Battlepass in MMOs

State your opinion, I'll start with mine

They're dumb they are meant for repetitive games like shooters, they give you something to do in a games that are arena pvp weather it be a MOBA or Shooter. MMOs are supposed to keep you busy. adding chores on top of that for things I should just be able to work for tends to leave a bad taste in mouth.

Also the monetization of it is kind of dumb as well. FFXIV and WoW have raked in large amounts of money just doing cosmetics on the shop, do that without the predatory fear of missing out.

One other argument for me was when I was playing NW I wanted to support the game, I bought up dyes and emotes and spent more money on that game then I have any other game as far as cosmetics, I supported it because it was simple and clean way for them to make extra money. I stopped giving them my money after they started doing the battlepass. It even made me not care about collecting all the emotes anymore. It wasn't even to protest, I just stopped caring.

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Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to be expecting the prices of skin in AoC to be 10$+ and not 1$ or below. With maybe some 3-5 dollar exceptions for tiny none detailed stuff.

But you're completely fine with insanely cheap cosmetics, just only if they're gated behind 100h of gameplay? How is that logical?

Mag7spy wrote: »

And not be cycling a board with tons of free cosmetics constantly. That doesn't make any sense to me its either being monetized (in some form battle pass and/or store) or being gear in game that drops from monsters/ etc.

Again, the board only points towards content. It has no relation to cosmetics or whatever.

In my suggestion cosmetics do not cycle. They simply get added to the store. You get cosmetic currency and buy said cosmetics from that store. The irl money cosmetics also simply get added to the store, at the same prices as BP's cosmetics would cost if sold separately (on top of the more expensive intricate cosmetics).

No fomo, direct purchases, super low costs (just as the BP cosmetics), no changes to player gameplay, no forced gameplay, full player choice of what cosmetic they want to get and when.

How is that worse than the BP and why would you prefer a BP over that?

Its very logical because you have a whole season to do it, that is multiple months depending on their time frame for seasons. And as the season gets further in the time to finish becomes faster as you have more options to get xp if you are trying to min max.

If you are playing a game you aren't going to be really counting hours until you get a skin. You are going to be playing the game and getting rewards along the way.

Getting free money is always a great so people don't need to spend money. Though this is the kind of system that i would see being a grind. And again why the BP method is better since playing the game gives general xp which levels up battle pass. Over going to a bored and grinding out test for minimal currency. I may as well go fill out surveys .

I've said this multiple of times this is a business at the end of the day, its going to make sense for whatever their objectives are. Your solution doesn't sound great for the player, and i feel a business would go with what already works being a BP if they so decided to do one.

BP also gives more control over what is being given out, over a board that would cause frustration if they changed that whole system (and i really don't think they need to add another system).

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

They never apparently made much money from it, because ED, like Ashes, is not structured for what you're talking about, and would probably have done better with a BattlePass. That's my opinion, though.

Just another proof that I'm a boomer who's stuck in the past then. Wanting a non-predatory, non-exploitative, consumer-friendly feature is useless, because people are more willing to be exploited by a predator than having a better experience.

Brainwashing working as intended, I guess.

Azherae wrote: »

An MMORPG with a structure that would make a BattlePass unnecessary would be a great idea. Maybe we will even get one someday.

If Riot ever finish their mmo, that might be the way they go. If Gaben decided to make one, there'd be a high chance they went that way too.

At this point I'm relatively sure neither of those things will happen And I'm 100% sure that neither of those games would interest me, so if Ashes does ultimately go with a BP, I'll just suffer through it and hope that it makes Intrepid enough money to not turn the game into a p2w shitshow.

What?!?!?! Why are you talking about riot of all companies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NQyxhtWMN0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGjXIpDBbk

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Though this is the kind of system that i would see being a grind. And again why the BP method is better since playing the game gives general xp which levels up battle pass. Over going to a bored and grinding out test for minimal currency. I may as well go fill out surveys .

I'll say this as clear as possible. I'm proposing the same fucking thing as the BP. You do whatever you want in the game - you get currency, just as you get XP for the BP.

Except in my suggestion the person can choose which cosmetic they want first, instead of a BP system where you have to wait until your BP levels up to the point of your preferred cosmetic.

The entire mechanic is entirely the same on the player's side.

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP also gives more control over what is being given out, over a board that would cause frustration if they changed that whole system (and i really don't think they need to add another system).

BP only points out content in the game. My board does literally the same damn thing. You log into the game and the BP says "you gonna get 300 XP if you pick up 5 flowers". The board would do the same.

If the bulletin board tasks are the same for everyone - the rumor board would have those tasks as well, so the subscriber would know what tasks there are on their login.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

What?!?!?! Why are you talking about riot of all companies...

Yeah, they've apparently gone to shit lately, just as the entire industry has. They've been the go-to example of good monetization in the past.

All the more reason for Intrepid to NOT use all the bullshit that's trendy in the industry right now. By the time the game comes out Ashes would stand out in the best way possible.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Though this is the kind of system that i would see being a grind. And again why the BP method is better since playing the game gives general xp which levels up battle pass. Over going to a bored and grinding out test for minimal currency. I may as well go fill out surveys .

I'll say this as clear as possible. I'm proposing the same fucking thing as the BP. You do whatever you want in the game - you get currency, just as you get XP for the BP.

Except in my suggestion the person can choose which cosmetic they want first, instead of a BP system where you have to wait until your BP levels up to the point of your preferred cosmetic.

The entire mechanic is entirely the same on the player's side.

Mag7spy wrote: »

BP also gives more control over what is being given out, over a board that would cause frustration if they changed that whole system (and i really don't think they need to add another system).

BP only points out content in the game. My board does literally the same damn thing. You log into the game and the BP says "you gonna get 300 XP if you pick up 5 flowers". The board would do the same.

If the bulletin board tasks are the same for everyone - the rumor board would have those tasks as well, so the subscriber would know what tasks there are on their login.

So then say you are fine with a BP and you want different functionality in progression. And we can talk about what makes sense for that part.

That would be up to IS and their purpose and how they want to approach it. Personally I believer you can't just get to the best part of the fruit and skip the rest. There should be a balance. I liked the concept of the wayfinder one where you got to pick where you went on the board (so like a skill tree kind of thing) technically you can fast track towards the items you want and skip of bunch of other things.

At the same time i don't really expect if IS does a battle pass to try to redefine anything and just have things being standard. As you already have the traditional gearing system in game and the BP wouldn't be p2w. So they might want people putting in those 100 hours. Or coming later on during the battle pass with some element of fomo though it takes them like 20-40 hours to finish it since they have more options to get xp.

Granted again they can just have it so BP doesn't go away but you can only have one active which makes the most sense to me.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Granted again they can just have it so BP doesn't go away but you can only have one active which makes the most sense to me.

And not having one makes the most sense to me

I don't want a BP. I want an mmo with good rewards, that's it.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Granted again they can just have it so BP doesn't go away but you can only have one active which makes the most sense to me.

And not having one makes the most sense to me I don't want a BP. I want an mmo with good rewards, that's it.

You can have both.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can have both.

GrilledCheeseMojito

Well, I'm glad ARX and non-paid BPs were brought up before I even got here. That was going to be my contribution. I see so many people log in just for dailies and while I'm still philosophically against it, I understand that for a whole lot of players that bit of extra motivation is all it takes.

Hopefully there's something else that gets figured out in the next ~13 pages.

Ludullu

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

Hopefully there's something else that gets figured out in the next ~13 pages.

The only thing we'll figure out is that we've gone through the 10th circle of the same arguments and statements, w/o stepping to either side of the discussion.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

Hopefully there's something else that gets figured out in the next ~13 pages.

The only thing we'll figure out is that we've gone through the 10th circle of the same arguments and statements, w/o stepping to either side of the discussion.

Don't worry we can do new circles tomorrow.

Edit* I'm sensing things will be controversial

GrilledCheeseMojito

NiKr wrote: »

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

Hopefully there's something else that gets figured out in the next ~13 pages.

The only thing we'll figure out is that we've gone through the 10th circle of the same arguments and statements, w/o stepping to either side of the discussion.

Yeah, we both know that, but one can hope, right?

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Don't worry we can do new circles tomorrow.

Edit* I'm sensing things will be controversial

Yeah, I feel like the stream will be reaaaaal spicy.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

And I already said, the 100h in 3 months is only casual if the person can play every day, which for quite a lot of people is not casual enough.

You say that but it's meaningless. 9 hours per week is Casual Time.
If they don't want to do more than 9 hours per week they don't have to finish the BP if they don't want to.
Anf they don't have to purchase the paid BP if they don't want to.
And... if it's like WoW, they would still be able to get the items they want in later BPs.

NiKr wrote: »

So your entire argument so far has been "BPs make Intrepid more money", but now you're telling a person who's willing to upkeep the sub and purchase cosmetics to "not play the game". You're literally ok with denying Intrepid money, just so you can keep saying that BPs are worth it, even though there's a much better way to make that money.

Not really because BPs typically have a free path and a paid path.
So, he'd really be saying, "Don't pay for the paid path of the BP."
Nobody is forced to pay for the paid path of a BP.
There are a couple of other way for Intrepid to make money. Both of which will make more money than the paid path of a BP in any case.
A paid BP path is an additional method for Intrepid to make money - and it's OPTIONAL.

NiKr wrote: »

I simply want people to have a second option of purchasing the cheap BP cosmetics.

The has no purpose. No purpose whatsover. Other than the fantasies you concoct in your own mind because you don't understand how BPs actually work.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

The has no purpose. No purpose whatsover. Other than the fantasies you concoct in your own mind because you don't understand how BPs actually work.

My fantasy is to be able to buy the cosmetics I want, instead of having to play the game for 100h to get what I paid for

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

You can't meaningfully ask for a better system when don't actually understand the system you're trying to critique.

Actually, you can.

This thread is 17 pages long, NiKr has been making a solid effort to try and understand the perspective of those that want a battlepass (both of you). Yet, you still claim that he doesn't understand the system you are talking about.

That means one of two things need to be true - either you are absolutely horrible at explaining things, as in, the worst person on the planet at it, or the system is needlessly convoluted.

I'm going with the notion that the system is needlessly convoluted.

The big thing for me that I still don't get is - if the developers have the time to create a battlepass, why does it need to be it's own convoluted system? Why not simply add those shit quests to the game and have the free rewards be a part of those quests, and have the paid for rewards be on the store?

Like, the entire notion for why battlepass even needs to exist just doesn't make sense outside of obfuscating behavior that is anti-consumer.

It still just isn't needed at all, the content can just be added to the game as a part of regular updates - if that is the content Ashes players want added to the game.

The Stockholm Syndrome with you and Mag is really strong on this one - battlepass in other games has clearly taken you hard, yet you are going well out of your way to defend it.

It's actually getting to the point where the justification and arguments you guys are making are interesting - not because they are good arguments or anything, but because of how absolutely taken by this objectively horrible, anti-consumer system you guys are.

Abarat

Battle passes make sense for lobby games, not an mmo.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I'm going with the notion that the system is needlessly convoluted.

Nah, it's really straightforward. I just say it how it is, using Dygz' direct words, but they're both saying that I don't understand what I'm saying.

Dygz keeps repeating that the directly added seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP can be completed. And I say I dislike that, because if the content ran out - why must I keep playing the game. But they're so used to this system that they don't see this as a bad thing.

And on the casual side, they'll never understand a pov of a person who can't play every single day, so to them "9h a week" is super casual. And they also don't understand that "100h to complete a BP" is not casual, because 100h is a shitton of fucking time. I've seen countless posts/videos where people complain about how games these days are either super long or require players to play them for way longer than they did before.

Dygz still hasn't said if he did play for 7h a day when he cleared the BP in 2 weeks. Yes, he said "I cleared the BP in ~100h", but that's a dodge of saying "I played the game for a ton of time a day, which allowed me to complete the BP". This is not casual.

And Mag is even more fun, just saying "if you can't play the game at hardcore times, you shouldn't even play it". And it's super funny cause he's been the one who kept saying "BPs make more money for the company" and then goes a full 540 noscope on his own argument and tells people not to give Intrepid money

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm going with the notion that the system is needlessly convoluted.

Nah, it's really straightforward. I just say it how it is, using Dygz' direct words, but they're both saying that I don't understand what I'm saying.

Dygz keeps repeating that the direct added seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP can be completed. And I say I dislike that, because if the content ran out - why must I keep playing the game. But they're so used to this system that they don't see this as a bad thing.

And on the casual side, they'll never understand a pov of a person who can't play every single day, so to them "9h a week" is super casual. And they also don't understand that "100h to complete a BP" is not casual, because 100h is a shitton of fucking time. I've seen countless posts/videos where people complain about how games these days are either super long or require players to play them for way longer than they did before.

Dygz still hasn't said if he did play for 7h a day when he cleared the BP in 2 weeks. Yes, he said "I cleared the BP in 2 weeks", but that's a dodge of saying "I played the game for a ton of time a day, which allowed me to complete the BP". This is not casual.

And Mag is even more fun, just saying "if you can't play the game at hardcore times, you shouldn't even play it". And it's super funny cause he's been the one who kept saying "BPs make more money for the company" and then goes a full 540 noscope on his own argument and tells people not to give Intrepid money

No one is saying this

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz keeps repeating that the direct added seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP can be completed. And I say I dislike that, because if the content ran out - why must I keep playing the game. But they're so used to this system that they don't see this as a bad thing.

Same reason why I would need to keep playing if I want a full set of Raiding BiS Gear for my Guild.
I don't care about Raiding BiS Gear, so I stop playing after I've completed all the Quests and uncovered the entire map with 2-4 characters.

You can dislike that the content runs out in 20-30 hours. But, you are going to play for 100+ hours anyway.
Just as you (and people with your playstyle and people who like to Raid) are going to keep playing more than 100 hours after the end of a full expansion.
So you might as well get some free Cosmetics and Embers from the free path of a BP for continuing to do the stuff you like to do after the new content dries up.
And, if you want a bunch more Cosmetics at a huge Discount (rather than paying full Shop prices) and you want even more Embers - you can pay for the paid track of the BP for ~$10 which tends to be around the cheapest price of a Cosmetic in the Shop.
If you don't want to purchase the paid track of the BP - don't purchase the paid track of the BP.

NiKr wrote: »

And on the casual side, they'll never understand a pov of a person who can't play every single day, so to them "9h a week" is super casual. And they also don't understand that "100h to complete a BP" is not casual, because 100h is a shitton of fucking time. I've seen countless posts/videos where people complain about how games these days are either super long or require players to play them for way longer than they did before.

Why did you add "super"?
For MMORPGs, 7-10 hours per WEEK is Casual Time.
100 hours in 3 MONTHS is Casual Time for an MMORPG.
100 hours in 3 months is Casual Time for completing a full MMORPG Expansion once.
And, yeah, Ashes taking 45 days to hit Max Level is going to be closer to 175 hours.
Longer than the typical MMOPRG.

But... the Holy Grail of an MMORPG is that it will be a Neverending Story and the content will never end.
It's just that, with MMORPGs, gamers can race to the end of new content faster than devs can create it.

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz still hasn't said if he did play for 7h a day when he cleared the BP in 2 weeks. Yes, he said "I cleared the BP in ~100h", but that's a dodge of saying "I played the game for a ton of time a day, which allowed me to complete the BP". This is not casual.

7 hours a DAY is Hardcore Time.
7-10 hours per WEEK is Casual Time.

NiKr wrote: »

And Mag is even more fun, just saying "if you can't play the game at hardcore times, you shouldn't even play it". And it's super funny cause he's been the one who kept saying "BPs make more money for the company" and then goes a full 540 noscope on his own argument and tells people not to give Intrepid money

If you don't want to play the BP, don't play the BP.
Just as I don't Raid for BiS gear.
If you don't want to pay extra for extra stuff, don't pay money for extra stuff.
Just as I mostly ignore the NW and WoW Item Shops. And just as I only play the free paths of the NW and WoW Battlepasses.
You can ignore the free path of a Battlepass, too... you'll just still be wracking up BP XP and Cosmetic Coins (Embers, vBucks, Trader's Tender) anyway by coincidentally completing BP Tasks as you play the game.

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