I don't know if others would agree but I would like to see a little more depth in explanation of stats and the true effects they have on us.
My two cents is that having all of that specific information is just not very useful ... right now.
Unless those stats and systems are specifically what is being tested, there is no need to make it fully transparent. The numbers and relationships between those numbers are not just something that could change; they are something that will change. Even if there ends up being any form of transparency, I'd much rather have it in Beta.
I’m curious on their side of things what the negatives would be for giving a lot of the information on stats.
Probably concerned about min/maxers pressuring people to take certain builds because they can mathematically prove that they are better or something.
Take it from me - min/maxers are not using that information without checking it.
I've yet to see a single game where the provided information on how stats and such work is 100% accurate. What min/maxers do is check that what they are saying is what is actually happening.
Also, they only way there won't be a meta supplied by min/maxers is if all builds are basically equally viable.
If the calculations are opaque, it's not just a question of complicated math. Even if the maths is complicated, there will always be guides to tell you what to do.
It's also because the devs themselves don't arrive at the expected results.
So leaving a margin of opacity gives devs the means to correct inconsistencies and bugs before players discover the problems and exploit them.
Devs should also be allowed to make unofficial updates and do their job as devs. Anyone who wants to know the game's code should join Intrepid.
@Sunboy I think that the game becoming a math problem is inevitable at the highest levels. I would argue that the game becoming a little bit more of a math problem allows people without python or coding experience to compete with these people more. When you click your character screen or hover over a spell there are already numbers attached. I am just saying give us a book in the bottom right that explains our stats even more in detail. Whether or not you use that is up to you and how competitive you want to be. The competitive people will just gap you that much more if they have this information and you don't. It feels like you guys are choosing to be blind because you think most everyone else is blind. However, if there is one thing I have discovered in MMO's it's that information is POWER. Releasing the information gives less power to the people who are capable of discovering and withholding it from the rest of us. In turn you choosing to be blind is just putting you at a disadvantage until someone decides to release the information and by then you are already disadvantaged.
@Myosotys Wouldn't you say that since this is going to be Alpha-2 that now is the time for them to put out their information. Whether it's right or wrong will be discovered by us and I am sure they will fix it at that point. If they change or fix something all they would have to do is update us on the changes in a patch note. Now is the time for them to make mistakes and have us test in a testing phase. I would rather discover something now that's fucked then have something wrong later come game time. They can reset a testing phase where someone got an advantage.
Showing the actual game stats in a tooltip (not just plain text in a tooltip that matches, but a link in the tooltip that pulls the actual calculated damage or effect) is very smart for a game designer. Because hidden shifts in stats are tougher to internal playtest and/or PTR validate.
So when a balance pass gets released the sweaty guys test everything. Then they find out that ability X that was supposed to get a 5% damage increase got a 50% damage increase because someone messed up, and the playtesters missed it. Sweaty test guys now have an advantage until others catch on. Then game balance is screwed until game devs catch on and issue a hotfix or patch.
Stats are also nice for theorycrafting a build. If you don't actually know your crit chance % or how high your crit chance can get, it's really hard to make a build that relies on specific proc-on-crit effects. This means you also need to know if softcaps are a thing for crit chance, where they start, and how much the softcap takes away.
As someone who appreciates both sides of min-max and statless immersion, I can say one thing:
Alpha 2 isn’t going to be the testing phase where there’s a high focus on polish by the Intrepid Combat Team.
It’s more about functionality of the primary archetypes. Indeed, a couple of the primary archetypes aren’t even ready to showcase yet.
Bottom line: Those forum-goers who are eagerly posting in this thread (about getting their hands on precise stat calculations) … should be prepared to be disappointed in Alpha 2 and should be looking forward to Beta.
Bottom line: Those forum-goers who are eagerly posting in this thread (about getting their hands on precise stat calculations) … should be prepared to be disappointed in Alpha 2 and should be looking forward to Beta.
Still excited.
Clearly the final balance changes wont happen until the polish starts to go on at the end of the alpha phase or into the beta.
But the functional form of equations are not likely to change, just coefficients.
As well as what stats interact with what other stats.
We can still get all the testing framework in place for the future by figuring out the interactions, and later on during beta, and all future balance updates figuring the coefficient changes will then be a very quick thing to do.
TLDR, its still fun, not sure why you think we would get disappointed
@Taleof2Cities I respect what you’re saying. However, forums are more than just for the present. The idea has been at least shared and seen. My goal for the post is to get this recognized and it was so either way I’m happy.
@Sunboy I think that the game becoming a math problem is inevitable at the highest levels. I would argue that the game becoming a little bit more of a math problem allows people without python or coding experience to compete with these people more. When you click your character screen or hover over a spell there are already numbers attached. I am just saying give us a book in the bottom right that explains our stats even more in detail. Whether or not you use that is up to you and how competitive you want to be. The competitive people will just gap you that much more if they have this information and you don't. It feels like you guys are choosing to be blind because you think most everyone else is blind. However, if there is one thing I have discovered in MMO's it's that information is POWER. Releasing the information gives less power to the people who are capable of discovering and withholding it from the rest of us. In turn you choosing to be blind is just putting you at a disadvantage until someone decides to release the information and by then you are already disadvantaged.
And if there is one thing i have discovered, it is that choosing to be blind sometimes makes things more entertaining. One real life example is alcohol, you sure can't see the world as it is under the influence or perform as well. But it sure is hella fun (done right, dont drink kids)
@Sunboy I think that the game becoming a math problem is inevitable at the highest levels. I would argue that the game becoming a little bit more of a math problem allows people without python or coding experience to compete with these people more. When you click your character screen or hover over a spell there are already numbers attached. I am just saying give us a book in the bottom right that explains our stats even more in detail. Whether or not you use that is up to you and how competitive you want to be. The competitive people will just gap you that much more if they have this information and you don't. It feels like you guys are choosing to be blind because you think most everyone else is blind. However, if there is one thing I have discovered in MMO's it's that information is POWER. Releasing the information gives less power to the people who are capable of discovering and withholding it from the rest of us. In turn you choosing to be blind is just putting you at a disadvantage until someone decides to release the information and by then you are already disadvantaged.
And if there is one thing i have discovered, it is that choosing to be blind sometimes makes things more entertaining. One real life example is alcohol, you sure can't see the world as it is under the influence or perform as well. But it sure is hella fun (done right, dont drink kids)
@Sunboy I think that the game becoming a math problem is inevitable at the highest levels. I would argue that the game becoming a little bit more of a math problem allows people without python or coding experience to compete with these people more. When you click your character screen or hover over a spell there are already numbers attached. I am just saying give us a book in the bottom right that explains our stats even more in detail. Whether or not you use that is up to you and how competitive you want to be. The competitive people will just gap you that much more if they have this information and you don't. It feels like you guys are choosing to be blind because you think most everyone else is blind. However, if there is one thing I have discovered in MMO's it's that information is POWER. Releasing the information gives less power to the people who are capable of discovering and withholding it from the rest of us. In turn you choosing to be blind is just putting you at a disadvantage until someone decides to release the information and by then you are already disadvantaged.
And if there is one thing i have discovered, it is that choosing to be blind sometimes makes things more entertaining. One real life example is alcohol, you sure can't see the world as it is under the influence or perform as well. But it sure is hella fun (done right, dont drink kids)
Comments
My two cents is that having all of that specific information is just not very useful ... right now.
Unless those stats and systems are specifically what is being tested, there is no need to make it fully transparent. The numbers and relationships between those numbers are not just something that could change; they are something that will change. Even if there ends up being any form of transparency, I'd much rather have it in Beta.
Take it from me - min/maxers are not using that information without checking it.
I've yet to see a single game where the provided information on how stats and such work is 100% accurate. What min/maxers do is check that what they are saying is what is actually happening.
Also, they only way there won't be a meta supplied by min/maxers is if all builds are basically equally viable.
It's also because the devs themselves don't arrive at the expected results.
So leaving a margin of opacity gives devs the means to correct inconsistencies and bugs before players discover the problems and exploit them.
Devs should also be allowed to make unofficial updates and do their job as devs. Anyone who wants to know the game's code should join Intrepid.
If i need all that info to beat raids its no longer a game, its a math problem.
So when a balance pass gets released the sweaty guys test everything. Then they find out that ability X that was supposed to get a 5% damage increase got a 50% damage increase because someone messed up, and the playtesters missed it. Sweaty test guys now have an advantage until others catch on. Then game balance is screwed until game devs catch on and issue a hotfix or patch.
Stats are also nice for theorycrafting a build. If you don't actually know your crit chance % or how high your crit chance can get, it's really hard to make a build that relies on specific proc-on-crit effects. This means you also need to know if softcaps are a thing for crit chance, where they start, and how much the softcap takes away.
Alpha 2 isn’t going to be the testing phase where there’s a high focus on polish by the Intrepid Combat Team.
It’s more about functionality of the primary archetypes. Indeed, a couple of the primary archetypes aren’t even ready to showcase yet.
Bottom line: Those forum-goers who are eagerly posting in this thread (about getting their hands on precise stat calculations) … should be prepared to be disappointed in Alpha 2 and should be looking forward to Beta.
Still excited.
Clearly the final balance changes wont happen until the polish starts to go on at the end of the alpha phase or into the beta.
But the functional form of equations are not likely to change, just coefficients.
As well as what stats interact with what other stats.
We can still get all the testing framework in place for the future by figuring out the interactions, and later on during beta, and all future balance updates figuring the coefficient changes will then be a very quick thing to do.
TLDR, its still fun, not sure why you think we would get disappointed
And if there is one thing i have discovered, it is that choosing to be blind sometimes makes things more entertaining. One real life example is alcohol, you sure can't see the world as it is under the influence or perform as well. But it sure is hella fun (done right, dont drink kids)
wood alcohol
i see what you did there lol