Battlepass in MMOs

Dygz wrote: »

Which is pretty Casual gaming time.

Thx for providing much better context, because videos don't show any of this shit and I definitely don't want to download and launch Fortnite just to look at this for one minute.

So it seems that you can get ~450k XP a week from dailies + weeklies. And milestones max out at 700k (unless there's more of them than in that screenshot?). You need just under 8mil to complete the basic BP, which means that even if you grind out all the milestones - you're still restricted by doing dailies and weeklies.

There's also bonus goals for milestones, which, I thiiink, reward ~1mil overall. And obviously all the general gameplay gets you some additional xp across your 100h of gameplay.

But judging by this screen from a year ago, milestones seem to increase in a non-linear way as well

So the grind becomes even slower the further you go, which pushes the burden of XP gain even more towards dailes and weeklies.

And yes, you keep saying that 9h/w is casual time, but again, it is only casual if you don't miss days and if you have a ton of free time on weekends if you do miss a few days of dailies. And from what I can see, bonus goal rewards also provide quite a bit of XP, but, outside of milestone bonus goals, you gotta be doing dailies and weeklies if you wanna get those bonuses. So, again, if you miss out on a good chunk of those - you're shit outta luck and gotta grind hardcore time.

In other words, I think you're viewing this from too deep of a hardcore-time player's perspective. And also from a perspective of someone who'd be willing to ONLY play one game, if they were casual. Because if they don't - they miss out on BP rewards.

Also, another question on the missing out part. You say that some cosmetics will supposedly return. How would that work in the context of a BP? Would it be a "two items per lvl slot" situation or would it just be "this is pretty much a repeat of a previous BP, in terms of rewards"? Cause if it's the former - sooner or later it'd have to be "several items per lvl slot", right? Otherwise the fomo stacks in the long term. And if it's the latter - why would players who have already gotten all of the rewards in the previous release of this BP play the game for the 3 months of the rerun?

Azherae wrote: »

So I'm going to say that Dygz is right that you're specifically not getting it.

All this questioning is my attempt to get it.

Azherae wrote: »

YouTube content is often, as Dygz says, skewed, by the fact that people who have a specific mindset, experience them a specific way, then conclude they should be done differently, better, etc. Those people are often 'not experiencing the BP as intended'.

I totally agree that quite a few videos will be clickbaity and more opinionated than is required. Which is why I've been trying to get factual info about the game. Dygz provided great info on that, which I then applied to the XP calculator and tried finding videos of people deeper into the BP progression.

And Dygz himself confirms that completing a BP requires ~100h. Except, unless I'm mistaken he was talking about BP lvl100. While paid BP has even more rewards after lvl100, so anyone who decides to purchase a BP is required to play even more.

Azherae wrote: »

Sure you can design bad versions of even these, but as much as I hate them, it's hard to argue that this approach of 'hey we'll remind you that there's stuff to do in our game' will ruin it other than maybe 'retaining players with mindsets that some don't like'.

I'm all for better pointers to content. I'd just prefer if they were more organic, on top of paid cosmetics not being gated behind dozens of hours of gameplay, even though I've already paid for them.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

So I'm going to say that Dygz is right that you're specifically not getting it.

All this questioning is my attempt to get it.

Azherae wrote: »

YouTube content is often, as Dygz says, skewed, by the fact that people who have a specific mindset, experience them a specific way, then conclude they should be done differently, better, etc. Those people are often 'not experiencing the BP as intended'.

I totally agree that quite a few videos will be clickbaity and more opinionated than is required. Which is why I've been trying to get factual info about the game. Dygz provided great info on that, which I then applied to the XP calculator and tried finding videos of people deeper into the BP progression.

And Dygz himself confirms that completing a BP requires ~100h. Except, unless I'm mistaken he was talking about BP lvl100. While paid BP has even more rewards after lvl100, so anyone who decides to purchase a BP is required to play even more.

Azherae wrote: »

Sure you can design bad versions of even these, but as much as I hate them, it's hard to argue that this approach of 'hey we'll remind you that there's stuff to do in our game' will ruin it other than maybe 'retaining players with mindsets that some don't like'.

I'm all for better pointers to content. I'd just prefer if they were more organic, on top of paid cosmetics not being gated behind dozens of hours of gameplay, even though I've already paid for them.

Those parts, I absolutely agree with and is why I'm also fairly against BPs.

There are not a lot of things BDO does well, but this is among their better ones.

MMORPGs, to some extent, 'need' padding content for the retention of players who do not care about the 'whole game'. This is the parallel to MineCraft/Terraria that you can take away from it the most.

Dygz cares about 'experiencing a story', and Dygz also seems to be self aware enough to know 'this game won't hold my attention fully if it can't provide story fast enough but I want something that makes my brain remember-want to play it'.

Organic markers to content sadly do not work as well as many people wish they did. We can be 'mad at the average human brain structure' and refuse to play along, or we can suck it up and accept Events/BattlePasses/Season Content/External Motivation Datasources from Guild/Node Leaders.

You're just talking to someone who is in the camp of approximately "I want the GAME to tell me what to do, no one else gets to dictate my time."

Azherae wrote: »

The only way a BP affects Ashes negatively based on that, is if they move real content out of it, which isn't a thing that modern BPs do.

I disagree.

Ashes have stated that DLC will cost nothing more than the subscription cost of the game.

Them then releasing paid for tasks that are not a part of the games subscription is them going against what they have said.

You can argue that the tasks aren't "real content", but you wouldn't win an argument in regards to whether it would technically be dowloadable content - it very obviously is.

If Steven were to decide that he actually was going to go back on what has been stated in this regard, that he was going to add paid for content in the form of battlepass, then why can't he then also go back on other things he has said, like to pay to win in the cash shop, or reselling past cosmetics?

If they decided that since it was only "minor" content in a battlepass it was fine - that would be a real hit to their reputation. What's to then stop them only adding "minor" pay to win items in the cash shop? It is the same argument.

If Intrepid set the standard of "no paid for DLC", then it is on Intrepid to stick to that. The tasks above, as bullshit as they are, technically are content (not content I would ever want or ever play), Intrepid have already said no to charging for it.

What if we had a "rumor board" in node taverns. A player can "subscribe" to it and the board will dm that player an interactable list of activities on login.

And those activities are gathered from players who went out to find stuff on their own. And these players can contribute info about their exploration for cosmetic currency (that is, MORE currency than other means of acquisition).

That info would be smth along the lines of "starting npc; general requirements (if any); length of gameplay; reward". And if we ever have quests/tasks that have a cycling reward structure (potentially based on seasons/weather/whatever) - the info would include that stuff as well.

The reward for submitting info would probably be either purely first come first serve, or at least have diminishing returns on subsequent submissions of the same info.

Do you think this could appeal to the BP wanters? And, Dygz, would a system like this interest you in an mmo, as a BP replacement (I'm not talking about Ashes here)?

NiKr wrote: »

So the grind becomes even slower the further you go, which pushes the burden of XP gain even more towards dailes and weeklies.

Nope. Again...
The Main Battlepass is 80K XP to reach the next Stage for all Levels.
I finished the LEGO Rebel Battlepass in 2 weeks and then the the Main Battlepass 3 days later.
It was not a grind because I was the Tasks I chose were quick and easy to do while also mostly focused on doing stuff I like to do in the game.

NiKr wrote: »

And yes, you keep saying that 9h/w is casual time, but again, it is only casual if you don't miss days and if you have a ton of free time on weekends if you do miss a few days of dailies. And from what I can see, bonus goal rewards also provide quite a bit of XP, but, outside of milestone bonus goals, you gotta be doing dailies and weeklies if you wanna get those bonuses. So, again, if you miss out on a good chunk of those - you're shit outta luck and gotta grind hardcore time.

LMAO
You keep trying to math it in a way that fits your claim without actually playing it.
I told you already that the Weeklies are more important than the Dailies. And the Weeklies don't disappear if you miss them. And a set of Weekly Tasks only takes about 20 minutes to complete.
There really is no such thin as "missing a chunk" unless you literally try to play the final 2 weeks out of 3 months. But even then.... you can just go do the Dailies and Weeklies an Milestones and free Battlepasses in the other Game Modes... they all contribute to the Main Battlepass.
You complete some BP Tasks just by logging into the other Game Modes of Fortnite.
"Try Rocket Racing" - I completed that Task just by hopping in and then hopping back out before the Race started.

It is not a grind to hop into the BR, emote before you parachute down to the map and then hop out 10 times.
That takes 10 minutes and then I can move on to a different BR Task.
"Thank The Bus Driver" 0/10 Stage 1 of 20
If I had to Kill 200 Enemies in the BP - that might feel like a grind to me because I don't like to PvP very much.
But, I can play the BR, ignore all the Kill Tasks and still easily complete the BR.
Instead I could do Tasks like "Drive Two Different Types of Cars in One Match" and at the same time complete "Travel Distance In a Vehicle 5K" Stage 1of 20

NiKr wrote: »

In other words, I think you're viewing this from too deep of a hardcore-time player's perspective. And also from a perspective of someone who'd be willing to ONLY play one game, if they were casual. Because if they don't - they miss out on BP rewards.

It's not about my perspective.
It's about you not understanding how modern BPs work and then trying to find flaws so you can still think they suck.
The only time modern BPs have fomo is if you start them the last 2-4 weeks out of 12 weeks.
You can skip many weeks worth of Dailies and still complete the Main Fortnite Battlepass.
That's even just by only playing the LEGO Fortnite Tasks or only playing the BR Tasks.
Especially because if you jump in to the game on Week 10 of 12 - you will still have Week 1- Week 9 waiting for you. And that would take you maybe 3 hours maximum to complete - though probably less because some of those Tasks Stack.
But, even if thought for some reason that you needed/wanted a bunch of Dailies - you could do the Dailies (and Weeklies) in the other Game Modes and quickly rack up a bunch of XP for the Main Battlepass.

NiKr wrote: »

Also, another question on the missing out part. You say that some cosmetics will supposedly return. How would that work in the context of a BP? Would it be a "two items per lvl slot" situation or would it just be "this is pretty much a repeat of a previous BP, in terms of rewards"? Cause if it's the former - sooner or later it'd have to be "several items per lvl slot", right? Otherwise the fomo stacks in the long term. And if it's the latter - why would players who have already gotten all of the rewards in the previous release of this BP play the game for the 3 months of the rerun?

I mean... some rewards on the BP are vbucks. There is always one slot for 100 vbucks on each of the 14 Pages of the Main Battlepass.

As I said, Battlepasses come with a Story Chapter.
I think there was a Marvel Comics Story Chapter in 2020, 2023 and another one in 2024.
Battlepass typically comes with 14 Skins - 7 of them are base/original skins and 7 of them are variants.
Of the 7 base/original Marvel Skins on the 2024 Battlepass, 5 might be brand new, 1 might be from the 2020 BP, 1 might be from the 2023 BP. And then each of those 7 would have a variant that matches the theme of the Season. Like, in the current Wasteland BP, which is a mix of Mad Max + Fallout, there is a Wasteland Magneto variant.
Also, the BP Skins from years earlier ocassionally rotate into the Item Shop.
It's not going to be the entire BP returns. Rather it's going to be that some of the items may return in a future BP with the same theme or some of the items may appear in the Item Shop after many months or 2+ years.

I dunno what you're trying to say by "the fomo stacks".
I've told you before that in Fortnite, the BP has very little fomo. There might be some if you drop in the final few weeks of the 12 week Season.
In Fortnite, the fomo is all in the Item Shop. Because those items rotate in and out daily. And there's no way to anticipate which ones might stay multiple days and which ones will only stay one day. Some of them will rotate back in every month, but when you first see them - there's no telling when you might see them again.
I mean some of the holiday Skins you can anticipate seeing every year, sure.

Dygz wrote: »

It's about you not understanding how modern BPs work and then trying to find flaws so you can still think they suck.

The main flaw to me is that it takes 100h for me to get the stuff I paid for (even more, if we're talking lvl200 stuff).

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno what you're trying to say by "the fomo stacks".

I was talking about the possibility of several items being rewarded per BP lvl slot. Obviously that's not the case so this doesn't matter.

As for the fomo, to me, waiting months if not years for a theoretical rerun of a cosmetic is fomo being belief. Because you never know what might happen to you or to the game in the meantime. If you can't play at the exact moment the rerun happens - you've completely missed out on enjoying that cosmetic for several years. If the game goes away before the rerun - you've still missed out, but just on a smaller time scale.

I'm glad that you don't see long periods of time of not enjoying something as "missing out", but I personally do.

Azherae wrote: »

You're just talking to someone who is in the camp of approximately "I want the GAME to tell me what to do, no one else gets to dictate my time."

No. I'm not really interested in playing a game.
I'm interested in RPing through a story. So, yes, I want the Story to continue telling a story with new adventures - typically via Quests. BP Tasks are close enough to Quests which provide rewards.
Typically, Quests run out at Endgame. And I'm going to be done with the story after I've played through it 4 or 5 times from different character perspectives - especially if I'm always receiving the exact same rewards from the exact same quests.
A BP doesn't really tell me what to do - it just gives me a large list of things to do while moving me closer to rewards I want. But I still choose what I want to do. The game doesn't choose for me.

Usually, I hit Endgame and I'm looking for new Quests/New stories and/or new reasons to do stuff.
BPs offer that since they are basically mini Expansions that drop quarterly - and they offer the type of items I prefer - which lend more towards Story/RP than they do function/power.
The new Quests and content that drop with a new Season is typically around 20-30 hours. I'd probably be done with that after 20-60 hours. A BP could keep me playing for about 100 hours.

Again, Nodes are technically supposed to cause enough dynamic change that BPs would be unnecessary.
Ashes is not supposed to have an Endgame.
But, also, Ashes is supposed to have Seasonal DLCs, so I expect the form of the Seasonal DLC will be a BP.
Though it doesn't really matter to me because I would be ignoring an Ashes BP in any case.

Dygz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're just talking to someone who is in the camp of approximately "I want the GAME to tell me what to do, no one else gets to dictate my time."

No. I'm not really interested in play a game.
I'm interested in RPing through a story. So, yes, I want the Story to continue telling a story with new adventures - typically via Quests. BP Tasks are close enough to Quests which provide rewards.

In other words, you want paid for DLC, which Steven has specifically said will not be a thing in Ashes.

That's basically it to me. Either you are asking for battlepass in a way that it is content - which is a no-go, or you are asking for battlepass in a way that isn't content - in which case, why?

If a battlepass could do as effective a job at keeping people in the game as you say, then that content should be a part of the games regular content updates that are a part of our subscription. However, now we are in that realm of daily tasks which players have already said we don't want, so battlepass would need to be implemented in a way where that isn't happening.

Fact is, what keeps people in a game is content. Developers just need to add more content. Fortnite and WoW both do a horrid job of adding more content (their shareholders do not allow them to put enough developers on new content for the games in question). Battlepass/season pass is simply a means by which to keep people in their games via the least amount of work possible.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're just talking to someone who is in the camp of approximately "I want the GAME to tell me what to do, no one else gets to dictate my time."

No. I'm not really interested in play a game.

I'm highlighting this part moreso as a 'clarity point' than because I have any disagreement with it or ignored the other stuff you said.

The wordings that the rest of us use don't seem to match yours (and I'm not asking you to change either, just noting it for those who read my posts).

And the quoted line is the primary reason why they don't seem to match.

NiKr wrote: »

And Dygz himself confirms that completing a BP requires ~100h. Except, unless I'm mistaken he was talking about BP lvl100. While paid BP has even more rewards after lvl100, so anyone who decides to purchase a BP is required to play even more.

Jesus
No.
Sure. It takes about 100 hours to reach BP Level 100.
As I said, I hit BP Level 5 in 45 minutes. So there is not a 1-1 correlation as if it's always 1 Level per 1 hour.

You travel down the paid BP at the same time you travel down the free one.
If I had paid for the APOC Legendary Path, I would get a paid reward at every Stage and a free reward every even-numbered Stage. When I hit Stage 4, I would get both the free and paid rewards.

For the LEGO Fortnite Rebel Pass:
It takes 11K Studs to complete the BP.
At 2K Studs, I would have unlocked 2 items on the free path and 2 items on the paid path.
Notice that this BP began May 3. I completed it in 14 days. There are still 56 days left.

On the previous Main BP....
I reached Level 100, but I only claimed 94/100 Items on the BP.
Because I did not have to claim every single reward to get the final one - Zeus.
In order to unlock the 2 Pages of Bonus Rewards (total of 10 rewards), you have to first claim all 100/100 Items on the Main BP.
(I'm currently Level 16, but I've claimed 19 Items)

NiKr wrote: »

I'm all for better pointers to content. I'd just prefer if they were more organic, on top of paid cosmetics not being gated behind dozens of hours of gameplay, even though I've already paid for them.

I mean...well, the "price" of getting those items dirt cheap, at a massive discount (or for FREE if it's the free path), is doing stuff in the game that you mostly already like to do - for 100 hours.
With a BP, you get at least 5x the value of one purchase from the Cosmetics Shop.

Dygz wrote: »

Jesus
No.

I've checked several sources and they all say that you get more stuff if you get to lvl200, if you have a paid BP. Is that no longer true?

Dygz wrote: »

I mean...well, the "price" of getting those items dirt cheap, at a massive discount (or for FREE if it's the free path), is doing stuff in the game that you mostly already like to do - for 100 hours.
With a BP, you get at least 5x the value of one purchase from the Cosmetics Shop.

I'll be playing the game for 100h either way. But if I'm paying for something, I want it now, unless it's a preorder. Do you consider BP to be a "preorder" of cosmetics?

And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.

If there's 10 cosmetics in the paid BP and the BP costs $10, that means that the company values their dev time of making one cosmetic at $1. So any other cosmetic of similar quality should also cost one dollar. Anything else is a scam.

Any free cosmetic is included in the sub cost of the game, just as other in-game rewards are, and I fully expect their quality to be less than that of the paid ones (even if Steven claims that they won't be).

It's obvious that you're fine with paying way more for something that costs way less, but I am personally not.

NiKr wrote: »

Anything else is a scam.

What?

A scam?

From Epic Games?

Surely you jest!

Noaani wrote: »

From Epic Games?

Surely you jest!

Yeah, they gonna start selling bridges soon. Will make even more billions for sure

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

From Epic Games?

Surely you jest!

Yeah, they gonna start selling bridges soon. Will make even more billions for sure

Dygz will by one, if it has a story.

NiKr wrote: »

I've checked several sources and they all say that you get more stuff if you get to lvl200, if you have a paid BP. Is that no longer true?

I did originally think I remebered the cap was 200. But that did not seem to be the case for the BP that ended a week ago. Might be that it jumps to 200 once you get 100/100 Items on the Main Path and Unlock the Bonus Path.
But the Bonus Rewards do not unlock just for reaching Level 100. I'll triple check that for you once I unlock the Bonus Rewards on the current BP.
I just didn't want any of the Bonus Rewards so...

NiKr wrote: »

I'll be playing the game for 100h either way. But if I'm paying for something, I want it now, unless it's a preorder. Do you consider BP to be a "preorder" of cosmetics?

I don't understand what you mean. That's like saying if you're paying a subscription, you should get all of the BiS Gear and other rewards in the game without doing any Quests or Dungeons or Raids.
I don't consider BP to be a "preorder".
I consider BP Tasks to be mini-quests.

NiKr wrote: »

And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.

Clearly you do care about the cost of things since you are complaining about the cost of things.
I kinda already think most of the Items in the Intrepid Store are too expensive without a BP - so if I can get a bunch at a discount with a BP, I will run the BP instead of paying for stuff in the Store.
Which is exactly what I do with NW and WoW.

NiKr wrote: »

If there's 10 cosmetics in the paid BP and the BP costs $10, that means that the company values their dev time of making one cosmetic at $1. So any other cosmetic of similar quality should also cost one dollar. Anything else is a scam.

Without a BP, the cheapest Item in the Store is going to be $5. Most are going to be $10+.
Mounts cost $20. For WoW and for the Ashes Shop. I'm probably not going to buy more Mounts for that price.
But, if I can pay 2 Mounts for playing the free track of a BP - in addition to a bunch of other rewards, I will play the free path of the BP.
And if I can pay $10 to also get 4 Mounts plus 1 Flying Mount Skin on the paid path, I will happily pay $10 to get 7 Mounts plus a bunch of other rewards for half the price of 1 Mount in the Shop.
No one is going to force you to go for the discounted items if you don't want to.

NiKr wrote: »

Any free cosmetic is included in the sub cost of the game, just as other in-game rewards are, and I fully expect their quality to be less than that of the paid ones (even if Steven claims that they won't be).

It's obvious that you're fine with paying way more for something that costs way less, but I am personally not.

I mean... yes... there's not going to be free cosmetics without a BP.
If there is BP with a free path then the Cosmetics on that path would be discounted to free during the time they are available on the BP. And they will be included with the price of the subscription.
I'm fine with taking advantage of discounts for stuff I'd like to purchase.

I would say that the free Skins will be less ornate and less flashy the the paid Skins.
Whether an individual considers less ornate and less flashy to be lower quality when it comes to Ashes items is going to be subjective.
If I recall correctly, there were several sets of gear on the free path that I prefered over the Legendary Path gear.

Dygz wrote: »

I don't understand what you mean. That's like saying if you're paying a subscription, you should get all of the BiS Gear and other rewards in the game without doing any Quests or Dungeons or Raids.
I don't consider BP to be a "preorder".
I consider BP Tasks to be mini-quests.

Subscription buys you access to the game. So when the game is out, I'd expect to get that access as soon as I pay for it, rather than waiting for a hundred hours before getting it.

Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... yes... there's not going to be free cosmetics without a BP.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics

Equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means.[5][6] Cosmetics achievable in-game will be on-par, and in the case of legendary skins, even more elaborate than shop items.[7][8][2]

There will be legendary cosmetics that are only achievable in-game that will never be offered in the cosmetic shop.[7][8][2]

Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

You're just talking to someone who is in the camp of approximately "I want the GAME to tell me what to do, no one else gets to dictate my time."

No. I'm not really interested in play a game.

I'm highlighting this part moreso as a 'clarity point' than because I have any disagreement with it or ignored the other stuff you said.

The wordings that the rest of us use don't seem to match yours (and I'm not asking you to change either, just noting it for those who read my posts).

And the quoted line is the primary reason why they don't seem to match.

Even if he says he doesn't play the game, if it has an ocean like AoC then he will not participate.

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

From Epic Games?

Surely you jest!

Yeah, they gonna start selling bridges soon. Will make even more billions for sure

Dygz will by one, if it has a story.

Not if is close to the ocean.

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.

Clearly you do care about the cost of things since you are complaining about the cost of things.
I kinda already think most of the Items in the Intrepid Store are too expensive without a BP - so if I can get a bunch at a discount with a BP, I will run the BP instead of paying for stuff in the Store.
Which is exactly what I do with NW and WoW.

You cannot say BPs are good because they are cheaper than the same things they put up to sell at a higher price without BP.
This strategy exists for real products too not only virtual items.
That is called price anchoring or decoy pricing.