when they can't do any kind of content because they have to wait around until the healer roles are filled. And while you can say the inverse of this to other archetypes, those archetypes again are much more in abundance and less relied on in group dynamics.
This is because while healing has appeal to some players, other archetypes generally have greater appeal to more players. Typically, tanks get the glory in PvE and DPS get the glory in PvP while healers by nature are not intuitive to be the superstar class. This is fine, however to counterbalance that, MMO's have typically offered a variety of healing class types to appeal to niche's more then healing itself. The mobile healer, the tanky healer, the HOT healer, the hybrid DOT damage healer, the utility healer, the melee focus fighter-healer, the spell damage castor hybrid healer. These are all healer kits that fulfill healing fantasy types - not simply 1 or 2 spells that somewhat deviate a core healbot toolkit. Through MMO's offering this agency of choice in a variety of healing classes, it offers a variety of ways for a player to fulfill their desired healing kit fantasy. The resto druid would be incredibly fun to someone that would choose to make that class fantasy their "main" while the same player would feel a holy paladin as the last class fantasy in a game they would want to play. I am worried about this lack of choice not only hurting the Cleric Archetype but AoC's group dynamics as a whole, which will incredibly lean on the Cleric Archetype more so then any other archetype in the game.
Ashes has 1 healing archetype, and while it may be possible to implement some of the above into your niche gameplay, you are fundamentally limited into how much of the above you can incorporate regardless of your sub class and your augments. On top of that - while the Cleric showcase was a good take on a healer - I think most people would agree it pales in comparison to both Ranger and Fighter, if not the Mage as well. I see a variety of engaging heal abilities in the cleric's kit, which is great. However it lacks an incredible amount of both utility and offensive abilities from both a castor and especially melee focus. If the cleric archetype only offers anecdotal abilities to support these additional healing kits of player healing fantasy builds, then healing in ashes will fail because there are no additional classes that can fill those desired roles. I hope AoC recognizes the need to offer a diversity of choice within the cleric toolkit even at the risk of more deviation through subclasses compared to other classes because it is absolutely needed in order to support group dynamics of all classes as a whole.
This is because while healing has appeal to some players, other archetypes generally have greater appeal to more players. Typically, tanks get the glory in PvE and DPS get the glory in PvP while healers by nature are not intuitive to be the superstar class. This is fine, however to counterbalance that, MMO's have typically offered a variety of healing class types to appeal to niche's more then healing itself. The mobile healer, the tanky healer, the HOT healer, the hybrid DOT damage healer, the utility healer, the melee focus fighter-healer, the spell damage castor hybrid healer. These are all healer kits that fulfill healing fantasy types - not simply 1 or 2 spells that somewhat deviate a core healbot toolkit. Through MMO's offering this agency of choice in a variety of healing classes, it offers a variety of ways for a player to fulfill their desired healing kit fantasy. The resto druid would be incredibly fun to someone that would choose to make that class fantasy their "main" while the same player would feel a holy paladin as the last class fantasy in a game they would want to play. I am worried about this lack of choice not only hurting the Cleric Archetype but AoC's group dynamics as a whole, which will incredibly lean on the Cleric Archetype more so then any other archetype in the game.
Ashes has 1 healing archetype, and while it may be possible to implement some of the above into your niche gameplay, you are fundamentally limited into how much of the above you can incorporate regardless of your sub class and your augments. On top of that - while the Cleric showcase was a good take on a healer - I think most people would agree it pales in comparison to both Ranger and Fighter, if not the Mage as well. I see a variety of engaging heal abilities in the cleric's kit, which is great. However it lacks an incredible amount of both utility and offensive abilities from both a castor and especially melee focus. If the cleric archetype only offers anecdotal abilities to support these additional healing kits of player healing fantasy builds, then healing in ashes will fail because there are no additional classes that can fill those desired roles. I hope AoC recognizes the need to offer a diversity of choice within the cleric toolkit even at the risk of more deviation through subclasses compared to other classes because it is absolutely needed in order to support group dynamics of all classes as a whole.
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Comments
Typically, the Trinity is Tank, Healer, Support, I think.
In RPGs, typical Party is Melee, Healer, Mage, (Traps/Scout/Crits)
In MMORPGs, typical Party is Tank, Healer, Mage, DPS
With Ashes, Classes mean every character in an 8-person group could be some form of Cleric.
The trinity is tank, dps, and healer.
My experience is that certain players definitely have preferences as to what type of healer they play. So the question is whether cleric augments will be so well crafted they can provide a variety to match the full class-spec preferences like Healadin, Resto, and Disc?
The same could be said for tank. I loved tanking blood, vengeance, and prot (pally & warrior) - and could not stand bear and brew.
I hope so.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
WoW has seven healers, Ashes has eight healers - the eight archetypes mixed with healer primary.
To the OP, while what you are saying is true, keep in mind the ratios of the trinity in this game vs something like WoW.
In WoW, a tank and a healer can run 3 DPS through content. In Ashes, a tank and a healer can run 6 DPS through content.
I'm hoping though that for both tank and cleric, that the sub-classes provide the variety of tank and healing options that you normally get in other fully fledged classes in other games.
Something like this:
cleric/tank - adds a bubble to your heals that absorbs future damage
cleric/rogue - adds hots to your heals
cleric/ranger - increases chance of critical heal
cleric/mage - increase aoe effects of heals
cleric/cleric - increases healing amount
cleric/bard - gives target a damage increase
cleric/fighter - increases healing power of follow up heals on target
cleric/summoner - pet that also heals your target
I love healing and with the different weapons with specialization and augments i think they have a good creative foundation to build something great.
I don't think that is the way they will go. I think it is more likely that this kind of benefit will come from weapons, maybe religions/guild options. Augments/subclasses I think will add something from the subtype, so a pet from the summoner could be part of it and may heal and do damage.
I think the bard will provide spells to manipulate mana; the rogue will provide escape-ability and stealth, and so on.
I am interested in what they do with cleric/cleric, tank/tank and so on though because they have to be pretty good, to make them a viable choice.
IE: the Cleric primary is the only archetype that can provide a full strength healing service, but say 2x Cleric secondaries could split the same amount of group healing between them.
IF *
the Cleric is the SAME. KIND. of. Healer. like in WoW. VANILLA. before Burning Crusade and before Healers became almost INVINCIBLE, then Yes.
IF *
the Cleric you mean should be able to fend off, survive - and attack/overcome Three to "FOUR DAMAGE DEALERS" highest Efforts at once,
then no. F~everything. Fuck this. Quite and Crash the Game before it becomes another "WoW". Before it becomes another World of WoW-Token Craft.
Overpowered Healers begone.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
The absolute Boldness and Arrogance in this Title alone ... .... ... ... ...
... ... ... ... while i can not act like i don't see any Point - it sounds SO. BAD. when i remember what happened in World of WoW-Token-Craft ... ... ...
Healers ?
FXXX Healers is what i "ALMOST" want to say.
I am so f~in tired and done with "Healers" who decide the whole Battle ... ... ...
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
But if there is one thing that will cause me to not be a Cleric, it would be if I cannot survive or kill same-level mobs when I'm by myself. My preference is to spec heavier into damage, even if I lose some healing and am not the healing meta.
In a perfect world, I would like to have multiple specs that I can switch between. As I have stated on this forum in the past, I really want a viable Cleric dps spec. I would like to be able to swap specs and have 3 distinct builds: dps, healer, and solo/blend. I would probably run as a healer 80% of the time, but would like to mix it up sometimes.
I personally think Intrepid will deliver a diverse set of healer playstyle options via the Secondary augments. I think they fully understand the need to appeal to different playstyles and will do just that.
I've met some healers that couldn't - but it wasn't the fault of the game.
Me too. There's a fair bit of talk at the moment about the 64 classes being a meme, but my personal bet is that secondary archetypes are going to be more effective than many expect.
No offence but the only arrogance i've seen in this thread I started to get constructive conversation going, is yours. I'm not sure how you interpret my post on giving the player base a diversity of choice in healing options, to making clerics overpowered. This thread is about fulfilling class fantasy for potential healers in the game and not about power tuning.
However, you are obviously very angry about healers in general, if not life in general - i'm just not sure what that has to do with my post. I suggest perhaps taking a break from posting and step away from the keyboard.
Also, proper sentence formation and punctuation is your friend, as well as everyone elses that has to read your comments, whether they want to or not.
Everquest.
As to the OP.
I do hope that the secondary archetypes add enough of a change to the primary cleric archetype that it will be able to fulfill the preferences of as many "healer mains" as possible.
I think the best part about healers in WoW, EverQuest, and others; is that they are capable of healing, and most can heal well, but they are able to adapt to every situation differently. While the cleric (EQ) or priest (WoW) were arguably the strongest main healer in their respective games, Druids/Shamans (EQ) and Druids/Paladins/Shamans (WoW) were very capable of healing yet they were individually clearly their own class.
I hope that there is a noticeable difference between the Cleric primary / <insert secondary> archetypes, not only in what their skills do, but how the class feels, its role in solo/group/raid/pvp play, and its capabilities.
agree with almost all of this, the main concern i have is, in the current state, as someone that enjoys healing, The cleric does not look fun to play , in my opinion it looks clustered and has way to many abilities, would need literally 30 key binds for spells that all seem to do the same thing, they need to add more reaction based gameplay, spells giving procs for insta casts off crits or something along those lines, and if we are only getting one healer class, they need to be able to spec into different healer roles, For example, hots, mobility, tank healing, pvp healing etc. I am worried that the secondary classes will not give enough flavor to really change up how the class is played, i don't think a cleric will turn into a druid or a shaman as we know them just based on a secondary archetype.
The cleric in alpha 1 was a great example of what a healer class should be, hots, dps, mobility, obviously it was way overtuned and healers should not be 1v5 in pvp but being able to solo dps, solo heal, move whilst healing are all things that make playing healer enjoyable and i feel like they have gone in the oppisite direction of this in the latest cleric show case. I would guess as time goes on we will get more heal classes in expansions but as of right now i agree the fighter / mage/ ranger all look alot more fun to play
azkalon is always roleplaying
I feel peeps are really going to be let down when the understand that there are NOT 9001 classes. There are 8 "archetypes" that you can spice up with a secondary.
A secondary of Cleric on a Ranger is not going to make a Ranger shoot healing arrows, nor is it going to transform a DPS main into a support main.
I don't understand how people can still carry on with this silliness.
edit:
Ashes wiki: The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[14]
So an 8 man of Rangers with secondary as Cleric aren't getting new Healing Arrows.
This also works for the tank, although the tanks level of responsibility in a party is usually a bit higher than the healers, so it's harder to swap into that role.
I'd expect that most groups would actually want one healer and an off-healer too, even in PvE, if heal aggro is at all large. And two full healers in PvP.
I actually do expect "healing arrows" from a Ranger/Cleric. But just one, on a cooldown. And if not that, definitely healing traps. But you're right that a Ranger/Cleric won't be a support main. It'll be an off-healer at best. Or someone with a good emergency heal.
You are the only one who mentioned Healing Arrows as far as I know.
That being said... Cleric does have a Life School of Augments.
I'm pretty sure Steven's on the record saying that only Clerics and Tanks would be able to Main-heal and Main-tank. If they are not going to allow augments to drastically alter the sub-class for these 2 archetypes to fill class fantasy's for clerics and tanks, I hope they revisit this and allow Summoner's the capability to both main heal and main tank as a Necromancer and Brood Warden. Additionally it would make sense to allow the Soulweaver to main heal and the Dreadnaught to main tank.
Steven has said Secondary Archetype can dramatically change your character's role and your active abilities.
16:40
If Secondary Archetype can change your role, that's sounds like a distinct class rather than "spicing up" the primary archetype.
My prediction is that in some cases it will be more dramatic than others, and in some cases dramatic enough to change the character's role.
As compelling as your feelings are, I give more credence to Steven's comments.
EDIT:
Also, regarding the wiki page you linked, the fact that the secondary archetype doesn't provide additional skills is moot when, "Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class," to quote your wiki link.
- just not enough to replace the need for each of the 8 Primary Archetypes in an 8-person group.
But, truly, we are at the Show Don't Tell point.
Similar to the the way the summoner/ranger is likely to summon archers and be an RDPS, or a summoner/rogue is likely to have stabby summons and deliver MDPS.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)