NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » bruh... don't tell me you never had macros of the enemies doombringer sand the whole command channel of dozens if not hundreds of people wouldn't target the same dude to kill him during barakiel or epic bosses fight. Yes, we did, but like I said raid situations were way rarer than group vs group situations. So hearing Steven say "when it comes to groups..." - I think about group pvp, not raid pvp. Depraved wrote: » party vs party not so much. think about it logically, the game is made so that 1 healer can keep a party alive. if party vs party you get one shotted, then whats the point of healer? all you gonna do is revive then? Well, "revive is cheaper than a heal" Depraved wrote: » warrior and dagger are coming, you have time to react to that, use shields, aggression, etc, etc. one person gets targetted by all 4 dps? well that's 4 skills in a second, you can heal. maybe you wont be able to perma heal that but will extend that players life and hopefully your team will cc the enemies or whatever. Rogue has full stealth and warrior jumps a god damn mile and potentially from a higher point as well. So just as you asked me about the name macros, I gotta ask you: don't tell me your party never had a dagger who'd try to backstab a bishop out of stealth before the fight even started
Depraved wrote: » bruh... don't tell me you never had macros of the enemies doombringer sand the whole command channel of dozens if not hundreds of people wouldn't target the same dude to kill him during barakiel or epic bosses fight.
Depraved wrote: » party vs party not so much. think about it logically, the game is made so that 1 healer can keep a party alive. if party vs party you get one shotted, then whats the point of healer? all you gonna do is revive then?
Depraved wrote: » warrior and dagger are coming, you have time to react to that, use shields, aggression, etc, etc. one person gets targetted by all 4 dps? well that's 4 skills in a second, you can heal. maybe you wont be able to perma heal that but will extend that players life and hopefully your team will cc the enemies or whatever.
Azherae wrote: » Is Backstab a guaranteed hit in L2? All quicksearches indicate that it can just miss, but as always I ask the veterans.
Diamaht wrote: » We've been debating this for a while. I'm totally for it. SWTOR (as a current real world example) has 30 to 40 second TTK and it's awful. After the second time through a rotation it feels like a wet noodle contest. Plus with some people pushing for 30 to 40, or sometimes 60 (Jesus) second ttks it easier to start at 12 and compromise up to 20 if it's too fast.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want. Azherae wrote: » I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s. The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target? Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk. Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer. In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.
Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see 1 second happening unless certain things were together. Group has full DPS and no heals and people are standing still. If there is a moment where the gameplay has no defensive capabilities and you can't react to anything in the game they will change it until its where they want.
Azherae wrote: » I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.
Diamaht wrote: » Given the amount of time, effort and coordination that went into that initial strike, the TTK was far longer than the 6 seconds they spent using their abilities.
Diamaht wrote: » Caravans that want to avoid that, need better scouting. Good tactics are neutralized by better tactics.
Diamaht wrote: » We've been debating this for a while. I'm totally for it. SWTOR (as a current real world example) has 30 to 40 second TTK and it's awful. After the second time through a rotation it feels like a wet noodle contest.
TheDarkSorcerer wrote: » I'm against it. Will force everyone into zerg trains to survive longer. That is not fun and requires 0 skill.
NiKr wrote: » ] Cause my desire for a longer ttk comes directly from Ashes claiming to be a party game. If the ttk is super short even in 1v1 - party gameplay will be utter trash, because it's gonna be way easier to wipe your enemy (or for them to wipe you), and that's not even considering even a slightest advantage in character/build power. I understand when people dislike long 1v1s (though I still think it's a fault of the combat design, rather than the ttk itself), but I'm gonna be reaaaal curious to watch people die in mere seconds in a group vs group encounter and then complain that they couldn't even get off a single skill of theirs.
Githal wrote: » NiKr wrote: » ] Cause my desire for a longer ttk comes directly from Ashes claiming to be a party game. If the ttk is super short even in 1v1 - party gameplay will be utter trash, because it's gonna be way easier to wipe your enemy (or for them to wipe you), and that's not even considering even a slightest advantage in character/build power. I understand when people dislike long 1v1s (though I still think it's a fault of the combat design, rather than the ttk itself), but I'm gonna be reaaaal curious to watch people die in mere seconds in a group vs group encounter and then complain that they couldn't even get off a single skill of theirs. Totally agree with you, If the ttk in 1v1 is low, then the ttk in group content will be ridiculous, People just getting oneshot. You need large 1v1 ttk, to make group content good. And even it the 1v1 combat is bit boring coz the ttk is too long, Wont matter that much coz ashes will be focused on the group content
NiKr wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Given the amount of time, effort and coordination that went into that initial strike, the TTK was far longer than the 6 seconds they spent using their abilities. Then any kill I do in the future will be a 225h+++ ttk, cause I was training my character his entire life for that kill Diamaht wrote: » Caravans that want to avoid that, need better scouting. Good tactics are neutralized by better tactics. Considering how big the world will be, I don't really see how the defenders are supposed to scout all of it in hopes of finding a needle in a haystack. Diamaht wrote: » We've been debating this for a while. I'm totally for it. SWTOR (as a current real world example) has 30 to 40 second TTK and it's awful. After the second time through a rotation it feels like a wet noodle contest. Was SWTOR a solo mmo or did it heavily rely on party gameplay? Cause my desire for a longer ttk comes directly from Ashes claiming to be a party game. If the ttk is super short even in 1v1 - party gameplay will be utter trash, because it's gonna be way easier to wipe your enemy (or for them to wipe you), and that's not even considering even a slightest advantage in character/build power. I understand when people dislike long 1v1s (though I still think it's a fault of the combat design, rather than the ttk itself), but I'm gonna be reaaaal curious to watch people die in mere seconds in a group vs group encounter and then complain that they couldn't even get off a single skill of theirs.
Azherae wrote: » And even if we then considered 'well it would make 1v1 long and drawn out', if your 1v1 arena is 80% 'waiting for the next round to start' and 20% 'actual fighting, is this better? Who exactly is 'getting bored' watching a longer 1v1 Arena duel, that bothered to watch in the first place?
Diamaht wrote: » - 225h - come on, not a genuine responce
Diamaht wrote: » - The defenders need to scout their route for sure. Not the entire planet 😎
Diamaht wrote: » The issue is with how repetitive things get. You go through your rotation, then go through it again. It's such a long time scale that it's always the same. It gets lame after a while and you get tired of your class far sooner. With shorter 1v1 engagements you have to make choices. If its a group fight to have to decide what to use on what enemy.
NiKr wrote: » To me this just sounds like a bad combat design. Either a low amount of abilities and counters to them or a low variety of general counterplay available to players at any given time.
Diamaht wrote: » The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different. With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target. With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made.
NiKr wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different. With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target. With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made. Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes". If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations.
Azherae wrote: » A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different. With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target. With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made. Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes". If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations. It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly. You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about. A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type.
CROW3 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » The problem, no matter the design, is endless repetition. If you have a 30 second full rotation, thats what you will do each time. It would actually hurt you to do anything different. With a shorter engagement you have to make decisions about what to use and how hard to push on any specific target. With engagements of a long enough time scale, nothing ever changes and no decisions need to be made. Again, you just described a bad combat design I dunno what else I can say, except for "I hope we don't get that kind of shit in Ashes". If we do - yes, you will be correct and it'll all be dumb boring rotations. It's a specific style thing, I think MMO players who don't also play fighters just don't have the concepts (related to player preferences) thrown at them as quickly. You should probably get off the copium and start looking for a diff game though, NiKr. We hear the word 'rotation' used often enough now that I feel that we'd be completely foolish to assume we were getting what you're talking about. A shorter TTK is just another strong datapoint for the Modern design type. Not sure there’s enough time for a rotation. This raises another potential concern: that a shorter overall TTK means no need for set up skills, building attacks, and synergies. It could be an indicator that combat is not going to be very layered at all, but more of the slashy-slashy-stab-sparkle we’ve seen in 2023 projects. Still thinking this will be worked out in A2, but it’s a concern nonetheless.
