Arya_Yeshe wrote: » To me, there should be only two instances where you could have any information about the state of the other player: Being in the same party as the other person Target attacked or was attacked by you or by your party The game will look much cleaner and snipping be a gamble and will bring more honest fights, only targets of interest will have some information and that's it
Diamaht wrote: » And if you attack them, you will know right away if you did anything to them. That's what health bars simulate, the knowledge you definitely have when you fight someone. I mean a real world analogy is a bit off, but even under that context you have basic info right away.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Maybe it wasn't about making correct decisions or not. How many games in the past or now uses flagging system like L2? I know only AoC so maybe it was intentional in the first place, because L2 really stood out of the crowd with it's systems. Anyway, how is wow competitive? p.s sorry for not making replies with quotes, I am incompetent for that 😐
Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Adapt? Well, you too then 🤭 We want only the pvp side from L2 (because it's being taken directly from L2). Actually, Ashes PvP is not being taken directly from L2 - it is being largely inspired by it. We are adapting that wars and castle sieges will be instanced This is factually incorrect. Don't tell me we will get castles sieges being in an open world! ?😮 This has always been the plan. They may have some small objectives that are contained within an instance, but the bulk of node wars, guild wars, node sieges and castle sieges is all set to be open world.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Adapt? Well, you too then 🤭 We want only the pvp side from L2 (because it's being taken directly from L2). Actually, Ashes PvP is not being taken directly from L2 - it is being largely inspired by it. We are adapting that wars and castle sieges will be instanced This is factually incorrect. Don't tell me we will get castles sieges being in an open world! ?😮
Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Adapt? Well, you too then 🤭 We want only the pvp side from L2 (because it's being taken directly from L2). Actually, Ashes PvP is not being taken directly from L2 - it is being largely inspired by it. We are adapting that wars and castle sieges will be instanced This is factually incorrect.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Adapt? Well, you too then 🤭 We want only the pvp side from L2 (because it's being taken directly from L2).
We are adapting that wars and castle sieges will be instanced
ArnasPanika wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP. By actually playing the game you get to know and learn how much HP approximately you will hit a target that is in a range of level 40-48, wearing a Plated Leather set, farming in an x location. Just by seeing a player you will be able to tell his approximate level, his defense or attack possibilities and how many Hurricane spells he would withstand from you if he would be an attack dummy and wouldn't heal himself. All information is in front of you. By finding a player hunting in a specific zone and farming a specific mob you will know what level is he/she without you asking him/her, by seeing his/her equipment you will tell how resilient or not to your attack he/she would be, damn even by seeing what armor/weapon is he/she wearing you will tell his/her class and you will know what magical defense passive skills or physical mitigation that player has. And by being level 48 and hitting someone in your level range for 1200 you will know that fck, if I hit him for 1200 with my specific weapon and skills then he/she is most probably left with less than half of HP and has no magical defense passives or magic resistance increasing items (like jewelry) equipped and if I troll a bit and hit one more spell then that player MIGHT drop dead and I will be PK. Because you will know what average HP that player has even before hitting him/her. I really want to farm in this farming spot (it's the best spot for me right now), but if I shoo him/her by killing him/her and become corrupt then bounty hunters will see me on the world map and even if I've taken the spot I won't for a long time here, because bounty hunters will come and hunt me down. So I COULD get this spot easily, but I don't know/I'm not sure if it's worth it - risk vs reward. Ok but why showing the damage and not the health bar ? I could develop exactly the same argument in case devs would want to show the health bar and not the damage instead. But they are choosing to show damage and not the health bars, that's the only difference. I mean... I hope 😳 They are chosing to show health bars. This has been the plan for years. They are segmented health bars rather than percentage health bars - but the plan has been to have them for actual years. The closest thing to a comment supporting what you are saying was when Intrepid said you can not see EXACT health values unless you are in a group, raid, guild or alliance with the character in question. The segmented health bars do not show exact values - which is why that comment was made. oh wow, then in this case I am absolutely uneducated on this matter and I can go and be sad alone about the learnt truth.. 😔
Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP. By actually playing the game you get to know and learn how much HP approximately you will hit a target that is in a range of level 40-48, wearing a Plated Leather set, farming in an x location. Just by seeing a player you will be able to tell his approximate level, his defense or attack possibilities and how many Hurricane spells he would withstand from you if he would be an attack dummy and wouldn't heal himself. All information is in front of you. By finding a player hunting in a specific zone and farming a specific mob you will know what level is he/she without you asking him/her, by seeing his/her equipment you will tell how resilient or not to your attack he/she would be, damn even by seeing what armor/weapon is he/she wearing you will tell his/her class and you will know what magical defense passive skills or physical mitigation that player has. And by being level 48 and hitting someone in your level range for 1200 you will know that fck, if I hit him for 1200 with my specific weapon and skills then he/she is most probably left with less than half of HP and has no magical defense passives or magic resistance increasing items (like jewelry) equipped and if I troll a bit and hit one more spell then that player MIGHT drop dead and I will be PK. Because you will know what average HP that player has even before hitting him/her. I really want to farm in this farming spot (it's the best spot for me right now), but if I shoo him/her by killing him/her and become corrupt then bounty hunters will see me on the world map and even if I've taken the spot I won't for a long time here, because bounty hunters will come and hunt me down. So I COULD get this spot easily, but I don't know/I'm not sure if it's worth it - risk vs reward. Ok but why showing the damage and not the health bar ? I could develop exactly the same argument in case devs would want to show the health bar and not the damage instead. But they are choosing to show damage and not the health bars, that's the only difference. I mean... I hope 😳 They are chosing to show health bars. This has been the plan for years. They are segmented health bars rather than percentage health bars - but the plan has been to have them for actual years. The closest thing to a comment supporting what you are saying was when Intrepid said you can not see EXACT health values unless you are in a group, raid, guild or alliance with the character in question. The segmented health bars do not show exact values - which is why that comment was made.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP. By actually playing the game you get to know and learn how much HP approximately you will hit a target that is in a range of level 40-48, wearing a Plated Leather set, farming in an x location. Just by seeing a player you will be able to tell his approximate level, his defense or attack possibilities and how many Hurricane spells he would withstand from you if he would be an attack dummy and wouldn't heal himself. All information is in front of you. By finding a player hunting in a specific zone and farming a specific mob you will know what level is he/she without you asking him/her, by seeing his/her equipment you will tell how resilient or not to your attack he/she would be, damn even by seeing what armor/weapon is he/she wearing you will tell his/her class and you will know what magical defense passive skills or physical mitigation that player has. And by being level 48 and hitting someone in your level range for 1200 you will know that fck, if I hit him for 1200 with my specific weapon and skills then he/she is most probably left with less than half of HP and has no magical defense passives or magic resistance increasing items (like jewelry) equipped and if I troll a bit and hit one more spell then that player MIGHT drop dead and I will be PK. Because you will know what average HP that player has even before hitting him/her. I really want to farm in this farming spot (it's the best spot for me right now), but if I shoo him/her by killing him/her and become corrupt then bounty hunters will see me on the world map and even if I've taken the spot I won't for a long time here, because bounty hunters will come and hunt me down. So I COULD get this spot easily, but I don't know/I'm not sure if it's worth it - risk vs reward. Ok but why showing the damage and not the health bar ? I could develop exactly the same argument in case devs would want to show the health bar and not the damage instead. But they are choosing to show damage and not the health bars, that's the only difference. I mean... I hope 😳
Myosotys wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP. By actually playing the game you get to know and learn how much HP approximately you will hit a target that is in a range of level 40-48, wearing a Plated Leather set, farming in an x location. Just by seeing a player you will be able to tell his approximate level, his defense or attack possibilities and how many Hurricane spells he would withstand from you if he would be an attack dummy and wouldn't heal himself. All information is in front of you. By finding a player hunting in a specific zone and farming a specific mob you will know what level is he/she without you asking him/her, by seeing his/her equipment you will tell how resilient or not to your attack he/she would be, damn even by seeing what armor/weapon is he/she wearing you will tell his/her class and you will know what magical defense passive skills or physical mitigation that player has. And by being level 48 and hitting someone in your level range for 1200 you will know that fck, if I hit him for 1200 with my specific weapon and skills then he/she is most probably left with less than half of HP and has no magical defense passives or magic resistance increasing items (like jewelry) equipped and if I troll a bit and hit one more spell then that player MIGHT drop dead and I will be PK. Because you will know what average HP that player has even before hitting him/her. I really want to farm in this farming spot (it's the best spot for me right now), but if I shoo him/her by killing him/her and become corrupt then bounty hunters will see me on the world map and even if I've taken the spot I won't for a long time here, because bounty hunters will come and hunt me down. So I COULD get this spot easily, but I don't know/I'm not sure if it's worth it - risk vs reward. Ok but why showing the damage and not the health bar ? I could develop exactly the same argument in case devs would want to show the health bar and not the damage instead.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP. By actually playing the game you get to know and learn how much HP approximately you will hit a target that is in a range of level 40-48, wearing a Plated Leather set, farming in an x location. Just by seeing a player you will be able to tell his approximate level, his defense or attack possibilities and how many Hurricane spells he would withstand from you if he would be an attack dummy and wouldn't heal himself. All information is in front of you. By finding a player hunting in a specific zone and farming a specific mob you will know what level is he/she without you asking him/her, by seeing his/her equipment you will tell how resilient or not to your attack he/she would be, damn even by seeing what armor/weapon is he/she wearing you will tell his/her class and you will know what magical defense passive skills or physical mitigation that player has. And by being level 48 and hitting someone in your level range for 1200 you will know that fck, if I hit him for 1200 with my specific weapon and skills then he/she is most probably left with less than half of HP and has no magical defense passives or magic resistance increasing items (like jewelry) equipped and if I troll a bit and hit one more spell then that player MIGHT drop dead and I will be PK. Because you will know what average HP that player has even before hitting him/her. I really want to farm in this farming spot (it's the best spot for me right now), but if I shoo him/her by killing him/her and become corrupt then bounty hunters will see me on the world map and even if I've taken the spot I won't for a long time here, because bounty hunters will come and hunt me down. So I COULD get this spot easily, but I don't know/I'm not sure if it's worth it - risk vs reward.
Myosotys wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators. Health bar for sure, or at least a coloured outline (Degraded from green - orange to red for full HP and low HP) If no health bar, then it's better to hide damages too... What's the point of knowing your damage without knowing the ratio of health you take away from your opponent... Maybe you feel that you are destroying him but the guy has a huge amount of HP.
George_Black wrote: » Target player healthbars dont belong in an open world mmo specially in AoC which uses the flagging/PK system to facilitate open world progress and conflict of interest based PvP. Knowing a target players health can lead to gameplay that's not fun for the defender. If a player battles mobs and an attacker notices his low HP he could lower it to the point where the mobs can deal the final blow and the attacker can claim the dropped items and the area. This is why AoC went with health indicators. The current ones we saw on the latest stream were not good. They will be further worked on since we are still in development. But what is the aim of them? I would argue that there is 0 usage for health indicators as well as health bars for target players. Besides the fact that they are a visual clutter and offer (rightly) unclear target player survivability, a low health indicator makes a target the priority for nuking in organized PvP. We dont need them. A basic nameplay with a "current target" icon to signify that this player is rdy to be hit by your abilities is all it takes in OWpvp. You dont need to know more info. It's not a battleground, nor any other instanced PvP like in other mmos. You either choose to fight an enemy in the open world for gains, or you compromise and move along. If you choose to fight you fight and you either touch the dirt or he does. No health bars. Health indicators? What for? No health indicators.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Adapt? Well, you too then 🤭 We want only the pvp side from L2 (because it's being taken directly from L2). Actually, Ashes PvP is not being taken directly from L2 - it is being largely inspired by it. We are adapting that wars and castle sieges will be instanced This is factually incorrect. Don't tell me we will get castles sieges being in an open world! ?😮 This has always been the plan. They may have some small objectives that are contained within an instance, but the bulk of node wars, guild wars, node sieges and castle sieges is all set to be open world. hmm I thought castle sieges were instanced. 250 vs 250 where did you see they will happen in the open world?
Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » And if you attack them, you will know right away if you did anything to them. That's what health bars simulate, the knowledge you definitely have when you fight someone. I mean a real world analogy is a bit off, but even under that context you have basic info right away. There will not be sufficient info from combat animations to judge Health well. Which is why there are Health bars. If Steven could get the Designers to provide sufficient info to judge Health without Health bars, Ashes would not have Health bars.
Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Not showing your enemies HP was sometimes even the core of the whole flagging system Yeah, but showing it means players can make more informed decisions - and since a game is nothing more than a scenario in which players make decisions and then see the results of them, enabling players to make more informed decisions can only ever be a good thing.
ArnasPanika wrote: » Not showing your enemies HP was sometimes even the core of the whole flagging system
Texas wrote: » Someone from Intrepid said that non-registered players will be prevented from participating by not being able to use respawn points near the node. That implies they have shifted to open world to me. But sometimes things get said that are just ideas and aren't final. --- Why to have PvP enemy health indicators: 1) Executes/builder-spender/combo/dmg burst styles of gameplay. They've already leaned into these styles of play with their class design. Fighters even have an execute. And, no, knowledge of the game and a feeling for TTK doesn't make this go away. Those basically only apply to fair duels. In open world pvp and group battles there's no accurate sense you can develop for who is low on health and not. 2) Target choice. This matters for group PvP. Why not to: 1) Gaming the flagging system. --- These seem like the main important factors. I don't think the aesthetic (or immersion) reasons or seeing the bars change matter as much. There will be combat text, so big numbers are shown anyway. Aesthetics just take a back seat to gameplay - especially right now as things are aesthetically going to change a lot before launch. --- A: The partial HP bars seem like they address both issues pretty decently already. If anything, there are still issues with the con. Maybe you can't tell exaclty if you will kill a low HP player, you can be reasonably assured that you won't accidentally kill a high HP player. B: Seems like the better answer for the con is to just change the flagging system to where if I attack a green and the green dies within ~30 secs, I get corruption regardless of if the killing blow was an NPC or other players, or myself.It has been sitting weird with me for a while now that the flagging feels like too rigid a structure with obvious loopholes and that needs to be over-explained because it's very unintuitive.
NiKr wrote: » https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Castle_siegesNon-registered combatants are not permitted on the siege field in castle or node sieges.[53] To me, that implies instancing, because that's exactly what instances do. If it's gonna be some random barrier that prevent others from entering the siege location - Intrepid might as well just put that shit into a proper instance, to lessen the load on the servers. If no-one can interrupt my activity in any way - that's a damn instance.
There may be instanced locations within otherwise open-world castle and node sieges, where specific groups can participate in small, short duration objective-based battles that will affect the overall outcome of the siege.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » ArnasPanika wrote: » Not showing your enemies HP was sometimes even the core of the whole flagging system Yeah, but showing it means players can make more informed decisions - and since a game is nothing more than a scenario in which players make decisions and then see the results of them, enabling players to make more informed decisions can only ever be a good thing. yeah the decision of run away and hide...
Noaani wrote: » On the other hand, I don't see how the above comment can be correct without sieges being mostly open world.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » On the other hand, I don't see how the above comment can be correct without sieges being mostly open world. You can still have instances within instances. A room within a room.
And at a point where you have yourself an effective instance, I'd imagine it'd be only a small step to go into a full instance, especially if that step lets you have a way healthier siege because it's now on a separate server body or smth like that.
Noaani wrote: » If they are able to pull off the target of 500v500 siege in an open world setting without much impact in playability, that is something that even I would be impressed with - even if I don't see the point.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » If they are able to pull off the target of 500v500 siege in an open world setting without much impact in playability, that is something that even I would be impressed with - even if I don't see the point. The only impressive thing would be if that siege can be 500v500, while there's 2k people standing right at the outer edge of the siege.
And considering that we're supposedly not getting channels or sharding, any metro will already have to be able to support ~1k people existing within its location.
Hell, at 10k concurrents on the server at release, those starting gates will have to not crash the server when there's at least 2k people right in the same spot.
If anything, I don't see the point in putting a limit on siege participants
But in the current design sieges are effectively instanced
