Grinding

Hi,

Of course I know that this is an alpha, that nothing is final, that theyre still working on pretty much everything, but I guess the alpha should give us a propper idea what the game is or at least wants to be. Because of that I want to talk about grinding.

I know for some people grinding is peak gameplay and that some people here really like to sh*t on people that are just not hardcore and progress oriented enough to farm hours and hours and that there is also some form of gatekeeping around it.

But right now you become like level 5ish, and after that you have two options: you grind mobs over and over again, or you grind resources.

You grind one spot, to be able to get to the next higher grind spot and at some point you're done and max level, and you did several hundred hours the exact same thing without any meaningful gameplay, nothing beyond pressing a few buttons.

I really enjoy the world, the combat, the crafting, the complexity of all mechanics and I know that grinding in some form makes total sense. Some achievements should be locked behind time, also the design choice of relatively long leveling is fine, but I disagree with this dull and repetitive approach in almost everything right now.

What is you guys opinion on that?

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Flashfirez23

It would be nice to have more worthwhile options to progress your character. Ideally questing, mob grinding, dungeons, raiding, PvP, and exploration would all be viable ways to level up. So, there’s variety in how you progress. If it is going to take over 200+ hours to hit max level. There should be enough engaging content to spend that much time playing the game.

Garrtok

Yes, like for example in warhammer online, basically everything gave XP. Crafting, exploring, you had pvp zones for your level range, quests... Not just grinding

Veeshan

Quest, Commision both hunting and gathering, gathering and crafting xp all needs a buff to add more option for leveling by atleast 3 times there current value

iARN

I'm not sure I understand your point with this post? Are you asking for these things from the perspective that they will never be in the game because they aren't in this stage of Alpha, or are you just making suggestions of what you want in the Alpha right now?

They made it pretty clear that all the systems are not in, and this isn't a game, it's a testing and concept proofing environment, otherwise this would be labeled "beta".

Eventually there will be actual quests, Story Arc quests, more events, all the economic and political warfare of the nodes. The cat and mouse of industry players and those who want to steal from them, etc. I think there is a lot there that is promised, and I think so far Intrepid has delivered exceptionally on pretty much everything they've said they wanted to achieve so far.

Phase 1 is the worst it's ever going to be, and as each phase progresses, it will be easier to see and appreciate as a game and not a testing environment. Phase 2 will have story arcs, dynamic dungeons, dynamic events, and a lot more content in general.

Check the link below for the roadmap. Perhaps phase 1 isn't for your tastes and you can try Phase 2 or 3. tbh, I wouldn't exactly call Phase 1 a picnic.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alpha-2

Nova_terra

Something else to consider is that quests are (in my estimation) not being implemented how they want and not really "worth it" with some tuning that would probably provide connections to do things like "hunt bosses" or farm an area for awhile and get a decent uplift on xp/glint etc. Which will lead to caravans, or crafting etc. At this moment we are not seeing all the pieces connected, but they are present in some form. So in this phase 1 iteration, I am more than happy to grind to learn rotations, experience things so I can help aid the process moving forward.

Garrtok

iARN wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your point with this post? Are you asking for these things from the perspective that they will never be in the game because they aren't in this stage of Alpha, or are you just making suggestions of what you want in the Alpha right now?

They made it pretty clear that all the systems are not in, and this isn't a game, it's a testing and concept proofing environment, otherwise this would be labeled "beta".

Eventually there will be actual quests, Story Arc quests, more events, all the economic and political warfare of the nodes. The cat and mouse of industry players and those who want to steal from them, etc. I think there is a lot there that is promised, and I think so far Intrepid has delivered exceptionally on pretty much everything they've said they wanted to achieve so far.

Phase 1 is the worst it's ever going to be, and as each phase progresses, it will be easier to see and appreciate as a game and not a testing environment. Phase 2 will have story arcs, dynamic dungeons, dynamic events, and a lot more content in general.

Check the link below for the roadmap. Perhaps phase 1 isn't for your tastes and you can try Phase 2 or 3. tbh, I wouldn't exactly call Phase 1 a picnic.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alpha-2

I guess the basic intend of progression should be visible. I don't think that they want to change the current behavior drastically.
Iam criticising the current experience.

iARN

Garrtok wrote: »

I guess the basic intend of progression should be visible. I don't think that they want to change the current behavior drastically.
Iam criticising the current experience.

I see. My 2 cents is I would say be patient. This phase one, which is going to end around December, is mostly to test stability. A lot of the progression systems are bare bones currently. Alpha by definition does not contain all features. I believe there will be more than enough time to course correct, as this current Alpha 2 stage will likely last at least 18 months, perhaps more. I think things will shape up as time goes on, and we can give our feedback along the way.

While I understand your concerns, and they are valid feelings to have, I think everything you mention is coming in one shape or another starting in December. By May of next year, granted no delays, I think we may be seeing more of the full experience as intended.

Blip

Veeshan wrote: »

Quest, Commision both hunting and gathering, gathering and crafting xp all needs a buff to add more option for leveling by atleast 3 times there current value

I belive they intend to buff it they have said it all should be viable ways to level your character.

But I belive mobs will always be fastest.

But all other leveling paths must be buffed or we just have a boring time in the end.

Garrtok

Blip wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Quest, Commision both hunting and gathering, gathering and crafting xp all needs a buff to add more option for leveling by atleast 3 times there current value

I belive they intend to buff it they have said it all should be viable ways to level your character.

But I belive mobs will always be fastest.

But all other leveling paths must be buffed or we just have a boring time in the end.

If completing a quest gives you 200-5k XP and killing one elite mob gives you 1.5k grinding is the far more effective method

Veeshan

Blip wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Quest, Commision both hunting and gathering, gathering and crafting xp all needs a buff to add more option for leveling by atleast 3 times there current value

I belive they intend to buff it they have said it all should be viable ways to level your character.

But I belive mobs will always be fastest.

But all other leveling paths must be buffed or we just have a boring time in the end.

mobs should be faster cause you need to put together a party and all that to do it efficency however the other tasks are realy bad atm this also allows avenues for solo players or ways to gain decent XP while waiting fopr party slots to open up instead of twiddling your thumbs pretty much shouting LFG on chat

or for people who caant jump on for very long

novercalis

I'm a masochist. 200-250 hours is pretty low.

I want EQ level pacing. It felt amazing and an accomplishment when you reach the next level.

To give comparison:

Assuming a 4hr hours of play every night (maybe skipping a night here and there):

1-10 A couple days, at most (12-16 hours)
11-20 A week (28 hours)
21-30 Two weeks (56 hours)
31-40 Two to three weeks (84 hours)
41-50 A month (112 hours)
51 - 12 hrs
52 - 13 hrs
53 - 14 hrs
54 - 15 hrs
55 - 16 hrs
56 - 20 hrs
57 - 24 hrs
58 - 29 hrs
59 - 35 hrs
60 - 40 hrs

that is an estimated 510-514 hours.

Not everyone made it to 60 and that is okay. Casually playing would be 6 months, 20 hours or 4 hrs for 5 days.
Hell, it was common for some people make it to 60 in a year and never felt bad. because the content was extremely hard and rewarding. There was that Social aspect that just made it fun. Shooting the shit with people while hoping for a pixel to drop or progressing your level slowly but surely. This is the epitome and peak example of the Tortoise and the Hare. Stop betting on the hare and give the tortoise a chance.

====================

(meanwhile in 6 days, I made it to 22 in Ashes, putting in ~35 hours of active in-game time.

Slowing the pace of the game and having content every 5 level bracket is better than racing asap to the top.

That feeling of being level 30, and it might take you 3 levels, 5 days to grind and get that 1 item in Guk feels amazing and rewarding. Also knowing that item is probably gonna be with you for a long time. Unlike Classic Wow, you're upgrading gear every 2 days or less.

AoC should be like One Piece - Maybe The Real Treasure Was the Friends We Made Along the Way and you only gain this with a slower pace MMORPG. Let's stop feeding and catering to the TikTok, ADHD player base.

let's make MMORPG great again. Slower pace = more bonding with our group in-game or discord = fond memories down the road.

Garrtok

novercalis wrote: »

I'm a masochist. 200-250 hours is pretty low.

I want EQ level pacing. It felt amazing and an accomplishment when you reach the next level.

To give comparison:

Assuming a 4hr hours of play every night (maybe skipping a night here and there):

1-10 A couple days, at most (12-16 hours)
11-20 A week (28 hours)
21-30 Two weeks (56 hours)
31-40 Two to three weeks (84 hours)
41-50 A month (112 hours)
51 - 12 hrs
52 - 13 hrs
53 - 14 hrs
54 - 15 hrs
55 - 16 hrs
56 - 20 hrs
57 - 24 hrs
58 - 29 hrs
59 - 35 hrs
60 - 40 hrs

that is an estimated 510-514 hours.

Not everyone made it to 60 and that is okay. Casually playing would be 6 months, 20 hours or 4 hrs for 5 days.
Hell, it was common for some people make it to 60 in a year and never felt bad. because the content was extremely hard and rewarding. There was that Social aspect that just made it fun. Shooting the shit with people while hoping for a pixel to drop or progressing your level slowly but surely. This is the epitome and peak example of the Tortoise and the Hare. Stop betting on the hare and give the tortoise a chance.

====================

(meanwhile in 6 days, I made it to 22 in Ashes, putting in ~35 hours of active in-game time.

Slowing the pace of the game and having content every 5 level bracket is better than racing asap to the top.

That feeling of being level 30, and it might take you 3 levels, 5 days to grind and get that 1 item in Guk feels amazing and rewarding. Also knowing that item is probably gonna be with you for a long time. Unlike Classic Wow, you're upgrading gear every 2 days or less.

AoC should be like One Piece - Maybe The Real Treasure Was the Friends We Made Along the Way and you only gain this with a slower pace MMORPG. Let's stop feeding and catering to the TikTok, ADHD player base.

let's make MMORPG great again. Slower pace = more bonding with our group in-game or discord = fond memories down the road.

But the topic is not, that leveling is being slow or not, it's about the way of leveling and the leveling experience is boring if the only way is grinding

Nova_terra

Garrtok, remember that this is an Alpha and their first "pass" at figuring out XP values, viability of questing, etc. They have a vision for how they expect leveling to go, and people in the alpha are the people who will "in most cases" be the people this game is made for. I am enjoying the dificulty of leveling, but I seriously doubt they drew up how they expect this all to go and said "yep, Nova sitting at Highwayman Hills for 14 hours grinding the same 5 set of mobs is peak design". As it stands, questing is broken and in a lot of cases the areas quests aren't robust or evolving in any way. They have said time and time again that this is for stability and we will start seeing evolving content and direct starting in Phase 2 and 3 and beyond. If Alpha 2 - Phase 1 is boring come back when you feel like it isn't but if you believe you are playing a live game then you are seriously missing a step.

Garrtok

Nova_terra wrote: »

Garrtok, remember that this is an Alpha and their first "pass" at figuring out XP values, viability of questing, etc. They have a vision for how they expect leveling to go, and people in the alpha are the people who will "in most cases" be the people this game is made for. I am enjoying the dificulty of leveling, but I seriously doubt they drew up how they expect this all to go and said "yep, Nova sitting at Highwayman Hills for 14 hours grinding the same 5 set of mobs is peak design". As it stands, questing is broken and in a lot of cases the areas quests aren't robust or evolving in any way. They have said time and time again that this is for stability and we will start seeing evolving content and direct starting in Phase 2 and 3 and beyond. If Alpha 2 - Phase 1 is boring come back when you feel like it isn't but if you believe you are playing a live game then you are seriously missing a step.

Yes yes like stated in my initial post I do understand that this is an alpha. So let the gate keeping be and stuff like "you just don't understand" if the only feedback we should give is about stability, they can close 90% of the threads here.

iARN

OP is a non-post. It's totally pointless, also, Nobody is gatekeeping you, coming here with a chip on your shoulder is worse than the "gatekeepers" and "elitists" you claim exist, but I haven't seen.

Garrtok wrote: »

Hi,

Of course I know that this is an alpha, that nothing is final, that they're still working on pretty much everything, but I guess the alpha should give us a proper idea what the game is or at least wants to be. Because of that I want to talk about grinding.

I know for some people grinding is peak gameplay and that some people here really like to sh*t on people that are just not hardcore and progress oriented enough to farm hours and hours and that there is also some form of gatekeeping around it.

1. You said yourself, it's Alpha. Bare minimum is done, loads and loads of changes are coming. There is a roadmap to see what those things are ( https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alpha-2 ). Those things are the things you want in your initial post, so there is no problem. They come December '24 and May '25.

2. Many others, myself included, do not think grinding is peak gameplay. We just understand the situation. The situation is that this is what we're given at this time, because the other stuff isn't ready yet. What we have is what Intrepid has ready for us to see. Everything else isn't ready, or the tech isn't there yet to support everything you want, like quests & "meaningful gameplay" (which itself is silly, because they will be wiping many times going forward, meaning and progress at this time is an illusion)

Garrtok wrote: »

But right now you become like level 5ish, and after that you have two options: you grind mobs over and over again, or you grind resources.

You grind one spot, to be able to get to the next higher grind spot and at some point you're done and max level, and you did several hundred hours the exact same thing without any meaningful gameplay, nothing beyond pressing a few buttons.

I really enjoy the world, the combat, the crafting, the complexity of all mechanics and I know that grinding in some form makes total sense. Some achievements should be locked behind time, also the design choice of relatively long leveling is fine, but I disagree with this dull and repetitive approach in almost everything right now.

What is you guys opinion on that?

3. My opinion is you should perhaps provide some constructive feedback or solutions, instead of just complaining, or arguing with others who are attempting to explain to you why things are how they are at the current time, or better yet, not make a post about something that isn't a problem because List Item 1. and because the vision isn't and never will be just a grind fest, as you so poetically proposed in your OP

4. This weird narrative in your post is not reality. Nobody is gatekeeping, nobody wants to only kill mobs for hundreds of hours with no other content. But this client is at a stage where everything won't and can't be in. You do understand it won't be like this the entire time, yeah?

Garrtok wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

Garrtok, remember that this is an Alpha and their first "pass" at figuring out XP values, viability of questing, etc. They have a vision for how they expect leveling to go, and people in the alpha are the people who will "in most cases" be the people this game is made for. I am enjoying the dificulty of leveling, but I seriously doubt they drew up how they expect this all to go and said "yep, Nova sitting at Highwayman Hills for 14 hours grinding the same 5 set of mobs is peak design". As it stands, questing is broken and in a lot of cases the areas quests aren't robust or evolving in any way. They have said time and time again that this is for stability and we will start seeing evolving content and direct starting in Phase 2 and 3 and beyond. If Alpha 2 - Phase 1 is boring come back when you feel like it isn't but if you believe you are playing a live game then you are seriously missing a step.

Yes yes like stated in my initial post I do understand that this is an alpha. So let the gate keeping be and stuff like "you just don't understand" if the only feedback we should give is about stability, they can close 90% of the threads here.

You keep saying you understand this is an Alpha, but it seems you don't really understand what that means? I don't think anyone here, especially not Nova_terra, is gatekeeping you. Again, the reasons why things are how they are at this specific moment in time was carefully and clearly explained by Nove_terra, but you argue. It will come in time, it can't right this instant. The things you want don't exist, but they will, eventually. If you don't like the current state, come back in December or May, otherwise if you want to give feedback try to be more constructive, or maybe listen to the realities of what others are trying to tell you.

Nova_terra

Garrtok wrote: »

Nova_terra wrote: »

Garrtok, remember that this is an Alpha and their first "pass" at figuring out XP values, viability of questing, etc. They have a vision for how they expect leveling to go, and people in the alpha are the people who will "in most cases" be the people this game is made for. I am enjoying the dificulty of leveling, but I seriously doubt they drew up how they expect this all to go and said "yep, Nova sitting at Highwayman Hills for 14 hours grinding the same 5 set of mobs is peak design". As it stands, questing is broken and in a lot of cases the areas quests aren't robust or evolving in any way. They have said time and time again that this is for stability and we will start seeing evolving content and direct starting in Phase 2 and 3 and beyond. If Alpha 2 - Phase 1 is boring come back when you feel like it isn't but if you believe you are playing a live game then you are seriously missing a step.

Yes yes like stated in my initial post I do understand that this is an alpha. So let the gate keeping be and stuff like "you just don't understand" if the only feedback we should give is about stability, they can close 90% of the threads here.

I'm not sure what gatekeeping is happening here? You literally said "the leveling experience is boring if the only way is grinding". That's not much of a dissertation on MMO experiences as it relates to leveling. I was simply stating that the things you are discussing are extremely valid criticism but not really productive. They have a well laid out roadmap of the phases and what they are hoping to achieve and part of phase 2/3 is adding in variation to what is going on with nodes and how to add more experiences outside of mob grinding. Which leads me to what I said which is that they stated that phase 1 is a server function test first and foremost and that doesn't really cross streams with "mob grinding is boring, so we need more stuff".

novercalis

They've also said time and again that their inspiration is EQ, Linage and AA. beside AA, EQ/Lineage was about grinding and sticking to a spot for a hot while. I do not see that changing. Open world dungeons isn't going to be like WoW where you move through the content, it's going to end up with groups picking a spot, to grind and kill a name mob. We can see this in Carphin and Remnants.

Kalnazzar

Veeshan wrote: »

Quest, Commision both hunting and gathering, gathering and crafting xp all needs a buff to add more option for leveling by atleast 3 times there current value

It sounds like you're asking for gathering, hunting, and crafting XP to be heavily boosted so that leveling can be done effectively through solo activities. While I understand the desire for solo-friendly options, increasing these XP gains by such a large margin would actually shift the game towards a solo-focused style, which isn’t the core of Ashes of Creation. The game has always emphasized group-oriented gameplay and player-driven interactions as a defining feature.

If XP gains from crafting and gathering alone were boosted too high, players could level quickly and mostly through solo content, which would make group play and cooperative engagement feel less essential. Instead, a balanced approach where crafting and gathering offer meaningful rewards but still encourage players to participate in group content might be more in line with the game's vision, preserving the sense of a player-driven world where cooperation and alliances are key.

Ashes isn’t aiming to be a solo-centric game, so keeping these activities balanced with the game’s social focus is important for maintaining that immersive experience.

Garrtok

novercalis wrote: »

They've also said time and again that their inspiration is EQ, Linage and AA. beside AA, EQ/Lineage was about grinding and sticking to a spot for a hot while. I do not see that changing. Open world dungeons isn't going to be like WoW where you move through the content, it's going to end up with groups picking a spot, to grind and kill a name mob. We can see this in Carphin and Remnants.

Lineage is 20 years old. If I want to play an asia grinder I can also do that since 20 years now. The aim should be to offer good gameplay. Dull grinding is not good gameplay

Veeshan

Tbh the biggest issue with the grind right now isnt how long it takes to level its the options you have to level right now you only realy have 1 viable way and that farm mobs people will get sick of doing that task over and over again without anything inbetween.
once commision/quests/crafting/gathering yield somewhat decent XP it will assist in the grind since you can do these tasks solo and feel you are still making progress it shouldnt be as fast but it should be noticable which is isnt atm. They are aware of the pretty bad Xp rates here however so ill give them time to fix this of course

but tbh commision need to be like 3x the XP, Gathering needs to be 5-10x the XP and quests need to be like 5-10x the xp aswell it seems i havant done much questing so this is just a shot in the dark atm looking at the couple of quest i have actually done.
these avenues of character progression need to be atleast 50% the effiency compared to a solid group imo so twice as long to gain XP at max compared to farming in a solid group

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