Why I am not having fun in Alpha Two and think it will extend to the live game

I'll try to keep this constructive, but unfortunately I am highlighting concepts and situations that make the games direction not fun for me. I understand these are the direction of the game and won't be changing, but hey I'm here during the alpha phase I may as well give my feedback as that is the point.

I feel like a slave
I enjoy games where I can solo and make progress when my friends aren't on and I can group up for fun times when they are. I tend to play with a smaller group, usually 4-5 people but up to 8-10. None of my usual friends are in the alpha, so in order to make progress its best to join random groups or a guild. I think its a good thing to incentivise group play, so erring on the side of it being easier to get things done in a group rather than solo is probably a good thing.

The way I see it there are three main archetypes of playing:
1. Solo - Can't get much done, could maybe be a crafter, but you are at a disadvantage over a group / guild for every aspect of the game including crafting.
2. Small group / guild - Now you can get stuff done, but you really have little to no influence over the game, you won't be doing anything large scale, like wars or raids or running towns etc
3. Large guild - You get to participate in all aspects of the game, but you have the overhead of having to manage people and personalities eating into spending time just playing the game.

I've done option 3 before both as a member and as an officer, and I don't find it fun. With options 1 or 2 I just wouldnt get to participate in the whole game, and I feel like a slave because x% of my time and effort goes to help those larger guilds in the form of taxes to enable their gameplay. I find it demotivating.

Yes I realise this is the intended direction of the game, Im just giving feedback.

The unfairness of PVP always on
I am sure a lot of people have had this situation happen to them already:

Spend 1-2 hrs forming a group to farm for xp by spamming global chat
Finally get your group with the right composition and find a spot that works well for your group and start farming
Farming fine for an hour or so, then a higher level group rolls in
1 person from the higher level group flags and starts dpsing your healer, not to kill them, they dont want to go corrupted, just to make it harder for you
The other group also starts kiting mobs they think will kill you onto you for good measure, trying to get the healer killed that they have at half health
One person in your group gets frustrated and flags, and the entire other group of higher level players flags and instantly kills them
Group falls apart

When this happened to me I immediately logged out even though I had planned to play for a few more hours. These kinds of systems enable players with an advantage to prevent other players that are disadvantaged from playing the game. I've never found fun in a game via this kind of activity and its definitely not fun being on the receiving end.

Yes I realise this is the intended direction of the game, Im just giving feedback.

What does losing materials on death achieve?
This perspective mostly comes from playing a tank, and if I did my job well I was going to die more than my party. I don't really need to expand on this one except to say if it was a solo game with fair pvp I wouldn't have a problem with it, I kinda like the challenge in that scenario of death being meaningful. I like challenges in games, I just want them to be fair.

Yes I realise this is the intended direction of the game, Im just giving feedback.

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Comments

nanfoodle

Some of the things your saying is off. Like small guilds will be able to stand toe to toe with large guilds. You have two options when leveling your guild. Every time your guild levels, you can spend points to make your guild larger. Max level into max size will give you a guild of 300. Or you keep your guild smaller and spend the points on buffing your guild. Making the small guild more powerful. Look up guild progression. Small guilds can impact the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_progression

Soloing is important, pick a class that solos well like Fighter, Ranger or the Summoner.

Tixl

So you think small guilds (10-20) will be able to run towns, castles, get the best gear, win guild wars against large guilds etc etc?

I've gotten the impression so far that is more likely to be for 200+ member communities and the 10-20 player guilds will be pay paying taxes to those guilds to enable them to participate in that gameplay. Maybe I misunderstand how that part works as I can't see a way to access it in the alpha. So if I put together a 10-20 person guild I could do all of the game content?

Regarding soloing, the always on pvp means I can just be harassed by any mismatch (higher level, bigger groups) out of doing content as a core part of the gameplay.

dirich

I agree that right now solo player experience hasn't really been properly developed, but I saw a video of the lead designer mentioning it himself. He said he wants to give something to solos too, so we'll have to see later.

Drop material on death - 100% agree, I've mentioned in some other post as well.
One can make an argument where as a pvp mechanic you get to have some spoils if you win, but in pve it's just a pointless waste of player time - not because someone can pick it up, but because I've seen my body despawn before my eyes without being able to loot when I died a bit too far away from a respawn point.

Garrtok

nanfoodle wrote: »

Some of the things your saying is off. Like small guilds will be able to stand toe to toe with large guilds. You have two options when leveling your guild. Every time your guild levels, you can spend points to make your guild larger. Max level into max size will give you a guild of 300. Or you keep your guild smaller and spend the points on buffing your guild. Making the small guild more powerful. Look up guild progression. Small guilds can impact the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_progression

Soloing is important, pick a class that solos well like Fighter, Ranger or the Summoner.

Nope sorry, that small guilds are even close to big guilds will never happen, that is just marketing talk.

Dune1

I'll add different non-fun aspects.

Only 5 people currently get flying mounts per server. There's no chance for the rest of the population to get to fly. Of those people, how many of them are in small guilds / are solo players? None, I presume. If this doesn't change, I probably won't play the game when it goes live, flying is just too OP and frustrating for those that don't have it.

Only one person per node gets to choose the direction the node goes, what buildings are built, etc.

I too keep coming away feeling not motivated to play. The game is a complete and utter grind - worse than Korean games I've played. The same could be said for crafting, I spend hours cutting trees and picking ore, then crafting with what I find for little progress. The stuff I harvest is generally low quality. There's not much hope for making something cool and this is supposed to be a crafting game, where the best stuff is player made.

This goes with the previous, gatherable nodes take too long to respawn, or in the case of trees (especially the western larch) take too long to grow.

Also, it's nearly impossible to find groups. This is supposed to be a group friendly, solo-unfriendly game. Yet, there are no tools to improve finding groups.

Uncommon Sense

The current Alpha map and node scale is less than 2% of the final product.

This test is not even the game...its rudimentary basic combat mechanics to stress the current servers and network.

None of the guild or economy systems is remotely close enough to be making even basic assumptions.

Wait till Beta testing.

If you're having an issue with a larger guild perhaps you should communicate with other smaller guilds and form an alliance to achieve a common goal.

Ebro Epaito

They are a few years away from a final product which they have mentioned about 3,000 times....play something else until they get it finished or stay and understand this is a work in progress.

CROW3

I’d rather have no flying than more folks having a chance to fly.

bloodprophet

Dune1 wrote: »

I'll add different non-fun aspects.

Only 5 people currently get flying mounts per server. There's no chance for the rest of the population to get to fly. Of those people, how many of them are in small guilds / are solo players? None, I presume. If this doesn't change, I probably won't play the game when it goes live, flying is just too OP and frustrating for those that don't have it.

Only one person per node gets to choose the direction the node goes, what buildings are built, etc.

I too keep coming away feeling not motivated to play. The game is a complete and utter grind - worse than Korean games I've played. The same could be said for crafting, I spend hours cutting trees and picking ore, then crafting with what I find for little progress. The stuff I harvest is generally low quality. There's not much hope for making something cool and this is supposed to be a crafting game, where the best stuff is player made.

This goes with the previous, gatherable nodes take too long to respawn, or in the case of trees (especially the western larch) take too long to grow.

Also, it's nearly impossible to find groups. This is supposed to be a group friendly, solo-unfriendly game. Yet, there are no tools to improve finding groups.

The goal is closer to ten total flying mounts. Some will come from boss drops.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Flying_mounts

On Lyneth I have never had a problem finding a group. Either as mage or cleric.

SmileGurney

nanfoodle wrote: »

Some of the things your saying is off. Like small guilds will be able to stand toe to toe with large guilds. You have two options when leveling your guild. Every time your guild levels, you can spend points to make your guild larger. Max level into max size will give you a guild of 300. Or you keep your guild smaller and spend the points on buffing your guild. Making the small guild more powerful. Look up guild progression. Small guilds can impact the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_progression

Soloing is important, pick a class that solos well like Fighter, Ranger or the Summoner.

That system is purely theoretical atm, we don't know exactly how it works and whatever the smaller guild benefits will genuinely compensate you for non-zerg setup. Also I fully expect guilds to "game" the guild and alliance systems with under-the-table agreements and such. Intrepid cannot do anything about this.

On the topic of restricted flying mounts: they are a mistake, give a too big advantage from the scouting and pvp perspective. They are not adding to, but literally removing depth from pvp. There should be no flying mounts in the game.

kadimir

As a person who has typically stayed guildless in most games(typically making my own fake guild just to avoid invites) I can say that this game will never be close to optimal to be a solo player... what I *DO* ask for, is that not every system in the game disproportionately effect solo players.

PART ONE; systems being against solo players
===================================================================================

Group vs Solo farming; Group EXP being significantly better combined with Loot drops for group farming completely outclassing solo farming in every way to the point that you're literally wasting your time in comparison. Solo mob areas should provide another resource proposition that you DONT get from group farms, i.e. better glint per hour, better crafting mats, ect.

PvP; currently, if you have conflict outside of town - someone trying to move in on your farm/gather your nodes ect, big guilds have the option of bypassing the corruption system entirely, by just declaring a guild war on the smaller guild. The smaller guild would not do this, as it would simply cause them more of a headache running into the bigger guild constantly - but the bigger guild would have no concerns at all for declaring war. Moreover, said big guild is ALSO likely going to be insulated. Lets say it's the guild Nova Ordem III or Axiom Supreme, this means that not only does their guild outnumber yours, but even if you wanted to war against them, you would have to actually war 5+ guilds, some of which you might not even know off the top of your head - so the vast majority of their guild is actually insulated from pvp retaliation anyways, and if your group of 5-6 wanted to declare war against the guilds of the players in the opposing farming group, you'd have to declare war on potentially 2-3 guilds, meaning your group of 6 now just flagged against ~150 players.

Corruption; currently, if you do end up finding another solo player that you decide to square up with, they will 99.9% of the time run away, because the game has told these players that they are the tourist who broke down in the wrong side of town and not to even look at another player because you have no chance. If they decide they aren't going to fight back but still insist on farming in your spot /ect you cannot possibly justify actually going red. Group players? they can just go red, drop group - let the other person kill them and res them, so they can just pick their stuff back up - all of which they can do before you even get back. Big guild players? they can afford to lose their gear anyways, because they have easy access to crafters who can just print another one, or there are plenty of spares in the guild bank. Even if they had to run around without weapons, their guild could take them to grind no problem. No such service exists for a solo player, infact a solo player CANNOT craft their own gear in the end game, by design has no way of being self sufficient.

Forming Groups; This might seem like a no brainer, of course guilds will have an easier time forming groups for things... DUH! And I would say sure, but one side effect like it or not, is that if this game has no group forming utility, LFG, ect - this will impact solo players significantly more than guilds. Guilds already had the advantage that the players in their group are significantly more likely to be competent, significantly less likely to ninja loot, and already coordinate better due to being on voice/coms - now the guild also has the advantage of simply being able to find a group in a reasonable time in the first place.

I'm not suggesting this game get a magical group finder button, raid finder, ect and turn into WoW - but I think it's important when designing content that the developers REALLY understand the impact on each system swaying the odds further and further away from the solo player. When designing a system, you should ask yourself - does this inherently benefit guilds while increasing difficulty for solo players? If yes - you should start over. It's simple, GUILDS ARE ALREADY GOING TO BE BETTER AT EVERYTHING IN THE GAME, THEY DO NOT NEED ANYMORE HELP TO DO THAT, YOU DO NOT NEED TO REWARD THEM AS THEY ARE ALREADY BUILT TO SUCCEED WITHOUT GAME SYSTEMS COMPOUNDING THEIR SUCCESS.

PART TWO; coming to terms with reality.
===================================================================================

that said, as a solo player you need to be realistic when it comes to the advantages that guilds have that ARENT part of game systems.

You have no realistic chance of impacting nodes/politics. The server is going to do what it's going to do, and you are along for the ride. If you don't like the ride you've been given, you might want to start looking for a more peaceful node. There is no system that could possibly be fair where the decisions of 1 player is comparable to 50+ players with a single goal. You don't get to be mayor, imagine every single independent running in an election now, except now there isn't even any real steps to getting on the ballot so the independent vote is every more diluted.

You will be looking for groups. Solo farming should be lucrative in a different way to group farming - this would be good game design in general, but this will never replace group farming. Group farming should always have an exclusive benefit as well - in order to actually make people want to group for it. If you've ever played Diablo II/Diablo IV/PoE - in those games it's worse in almost every way to farm in a group outside of a few activities designed for it. You cannot expect the game to redesign group content because you refuse to try to form a group. If you don't like the time you have to spend forming a group, that's not the game's problem. Outside of some basic looking for group tools, you cannot expect the game to have an automatic grouping tool that teleports you to the dungeon ect, as that is incompatible with the core game ideas.

Guilds will always have the advantage. I will strongly argue to prevent game systems from making the disparity worse - but even if every single game system was removed - a guild will always be superior. Guilds have more players, which means more of them have experienced and gained more knowledge in total that they can share freely with each other. This means every good grind spot, this means knowing the optimal way of doing something, they have all the "hindsight is 2020" benefits as well. When you do something and you learn half way through that you could have done it way easier knowing what you know now - well guilds pass that along. Guilds are able and willing to assist each other, in ways you cannot expect another player to selflessly assist you.

PART THREE; why preservation is important
=====================================================================================

Regardless of your perspective, preserving the feasibility of solo game play is important. As a solo-centric player I have had my own reasons for staying solo, and understanding what makes solo players solo should be important as a developer as well.

My personal reasons?
1: People suck at video games. Sure guilds don't have to deal with pugs, but in a guild you have to deal with guildies - which from my experience is worse. A random player I have no problem telling them they are trash, kicking them, flagging on them if they irritate me enough. A guildie? you have to be nice to - and tolerate, even if you cannot stand them. I know I'm not the only one who has to tolerate people they can't stand at work, be it coworkers, supervisors, or customers - you have to tolerate people you're forced to be nice to enough that I don't feel like coming home and doing the same thing in a guild. Recently played with someone who shares guilds with one of my friends, they were needing on every item even though they'd gotten a conflicting item in the same slot, and wasn't using it anyways. I called the player out about it and they ended up giving me the item, but had they not - what was I going to do? Solo i'd just drop group flag and kill the idiot, or the most generous response I'd atleast tell them what I think of them. In a group with a real life friend and his guildy - how would that go down? Force him to do nothing as I fight his guildy? cause friction with him and his guild, or him and myself? In a game where who you associate yourself with matters, I enjoy the freedom of not having responsibility for how my guildies act, likewise, I like the idea of being able to square up without risking a guild war because of my personal issue with a player.

2: I have been in guilds, sometimes I don't mind sucking it up and just joining, especially if I'm having fun playing with them anyways, or they play at the level that I don't need to tolerate them - because the guild wont tolerate poor performance. That said, real life happens. As it stands - I have a career that is more important to me than any game, and my days off switch every week, so I will never have the same day off every week. Likewise, the days I do work, I work long hours and at best have maybe 2 hours to play at night? This makes arranging consistent groups nearly impossible for me, unless the content only requires a short bit of time every night. This significantly changes my goals, as most competitive play just isn't accessible this way. I assume many others still trying to play this genre have real life obstacles to playing consistently and don't want to bother a guild with their inconsistency or log on and not have the freedom to work on what they want to work on because of guild needs.

3. New players do not spawn in already in a large guild. I remember Mortal Online specifically, I was really enjoying the game until I left the initial area and couldnt progress at all, because the materials needed to progress were all locked away behind a few guilds that controlled all of it. When you can't even continue progressing and exploring a game because it's locked behind guilds, that player is not going to suddenly join a guild just to see if they actually like the game - they will just quit. That new player should be able to continue progressing logically, exploring the game and it's systems - and it should happen naturally that the player end up playing with members of a guild and deciding to join. Not hitting a brick wall and blindly applying to any of the guild names who hold those territories.

nanfoodle

Tixl wrote: »

So you think small guilds (10-20) will be able to run towns, castles, get the best gear, win guild wars against large guilds etc etc?

I've gotten the impression so far that is more likely to be for 200+ member communities and the 10-20 player guilds will be pay paying taxes to those guilds to enable them to participate in that gameplay. Maybe I misunderstand how that part works as I can't see a way to access it in the alpha. So if I put together a 10-20 person guild I could do all of the game content?

Regarding soloing, the always on pvp means I can just be harassed by any mismatch (higher level, bigger groups) out of doing content as a core part of the gameplay.

Guilds are not designed to run a node but be one of the guilds that helps run a node. Small guild could claim a castle. You have to understand guild progression will do things like make your crafted weapons and armor be better. Your pots will heal for more. Your DPS could be buffed. A small guild of 50 players that follow the progression of buffing their guild. Could be a mighty force. With small guilds making alliances (thats part of this game) you could have an advantage of power. It what Steven is shooting to balance with guild progression.

Garrtok wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Some of the things your saying is off. Like small guilds will be able to stand toe to toe with large guilds. You have two options when leveling your guild. Every time your guild levels, you can spend points to make your guild larger. Max level into max size will give you a guild of 300. Or you keep your guild smaller and spend the points on buffing your guild. Making the small guild more powerful. Look up guild progression. Small guilds can impact the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_progression

Soloing is important, pick a class that solos well like Fighter, Ranger or the Summoner.

Nope sorry, that small guilds are even close to big guilds will never happen, that is just marketing talk.

Guild progression is coming it's not in testing yet

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