Leveling Speed

Wiki says the following:

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

This is equal to ~225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion about it? Would you like it to be faster or slower?

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Royko

Slower preferably, definatly not faster atleast.

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

A more accurate description of this would be "Steven said several things, but I've only heard one that sounds similar to what I said" xD

He said all the several things I said. And all the stuff that's in the wiki.
You are correct that I did not hear him say "I would be OK if it took 3 months or 25 months or infinite months to reach Level 25 Adventurer."

RocketFarmer

My take away from what Steven said was that level 25-50 are still in the neighborhood of unknown and there are different opinions/debates on leveling within Intrepid.

Generally their 225 hour statement may be true, but with all things AoC, this is an Alpha and is subject to change. It doesn’t sound like leveling speed is one of those unchanging elements. For Alpha 2, however, it’s looking like we’ll get an indication up to level 25, and we’ll have to see what tweaks come from that.

We do know nonlinear leveling is part of the design. I think most players will want to get to their secondary archetype augments sooner rather than later. 100 hours to get to that point would seem to be a decent time to learn or relearn your skills and combos. I think there also needs to be enough of a time sink to support the lower level gear economy. So as we test, they should get feedback on whether or not those lower levels of crafting feel right. Guess the same would apply to other level experiences than the character power level. I hope they experiment in alpha 2 to find that sweet spot.

I thing Dygz’s concern for Hell levels may still exist, at least at the higher levels which it will be a while before we get the opportunity to test. Really depends on decisions they make going forward. We know individuals on the team were involved in creating the games he experienced these Hell levels, and they seem to have a nostalgic view.

The complicating factor in leveling speed, especially as you get into higher levels of play, is the XP penalty for death. That will be different for each player, and the PVX nature of the game may compound that. A strong PVE player, but weak PVP player, or vice versa, may collect a significant XP debt that slows progression. That could be another version of Hell levels. A lot of that would depend on whether you can choose to play exclusively PVE or PVP. Design goals is to build community and have player friction. It’s going to be a while before we can test this.

So the 225 average can also be expressed as an average of averages. Different players will experience different leveling speeds. Oddly enough, that speed may be faster for those who desire slower speeds due to their leveling efficiency, or slower for those who desire a faster leveling speed for similar reasons. I don’t envy Intrepid on player satisfaction on this point.

Flanker

RocketFarmer wrote: »

The complicating factor in leveling speed, especially as you get into higher levels of play, is the XP penalty for death.

Seen that in Lineage 2 on official servers (where reaching the level cap took roughly ~2.5 - 3 years of playing 8-12h/day. Death penalty was very punishing, but people found a solution: there were healers who could come and res you (and also recover 80% of lost XP by doing so). Alternatively, it could be anyone who had a Blessed Scroll of Resurrection (that recovers 100% of XP). That worked in majority of cases.

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Generally their 225 hour statement may be true, but with all things AoC, this is an Alpha and is subject to change.

I'd be actually surprised if it's still the case, even at this point. Because if it's true, then 1-25 takes 100 hours and 25-50 takes what? The remaining 125 hours?

Even if you make a very wrong calculation and assume that each level from 1-25 takes an equal amount of time, it would be 4 hours per level. Obviously, it's not the case and we know that first 10-15 levels will be fast the remaining 10-15 levels will take more time. So 24-25 alone can take somewhere around 6-8 hours. Even if you take the bare minimum of 6h and wrongfully assume that all levels from 25-50 take 6h each - then it would already be ~150 hours. But once again, we know it can't be that way and every new level will require more time. As a result, I'm pretty skeptical that 225h is still valid, but we shall see.

Dygz

I'm not really concerned about Hell Levels for 225 hours to Level 50.
I am concerned when it's systemically restricted 450 hours minimum or 4 months or 6 months or 50 months or infinite months to Level 50.
Reaching Level 50 Adventurer in Ashes is not the end of Leveling - there are other progression paths besides Adventurer.

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

Ah flanker you miss me so much you are now just posting about me QQ I wasn't going to post anything after the video I think Steven summed it up pretty good! Plus it is called a job flanker and responsibilities I swear your like the having a third child but with high functioning autism.

Thoughts:
> If first ~10-15 levels are fast, 1-25 "roughly takes 100 hours" and XP curve is not linear, I'd actually be surprised to find out that it all somehow magically adds up to ~225 hours, especially taking into account him saying "he prefers it to be somewhat grindy".
> A curve change from ~10-25/15-25 is clearly not gonna get back to linear after level 25. So if 1-25 takes ~100 hours, I probably wouldn't expect 25-50 to be 125-150 hours. Probably something close to, at least 300h for the whole 1-50.
> If it's the case, then it's a bit better obviously, but in general - doesn't change the situation dramatically. A few extra weeks or a month for an average player won't really make that huge of a difference in MMO.
> But if it's the case, still better than nothing[/b][/quote]

Glad to see you found a paper bag to breath into and calm down. As for your thoughts wait for it I agree pretty much although I said before probably a +/- 50 hour variable which put it about 275 total but I could now see 300ish is probably more realistic after hearing Steven. Remember though this is the players who are racing to this finish not the regular player who is crafting, exploring and otherwise trying to enjoy the game even if they are playing 30 to 40 hours a week for them I would say at least double that estimate!

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

Ah flanker you miss me so much

Of course!

You know what else do I miss?

The answer to the question I've asked you 4 times already and it's the 5th one, that you are clearly not capable of providing. Is that true, huh?

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

Zehlan wrote: »

Ah flanker you miss me so much

Of course!

You know what else do I miss?

The answer to the question I've asked you 4 times already and it's the 5th one, that you are clearly not capable of providing. Is that true, huh?

I don't answer your questions because your replies are usually you took my words out of context or you manipulated the question. Plus I find your questions are usually nothing more than diversions a simple attempt to pull someone away from a flawed argument not a bad tactic but time consuming. I don't wish to engage in that I have way to much going on atm to waste my time on it otherwise I would especially a verbal one. I think you also miss the point when I say majority because if the majority after alpha 2 said we want level to take 3 time as long as it will currently I would be fine with that because the people have spoken. How long levelling is in a game is not what retains the most amount of players it's what levelling speed the most amount of players want that retains the most players because if they don't wanna play how do you retain them. I think you have lost sight of the MMO part of mmorpg. Players make the content the game is just the car we're all just riding in!

If your question is do I want a 1v1 debate I am not interested at the moment but once things settle down for me and we get to play some alpha 2 I would be up for a discussion. That's the real conversation we all will need to have anyway , everything else right now is just speculation.

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

I don't answer your questions because your replies are usually you took my words out of context or you manipulated the question. Plus I find your questions are usually nothing more than diversions a simple attempt to pull someone away from a flawed argument not a bad tactic but time consuming. I don't wish to engage in that I have way to much going on atm to waste my time on it otherwise I would especially a verbal one. I think you also miss the point when I say majority because if the majority after alpha 2 said we want level to take 3 time as long as it will currently I would be fine with that because the people have spoken. How long levelling is in a game is not what retains the most amount of players it's what levelling speed the most amount of players want that retains the most players because if they don't wanna play how do you retain them. I think you have lost sight of the MMO part of mmorpg. Players make the content the game is just the car we're all just riding in!

If your question is do I want a 1v1 debate I am not interested at the moment but once things settle down for me and we get to play some alpha 2 I would be up for a discussion. That's the real conversation we all will need to have anyway , everything else right now is just speculation.

Bla-bla-bla, point proven. You've sent a random PDF you found online with the level of understanding about what's written there close to non-existent and threw it in, thinking that it somehow proves your point. Little did you know, that I will read it and ask you a simple question about it.

But here you are, not capable of answering it and finally coming up with a lame excuse after the 5th time you've been asked to give an answer.

How do I know that this is a bs excuse? Very simple: instead of writing it, you could have simply given an answer - you didn't. And your "limited time" is another bs - there is a thing called "Last active" on your profile. You've been on the forum multiple times since I asked you the question. And you've spent time here.

> Debunked your nonsense again
> Debunked your lame excuse again

Ulderek

Slow leveling will be great as long as the game is fun to play!

Zehlan

@Flanker Oh your on about the how to use mathematics for understanding polling data lmao. You think I sent that to credit my argument lol Any kid in kindergarten can figure basic polling data it's not hard except for you.

You stalking me now too? Your starting to sound like your a little obsessed. I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

@Flanker Oh your on about the how to use mathematics for understanding polling data lmao. You think I sent that to credit my argument lol Any kid in kindergarten can figure basic polling data it's not hard except for you.

I don't think you sent that to prove your point - I know it for a fact. There are words "detailed clarification", right there. Extremely entertaining to see your lame excuses and backpedalling when you are cornered.

And... So... every kid in kindergarden knows that, but then... how come you don't? You do realize that you make yourself look like a clown now, don't you? It just looks... so sad

Zehlan wrote: »

You stalking me now too? Your starting to sound like your a little obsessed. I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

I'm calling out your bs and I don't mind making one click to open your profile to make sure that I'm right. Join the ranks of "victim card players" - you are not gonna be alone, your friend is already there waiting for you.

Zehlan wrote: »

I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

If you are not used to deal with people who are one step ahead of you - get used to it. You are hilariously predictable.

TL;DR - Your psychological profile and behavior pattern
> Not being able to have a meaningful discussion
> Waiting for someone to start talking against my point
> Jumping in aggresively and becoming a part of hive mind
> Hive mind destroyed - you are alone
> Trying to put two words together but it doesn't work, cuz you can't
> Get called out for your nonsense that can be debunked in 10 seconds
> Cry and play the victim card along with more bs nonsense

I probably wouldn't even want to talk to you publicly on a podcast anymore. With that mindset of yours - I'd literally be inside your head in 60 seconds which is not fun as I prefer worthy opponents when it comes to discussions/debates. As if you had balls for that anyway

Checkmate

Vargan

Personally, I would prefer a slower level time. I think of Ashes as a game about commitment, where picking your main class has weight and becomes part of your identity.

There are so many MMOs in which even casual players have a full stack of alts that can fulfill any role according to need, and everyone can do everything. That diminishes the importance of well thought out grouping.

@Flanker As a L2 vet, I completely understand your perspective, and I believe you bring up strong and valid points. Well done handling all the vitriol thrown your way in this thread.

nanfoodle

Flanker wrote: »

Zehlan wrote: »

@Flanker Oh your on about the how to use mathematics for understanding polling data lmao. You think I sent that to credit my argument lol Any kid in kindergarten can figure basic polling data it's not hard except for you.

I don't think you sent that to prove your point - I know it for a fact. There are words "detailed clarification", right there. Extremely entertaining to see your lame excuses and backpedalling when you are cornered.

And... So... every kid in kindergarden knows that, but then... how come you don't? You do realize that you make yourself look like a clown now, don't you? It just looks... so sad

Zehlan wrote: »

You stalking me now too? Your starting to sound like your a little obsessed. I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

I'm calling out your bs and I don't mind making one click to open your profile to make sure that I'm right. Join the ranks of "victim card players" - you are not gonna be alone, your friend is already there waiting for you.

Zehlan wrote: »

I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

If you are not used to deal with people who are one step ahead of you - get used to it. You are hilariously predictable.

TL;DR - Your psychological profile and behavior pattern
> Not being able to have a meaningful discussion
> Waiting for someone to start talking against my point
> Jumping in aggresively and becoming a part of hive mind
> Hive mind destroyed - you are alone
> Trying to put two words together but it doesn't work, cuz you can't
> Get called out for your nonsense that can be debunked in 10 seconds
> Cry and play the victim card along with more bs nonsense

I probably wouldn't even want to talk to you publicly on a podcast anymore. With that mindset of yours - I'd literally be inside your head in 60 seconds which is not fun as I prefer worthy opponents when it comes to discussions/debates. As if you had balls for that anyway

Checkmate

Checkmate? LOL Your been at this thread going for weeks and the best you got from Steven is he will take feedback from the A2 testers. My guess is you won't like the feedback the masses give. I know I won't. I like 220hrs for the main progression. My guess most will want it much shorter. I hope Steven sticks to his plan.

Flanker

nanfoodle wrote: »

Checkmate?

Dude, if you don't realize that it was me replying specifically to Zehlan and debunking his flawed so-called "logic", I recommend you to read the thread again, as you clearly miss the context. It has nothing to do with what we heard from Steven.

nanfoodle wrote: »

LOL Your been at this thread going for weeks and the best you got from Steven is he will take feedback from the A2 testers. My guess is you won't like the feedback the masses give. I know I won't. I like 220hrs for the main progression. My guess most will want it much shorter. I hope Steven sticks to his plan.

I like it when people hear what they want to hear instead of what they've been told.

This is what we've heard and that's the brief conclusions we can make at this point. Obviously, the end result will also depend on testing.

Flanker wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Looks about on par with what he's gone with before, about 2 months playing 5-6 hours per day. Funny to hear there's push for it to be shorter than that within the dev team itself

I mean, what he said is:
> First ~10-15 levels will be relatively fast (exact number is not known yet), so that people don't suffer at the start ;
> Reaching level 25 will roughly take 100 hours and the XP curve is not gonna be linear.
> He prefers it to be in more of a grindy side of things.

Thoughts:
> If first ~10-15 levels are fast, 1-25 "roughly takes 100 hours" and XP curve is not linear, I'd actually be surprised to find out that it all somehow magically adds up to ~225 hours, especially taking into account him saying "he prefers it to be somewhat grindy".
> A curve change from ~10-25/15-25 is clearly not gonna get back to linear after level 25. So if 1-25 takes ~100 hours, I probably wouldn't expect 25-50 to be 125-150 hours. Probably something close to, at least 300h for the whole 1-50.
> If it's the case, then it's a bit better obviously, but in general - doesn't change the situation dramatically. A few extra weeks or a month for an average player won't really make that huge of a difference in MMO.
> But if it's the case, still better than nothing

nanfoodle

Ooo I read it.

Flanker

nanfoodle wrote: »

Ooo I read it.

Mhm xD

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

Zehlan wrote: »

@Flanker Oh your on about the how to use mathematics for understanding polling data lmao. You think I sent that to credit my argument lol Any kid in kindergarten can figure basic polling data it's not hard except for you.

I don't think you sent that to prove your point - I know it for a fact. There are words "detailed clarification", right there. Extremely entertaining to see your lame excuses and backpedalling when you are cornered.

And... So... every kid in kindergarden knows that, but then... how come you don't? You do realize that you make yourself look like a clown now, don't you? It just looks... so sad

Zehlan wrote: »

You stalking me now too? Your starting to sound like your a little obsessed. I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

I'm calling out your bs and I don't mind making one click to open your profile to make sure that I'm right. Join the ranks of "victim card players" - you are not gonna be alone, your friend is already there waiting for you.

Zehlan wrote: »

I must say that's a little creepy but from these threads i am sure that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than just creepy. lol

If you are not used to deal with people who are one step ahead of you - get used to it. You are hilariously predictable.

TL;DR - Your psychological profile and behavior pattern
> Not being able to have a meaningful discussion
> Waiting for someone to start talking against my point
> Jumping in aggresively and becoming a part of hive mind
> Hive mind destroyed - you are alone
> Trying to put two words together but it doesn't work, cuz you can't
> Get called out for your nonsense that can be debunked in 10 seconds
> Cry and play the victim card along with more bs nonsense

I probably wouldn't even want to talk to you publicly on a podcast anymore. With that mindset of yours - I'd literally be inside your head in 60 seconds which is not fun as I prefer worthy opponents when it comes to discussions/debates. As if you had balls for that anyway

Checkmate

I am literally living imside your head rent free aren't I! Wow I will stop now I should know better than to tease someone who is obviously mentally ill.

P.s. Talked to jesus the other day and he said he had no clue on how to walk on water until you showed him. Amazing, just amazing, one of a kind a special boy what would the world do without you lol Ok now I will stop, maybe. I do like free rent!

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

I am literally living imside your head rent free aren't I! Wow I will stop now I should know better than to tease someone who is obviously mentally ill.

"No, you!" mentality. Truly impressive. Please don't give up, that's how you prove your point

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

I mean, what he said is:
> First ~10-15 levels will be relatively fast (exact number is not known yet), so that people don't suffer at the start ;
> Reaching level 25 will roughly take 100 hours and the XP curve is not gonna be linear.
> He prefers it to be in more of a grindy side of things.

We all already understood that the moment we learned years ago that it's intended to be 225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer. That is not new info.
That's the way Leveling in RPGs work traditionally work: Not linear and the ealier Levels are quicker to reach than the final Levels.

Flanker wrote: »

If it's the case, then it's a bit better obviously, but in general - doesn't change the situation dramatically. A few extra weeks or a month for an average player won't really make that huge of a difference in MMO.

A few months makes a dramatic difference to the time it takes to reach the next Level during the journey to Level 50 - and, more importantly, to reach the signature abilities, skills and stats that are associated with the Primary Archetype.
It especially is an issue for players who only have 2 hour play sessions rather than 16 hour pay sessions - because they are still going to want to see a reasonable increase on the XP progress bar for the time they have spent focused on progressing in their Primary Archetype each game session.

In EQ, I'm going to want my Druid to get Spirit of The Wind. And that can't just arbitrarily take twice as long as it should just because someone wants it to take longer to reach "Endgame".
In WoW, I'm going to want my Druid to get Cat Form and then Flight Form - and that can't just arbitrarily take twice as long as it should just because someone wants it to take longer to reach "Endgame".
In Ashes, if I want it to take weeks or months longer to reach max Level Adventurer, I can choose to do so by focusing on other fun progression paths or I can choose to continue Leveling after max Level Adventurer by Leveling those other progression paths.
In Ashes, there is no good reason to systemically prolong Leveling in the Adventurer path past 225 hours.

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