DPS Meter Megathread

Noaani wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Yes. Everyone is equal.
Your out of game actions disrupt that.

It isn't just me though.

Like a true politician.

Dygz

Texas wrote: »

Aren't you just saying that you want PvE content to be really easy? If a boss fight is such that you can't improve by reviewing what happened in the last fight, that sounds like pretty boring PvE.

I'm saying we shouldn't be relying on a dev-created tool to analyze how we should improve our tactics.
Boring is subjective. I'd say it's boring and unimmersive to be examining a dev-created tool after battles to figure out new tactics.

ExiledByrd

I lean more towards Noaani's side on this one. Even a game like FFXIV, where DPS meters are soft banned, DPS metrics are still huge and can get you added and removed from groups. If content is easy then DPS meters don't matter, you'll get the content done, it might just take some more time. If content is hard optimizing DPS is very important and meters are a great tool to help you do better.

As far as arguments against DPS meters.

1. Some people will use DPS meters to bully people.
This is 100% true. I would argue however that even without DPS meters people will get bullied for performing badly. It may be harder to tell who is performing poorly in a PUG, but organized groups will figure it out.

2. Some people will use DPS meters to optimize the characters damage. This will result in things like the Devs using optimized numbers as benchmarks for designing PvE content.
Also 100% true, but a lack of DPS meters wont change this. The top performing groups and people will use meters. As a tool the information that it provides is to useful for self improvement. Since the best are doing it, (or somehow reaching a similar level without it,) upper PvE content will be based around it regardless.

3. People will chase the numbers and become bad players by ignoring mechanics and causing extra work for healers.
100% true. But DPS are going to locked in and ignore the mechanics anyway. Healers will have to heal that guy who stood in fire or let him die. It wont be any different if you remove the meter. If you have the meter, DPS will just brag about their numbers after the fight while the healers take a couple of deep breaths.

ExiledByrd wrote: »

3. People will chase the numbers and become bad players by ignoring mechanics and causing extra work for healers.
100% true. But DPS are going to locked in and ignore the mechanics anyway. Healers will have to heal that guy who stood in fire or let him die. It wont be any different if you remove the meter. If you have the meter, DPS will just brag about their numbers after the fight while the healers take a couple of deep breaths.

Great post.

Though I'll disagree with #3 100%.
It's blatantly obvious when a meter is available for all to see during a fight. Without them this isn't nearly the issue. Bad players are bad, but meters change play directly and immediatley for the e-peen obsessed.

*** could that be a compromise? The timeliness of the report?

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

No, to DPS meters. They would also be useless in a real MMO that isn't World of Warcraft, and arguably are pretty useless in a lot of content in World of Warcraft.

People who stare at the DPS meter used to get kicked and blacklisted for being DPS whores and not paying attention to important mechanics and just padding numbers.

I really doubt we're going to have that same WoW style brain-dead content in Ashes, and I thought they had already decided that third party programs won't be allowed.

@HazardNumberSeven

A few points.

Every MMO ever has had combat trackers be used, most of them from day one of the game being live.

I agree people shouldn't be looking at a combat tracker during combat, that is a misuse of them.

Combat trackers are used for more than just combat, despite the name.

He primary use of a combat tracker - in terms of hours spent - is on character builds, not on content.

Combat trackers are the only tool we have for checking developer work. I have personally used them in many games in the past to show developers where they got things wrong, and in most cases these things have been fixed.

Despite all of this, combat trackers dk not give players access to any information we don't already have access to.

NiKr wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Aren't you just saying that you want PvE content to be really easy? If a boss fight is such that you can't improve by reviewing what happened in the last fight, that sounds like pretty boring PvE.

If devs can't design a difficult fight, where you don't need a parser to tell you what happened - they've failed as devs. Meters are much more of a crutch for the devs rather than for the players.

Fron my perspective, it isn't about designing a content thst is hard without trackers, it is about attracting people to top end content that aren't also people interested in self-improvement.

The kinds of people that want to be on top in a game strive to be the best they can. A combat tracker is a part of that. Thus, people running top end content will have a tracker.

Designing an encounter that is capable of being killed by people that haven't used a tracker to inform their character and raid builds, but that is also challenging to those that have - yeah, that isn't possible in a game that allows for player directed builds.

HazardNumberSeven

Noaani wrote: »

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

No, to DPS meters. They would also be useless in a real MMO that isn't World of Warcraft, and arguably are pretty useless in a lot of content in World of Warcraft.

People who stare at the DPS meter used to get kicked and blacklisted for being DPS whores and not paying attention to important mechanics and just padding numbers.

I really doubt we're going to have that same WoW style brain-dead content in Ashes, and I thought they had already decided that third party programs won't be allowed.

@HazardNumberSeven

A few points.

Every MMO ever has had combat trackers be used, most of them from day one of the game being live.

I agree people shouldn't be looking at a combat tracker during combat, that is a misuse of them.

Combat trackers are used for more than just combat, despite the name.

He primary use of a combat tracker - in terms of hours spent - is on character builds, not on content.

Combat trackers are the only tool we have for checking developer work. I have personally used them in many games in the past to show developers where they got things wrong, and in most cases these things have been fixed.

Despite all of this, combat trackers dk not give players access to any information we don't already have access to.

I dunno who you've been playing with or what MMOs you've played, but "every mmo ever" is definitely not true.
I've played MMOs for over 35 years now, and the ones I've played I can promise you, basically not a single person was using DPS meters because there would be no point, because they're not structured in a way where DPS meters would have any purpose.

I've also managed to play WoW, a game that definitely DOES benefit from third party (imo cheating) software like trackers, at the highest pvp and pve levels since vanilla without using a single add-on. So saying they're "required" is also, obviously not true, unless I'm just magic or a god (I'm not. I'm mediocre as hell).

Hopefully we won't have DPS meters, because we won't need them. If you want to measure the damage per second you're doing on a target dummy, for some reason, I don't see a problem with that. But with dynamic gameplay, emergant abilities based on node/event, etc etc, that we've seen from previews so far, I just don't see how knowing your DPS is going to be even remotely useful in this game.

HazardNumberSeven

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Aren't you just saying that you want PvE content to be really easy? If a boss fight is such that you can't improve by reviewing what happened in the last fight, that sounds like pretty boring PvE.

If devs can't design a difficult fight, where you don't need a parser to tell you what happened - they've failed as devs. Meters are much more of a crutch for the devs rather than for the players.

Fron my perspective, it isn't about designing a content thst is hard without trackers, it is about attracting people to top end content that aren't also people interested in self-improvement.

The kinds of people that want to be on top in a game strive to be the best they can. A combat tracker is a part of that. Thus, people running top end content will have a tracker.

Designing an encounter that is capable of being killed by people that haven't used a tracker to inform their character and raid builds, but that is also challenging to those that have - yeah, that isn't possible in a game that allows for player directed builds.

Sounds like a skill issue, tbh. If you can't handle the game without relying on a third-party program to hold your hand, then that's a 'you problem'.

Dygz

ExiledByrd wrote: »

The top performing groups and people will use meters. As a tool the information that it provides is to useful for self improvement. Since the best are doing it, (or somehow reaching a similar level without it,) upper PvE content will be based around it regardless.

I really don't care what the "top performing groups" are doing to make content easier for themselves.
I care more about what the average players are doing. And I would rather not have the devs creating tools that denegrate the below-average players.

You still going on about asking for dps meters to help you optimize your PvE build in an mmo in which the instant you get attacked by an enemy player your whole min/max optimization (which comes at the cost of survivability and PvP capability) goes out the window and you drop dead?
Boy will it be fun stealing your RBs...

Or are you still going on about asking for DPS meters in an mmo in which instanced content will be so limited and wont have that much of an impact in your overall character/gear progression, and which will certainly wont be designed the same way that gear/achievement treadmill mmos are designing their raids?

Every MMO ever has had combat trackers be used, most of them from day one of the game being live.

This is FALSE.

And not only that, I'd call it a blatant lie concocted to push a motive.

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

No, to DPS meters. They would also be useless in a real MMO that isn't World of Warcraft, and arguably are pretty useless in a lot of content in World of Warcraft.

People who stare at the DPS meter used to get kicked and blacklisted for being DPS whores and not paying attention to important mechanics and just padding numbers.

I really doubt we're going to have that same WoW style brain-dead content in Ashes, and I thought they had already decided that third party programs won't be allowed.

HazardNumberSeven

A few points.

Every MMO ever has had combat trackers be used, most of them from day one of the game being live.

I agree people shouldn't be looking at a combat tracker during combat, that is a misuse of them.

Combat trackers are used for more than just combat, despite the name.

He primary use of a combat tracker - in terms of hours spent - is on character builds, not on content.

Combat trackers are the only tool we have for checking developer work. I have personally used them in many games in the past to show developers where they got things wrong, and in most cases these things have been fixed.

Despite all of this, combat trackers dk not give players access to any information we don't already have access to.

I dunno who you've been playing with or what MMOs you've played, but "every mmo ever" is definitely not true.

It is true.

They were being used for Meridian59 during its first week of being live, and we're used on MUD's before that.

You perhaps need to understand - a combat tracker is not just a tool to measure DPS - even though some people mistakenly call them DPS meters. You seem to be assuming this is all they do.

What they are doing is basically recording everything. You can use them to record how many pieces of ore you harvest in an hour, if you like.

This is why they exist in every MMO. it isn't just about DPS, it is about getting any objective data at all that any given player may want to know for any possible reason.

Noaani wrote: »

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

HazardNumberSeven wrote: »

No, to DPS meters. They would also be useless in a real MMO that isn't World of Warcraft, and arguably are pretty useless in a lot of content in World of Warcraft.

People who stare at the DPS meter used to get kicked and blacklisted for being DPS whores and not paying attention to important mechanics and just padding numbers.

I really doubt we're going to have that same WoW style brain-dead content in Ashes, and I thought they had already decided that third party programs won't be allowed.

HazardNumberSeven

A few points.

Every MMO ever has had combat trackers be used, most of them from day one of the game being live.

I agree people shouldn't be looking at a combat tracker during combat, that is a misuse of them.

Combat trackers are used for more than just combat, despite the name.

He primary use of a combat tracker - in terms of hours spent - is on character builds, not on content.

Combat trackers are the only tool we have for checking developer work. I have personally used them in many games in the past to show developers where they got things wrong, and in most cases these things have been fixed.

Despite all of this, combat trackers dk not give players access to any information we don't already have access to.

I dunno who you've been playing with or what MMOs you've played, but "every mmo ever" is definitely not true.

It is true.

They were being used for Meridian59 during its first week of being live, and we're used on MUD's before that.

You perhaps need to understand - a combat tracker is not just a tool to measure DPS - even though some people mistakenly call them DPS meters. You seem to be assuming this is all they do.

What they are doing is basically recording everything. You can use them to record how many pieces of ore you harvest in an hour, if you like.

This is why they exist in every MMO. it isn't just about DPS, it is about getting any objective data at all that any given player may want to know for any possible reason.

It's pseudo science to make certain ppl (that havent gotten their inrl priorities straight) feel like they are a fountain of knowledge and uncontestent powah. Hardly necessary, even for competitive players, whose self image and value isnt dependend on a 0.00001% advantage, therefore (still only in their own internal dialogues) making them better than others.

George_Black wrote: »

Hardly necessary, even for competitive players.

Necessary isn't the point.

The point is, competitive players will have it, because it does give you (at the very least) an edge.

I would argue that it doesn't make one a fountain of knowledge, but it does provide benefits.

It is the fact that it provides these benefits, in combination with the fact that many people will run them regardless, that is the reason why I believe the best thing Intrepid could do is build one in to the game.

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Hardly necessary, even for competitive players.

Necessary isn't the point.

The point is, competitive players will have it, because it does give you (at the very least) an edge.

I would argue that it doesn't make one a fountain of knowledge, but it does provide benefits.

It is the fact that it provides these benefits, in combination with the fact that many people will run them regardless, that is the reason why I believe the best thing Intrepid could do is build one in to the game.

The only people that will use it to that extent have received my description already.
Know why?
Because it's an owpvp mmo. But go for 300 pages.

Pyrolol

How do you expect class balancing without seeing dps meters? Can tell we got some real fresh mmo’ers here that might not be able to handle the criticism 😂

Pyrolol wrote: »

How do you expect class balancing without seeing dps meters? Can tell we got some real fresh mmo’ers here that might not be able to handle the criticism 😂

Class balancing for what?
1v1 duel
Small scale random pvp
Large scale siege pvp
Raiding
Grinding xp/loot
Gathering

Class balancing for what? This isnt ESO.
As long as each class can offer players a unique playstyle that they identify with and can fill succussfuly one or a few of the above, players will be happy with their characters even if they arent good at the majority of the above.