DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Basically, you and I have different goals. You want to create a strong build to play, I want to understand why the build is strong.

What would a tracker tell you that a combat log wouldn't? Or are you talking about the auto-parsing of the combat log in the tracker?

Noaani

@Smaashley

Smaashley wrote: »

Okay. For example, in Guild Wars 2, there is a raid boss called Dhuum. This is probably the most difficult raid in the entire game. 2 or 3 players must do something else than DPS at some point.

Please keep the actual question in mind.

If you were bought in to a raid for DPS, you would not be one of these two or three players. On the other hand, if you were asked to perform this function, you were not asked to be DPS - you are DPS + encounter mechanics.

You would not opt to perform that function of your own volition.

The encounter mechanics you talk about are very common in most games with raid encounters - they are not GW2 specific, but were a consideration when I made the initial statement.

Editing to add: NiKr is also correct that a tracker will have this information in it - but the point about only doing DPS was in relation to when you were only asked to do DPS.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

You would not opt to perform that function of your own volition.

But what if the mechanic players are randomly chosen by the game?

Noaani

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote:

It isn't that I have never seen it happen, it is that I have never heard of it happening.

Im not sure I understand that sentence. Are you saying it's even more extreme than just "not seeing it happen" - the concept has never entered your environment?

Indeed.

Before you mentioned it in this thread, it is not a concept I have ever been aware of. In my experience, and the experience of the thousands of people I have played MMORPG's with, discussing expectations of a group before hand other than the target content is simply not done.

In EQ2 (where about half of my MMO play has been), if you joined a group to perform a role, you knew what to do. There was no conversation to be had. People wouldn't join a group with a build that was non-conducive to the role they were expected to fill in the group.

It may well be that this is a part of the reason why there was almost no toxicity in that game - everyone understood their role and came prepared to perform it.

There was no need to discuss clear speed or anything, because the expectation in that game was always "as fast as we can".

Off the top of my head, I can name Regnum and DaoC.

There were means to do this in DAoC up until 2017.

You can still do it in Champions of Regnum.

Just because you are looking for some single number or such and not finding it, doesn't mean there isn't (or wasn't) a way to do it.

Keep in mind, the goal isn't to know the gear score of a character, the goal is to know that they character has suitable gear for the content in question.

They can show off their gear by wearing it

Yes they can, and when they do, I know what gear they have.

As I said above, it isn't about gearscore specifically - that is just one means that some games have for making this easier.

If a game doesn't allow for cosmetics, there is no need to do anything other than look at the character.

The thing is, some people want to show off their fashion, some people want to show off the quality of their gear, some people want o do both (I would argue most people want to do both, to a degree - even though I am not one of that group).

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

You would not opt to perform that function of your own volition.

But what if the mechanic players are randomly chosen by the game?

While this does happen in some games (EQ2 has many such mechanics), such encounters are unlikely to be taken on by pickup groups or raids - and we are discussing pick up content as the base scenario here.

I could speculate as to what I think could happen in a situation like this, but as it isn't a real scenario, I don't see it being overly helpful to the discussion.

What I will say is that if you are going up against an encounter with such a mechanic, no one is being asked to come along as "just" any role - every person present is a key member of the group or raid, and has the very real possibility that their actions could cause a complete wipe (this is why such encounters are not run as pick up content - you need complete faith in every person present).

Pearfor

The very presence of a real-time dps meter inevitably leads to disagreements and bullying in a raid. a player's value starts not from his effectiveness in certain situations, but purely because of the numbers he gives out. there are different situations, somewhere you really need high damage, somewhere you need a well-honed knowledge of mechanics, and somewhere you need the ability to competently predict what is happening and will happen.

In my opinion, a compromise solution would be standard logs that can be viewed after an activity. general access to logs will be available only to the raid leader. individual players can only view their logs.

This way raid leader can evaluate the overall effectiveness of the party in terms of damage, and individual players will know their damage and track their progress.

Pyrolol

Xeeg wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

People worried about people being “toxic” is a piss poor argument, toxic people will be toxic even without trackers or addons

I've even seen people be toxic in the forums! And there is no DPS meter here...

Should have seen the old school WoW forums, now that was good entertainment
It would definitely get cancelled in today’s generation lmao

Noaani

Pearfor wrote: »

The very presence of a real-time dps meter inevitably leads to disagreements and bullying in a raid. a player's value starts not from his effectiveness in certain situations, but purely because of the numbers he gives out. there are different situations, somewhere you really need high damage, somewhere you need a well-honed knowledge of mechanics, and somewhere you need the ability to competently predict what is happening and will happen.

Your first statement is wrong.

The rest of it is subjectively true.

Sure, there are times when you need knowledge of mechanics. However, anyone with that knowledge of mechanics won't be sitting there with a DPS meter aspect of their combat tracker open during an actual fight. If you are in a group or raid with someone that does have it open during a fight, and you are that person that has that understanding of mechanics and such, then you would excuse yourself from that group, raid or guild.

There is no reason or excuse to have a combat tracker showing real time DPS figures.

Pearfor

@Noaani I may have misdescribed what I mean (my English is poor). to be more specific, what I'm saying is that having a real-time dps meter is not necessary at all

that is, when people focus on dps so much that they use dps meter in real time, it leads to many unpleasant situations and changes the vector, mood and meaning of the gameplay and enjoyment. and this change of vector also affects other people in the guild and community

Noaani

Pearfor wrote: »

Noaani I may have misdescribed what I mean (my English is poor). to be more specific, what I'm saying is that having a real-time dps meter is not necessary at all

You described what you meant just fine, and I agree, it isn't needed.

I literally never use one - but I always run a combat tracker. It is at it's best for review post content. The real time DPS measuring aspect of a combat tracker is perhaps 2% of what a combat tracker does. The bulk of this thread is not actually about real time DPS measuring - even if that is what Steven mistakely labeled the thread as (the discussion started before the thread started).

If Intrepid wanted to embrace combat tracker use in Ashes, they could do so in a way where it is not possible to use a combat tracker in real time, if they wished to do so.

George_Black

People woul still request picture as proof of performance which leads to toxicity.
But again... none of that matters in an owpvp mmo.
This shit is designed for instanced gear treadmills

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

People woul still request picture as proof of performance which leads to toxicity.
But again... none of that matters in an owpvp mmo.
This shit is designed for instanced gear treadmills

Some aspects of combat trackers absolutely are designed for instanced content. Some are more geared towards PvP, however.

wakkytabbaky

Texas wrote: »

wakkytabbaky wrote: »

l
that way if a raid is failing due to dps its upto the raid leader to actually find out why not just boot said lowest person or berate them

So it'd be nice to have a tool that can parse the combat log to find out where things are going wrong.....

It's pretty clear a lot of the people posting on this thread don't have any clue what they are talking about.

what id like more than just a simple dps meter is a full log breaking shiz down, just like how you can log in a wow raid and its posted and has every break down possible. only say this because for example i can parse 100% of the time and do my absolute best dps but i can also be standing in / ignoring all the mechanics of a fight. have this as an option would be alot more worthwhile than a simple dps meter since it allows you to see whos bad and whos just not performing to the fullest of their class

Ruerik

wakkytabbaky wrote: »

what id like more than just a simple dps meter is a full log breaking shiz down, just like how you can log in a wow raid and its posted and has every break down possible. only say this because for example i can parse 100% of the time and do my absolute best dps but i can also be standing in / ignoring all the mechanics of a fight. have this as an option would be alot more worthwhile than a simple dps meter since it allows you to see whos bad and whos just not performing to the fullest of their class

They mentioned we will be getting a combat log, but were light on the details, and also it will be personal only.

Personal only doesn't really cut it, since other jobs will debuff enemy defenses, or buff your own attacks. A personal only log will not give you the data you need to adjust for these affects. Plus if you are a job that is applying these affects, then you need to know the measurement of the others so you can see how much you actually bring to the table for the folks doing more damage in the 10s your buffs are applied or whatever.

If the provided personal log is detailed enough. At a minimum as detailed as fflogs. Then I expect the only third party tool that will be developed will be one for us to be able to upload our personal logs to a sort of group encounter log, letting raid teams link logs together.

Since most people, even ff14 players, don't use the website to its full potential anyway, by which I mean they just look at the final dps number... Here is what I mean by as detailed as.

You can open up any uploaded encounter, and see a timeline of precisely when people start/finish casts, what abilities are used when, what debuffs/buffs are on boss/players at what time, and all the skills/spells affected by those buffs/debuffs. Not just for damage, but for healing, shielding, and mitigations as well. It helps to plan out for the team on where players should be using burst phases based on boss mechanics, and where the team should be using mitigation/shielding abilities. FF14 encounters are 'on rails', the same thing every time with limited variation. I expect ashes to be different, however still getting log data is useful for technically minded players.

This honestly gives::
a) Players that want privacy about their logs to maintain privacy,
b) Raids a way to measure and improve performance
c) Theory crafters a way to pour over build data in real scenarios that matter.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Ludullu

It's time to awaken the ancient evil, cause I don't wanna make a new thread just about this.

Steven has finally confirmed that we ain't getting stuff that's gonna be as difficult as FF14's ultimates or WoW's mythic+ (the clip continues a bit more after this).
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxzVVVzcryVUpXupNHYVTwbf-4wuQlc0rn?si=DEM1z0OcvbjLDlxG

So, now, I know that we've had discussions that meters don't have to be used purely for pve encounters and all that, but I do feel like when majority of players here "dps meters" - wow's mythic stuff is the first thing that comes to their minds, so I feel like if we're not getting that kind of difficulty then we don't really need the meters either.

Pendragxn

Yikes put it back to sleep! What have thee awoken in the deep dark places…

If you need to quantify your DPS guess what?

You’re not doing enough damage!

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

It's time to awaken the ancient evil, cause I don't wanna make a new thread just about this.

Steven has finally confirmed that we ain't getting stuff that's gonna be as difficult as FF14's ultimates or WoW's mythic+ (the clip continues a bit more after this).
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxzVVVzcryVUpXupNHYVTwbf-4wuQlc0rn?si=DEM1z0OcvbjLDlxG

So, now, I know that we've had discussions that meters don't have to be used purely for pve encounters and all that, but I do feel like when majority of players here "dps meters" - wow's mythic stuff is the first thing that comes to their minds, so I feel like if we're not getting that kind of difficulty then we don't really need the meters either.

I believe you should have made the other thread.

I listened to the clip, and as a Combat Tracker myself (just me, personally, with my irl Perfect Clarity skill, ofc) I don't really think it's related to this thread and for some people who don't consume all content, it might have been better to get that as a 'new thread'.

But, either way, I'm now doing my part, so maybe we can, in fact, leave it here, since discussion of it would probably devolve pretty quickly into DPS meters, at least.

For the usual people, Steven is just clarifying his audience a bit more. There's even a small new hint where he opens up the potential for making it so that all boss content has the possibility of PvX (basically he phrased something in a way that could let him later on say that he told us that there might not be any content that is guaranteed to have no PvP at it).

I appreciate this shift to the clarification of the game's audience.

Har un il tok Fyrburand mat dar. (or Mu fen spaan un zeymah Yolhaalvut, if you prefer)

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

But, either way, I'm now doing my part, so maybe we can, in fact, leave it here, since discussion of it would probably devolve pretty quickly into DPS meters, at least.

This is kinda exactly why I decided to post here.

I don't really see much "new" discussion happening with any newcomers to the forums, while this was just a piece of news for anyone who might not be watching all the ashes-related content out there, while is still interested in news related to this topic (which, imo hardcore pve directly is). And all the regulars would definitely get triggered by this thread being updated, so they'll check these news

Azherae wrote: »

For the usual people, Steven is just clarifying his audience a bit more.

And yeah, this is definitely a concentration of the TA circle. I am curious what has pushed Steven to finally say it like this. Cause even just a few months ago (or maybe it's been a damn year already) we had that one other interview where he said that Intrepid would be trying to make content that would appeal to hardcore pvers.

It would be cool if our endless discussions of the topic brought it on, but I doubt we wield that kind of power.

Azherae

I'm sure that someone at Intrepid (most likely Steven himself ofc) absolutely understands that we are a 'sample set'. A microcosm of what is to come.

And we're invested enough to actually hang around and try(?) to discuss these things in a serious and civil manner (lol).

But only 9 days until we can go into the West.

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