Instanced PVP (Arena and/or Battlegrounds)

Greetings!

Like many others, I have been following AOC for years and am beyond excited for everything it has to over. However, I wanted to bring up a concerning issue I have.

For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG. I read that AOC is primarily going to be open world content so there are going to be incentives for engaging with other players during events and what not. However, does this mean there won't be any small scale PVP that you can simply queue into or visit an area that is dedicated to small scale PVP? My favorite content happens to be 1v1 & 2v2 combat and it would be a bummer to have to only rely on stumbling across another person in the open world. I am perfectly fine with queuing into an arena/battleground or visiting a colosseum type area in which this type of thing can occur.

I would love to see a dev forum/discussion on this to see what direction PVP will be going in for AOC!

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Nightmarelol

judasalive wrote: »

In my opinion arena fights should be seen as team fights, not as a "solo competitive battle"... something to choose the right team setup, with the right synergy of different skills/spells from different classes. This mechanic was disregarded in some mmorpgs out there in the past. Look for e.g. at arenas in T&L where the group mechanic is totally immaterial. It is just a dmg race there and this should not be the way how arenas are implemented.

"...Again I will ask what do you tell the person who spends 45 days of time leveling class x only to find out they are outclassed in y gametype..."

yes its very hard to find the right balance for classes between pve and pvp, but if the dev team keep focus on the teamplay, every class will find its role in a team setup pvp... openworld or arena...

Read this.
Then read it again.
Then read it again, and try and understand it, cause this is basically what Arena is all about.

Your class that you leveled for 45 days, might actually, and hear me out here, quite good with other CERTAIN classes in Team play. Which means your class is still viable for Arena play.

For example, I’ll use WoW, say it’s Affliction Warlock and the only team comp that works for it is Shadow Play 3v3 Comp. It doesn’t mean your class is bad, just means for it to the best for your spec, you need to play with a Shadow Priest and Healer (X).
Your making it sound like certain classes or specs won’t be able to work, but as we’ve seen previously in other MMOs a certain comp can work and that class can still be viable.

Even better now, the introduction of 5v5 Arena is back too which means more classes will viable then just trying to find a 3v3 comp. This opens up so many doors to not being locked out to just one bracket as there is multiple brackets.

Pyrolol

I actually did just don’t think you read it
Class balancing is around the 8 party system
So be it, since you said you’re also a competitive player you should know that there is a degree of skill that can make your class work

This isn’t WoW, you have different abilities, stamina, dodge roll and skill shots in AoC. Put that in an Arena system which is a small controlled fast paced game mode and you can very well make your class work if you find the right team compositions

Again this is what the forums are about, you bring up concerns here or give ideas, solutions.
My issue ive brought up is not only OW can be daunting to find a fight even if there is heaps happening, it’s always won in big numbers, so just like for eg NW the big guilds running around with big teams will dominate. As for the Arena people can opt in for something more smaller scale using team work to win and add that with a competitive ladder system which i believe is vital for games to have for end game content and also motivate players to excel at their class

Endowed

Pyrolol wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

There are instanced dungeons confirmed?
Have you even bothered reading the Ashes wiki?

No they are not.
Dungeons/raids are subject to outside interference, as is everything. Arenas would be a move to safe n sterile.
Thus my post.

Pyrolol

Endowed wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

There are instanced dungeons confirmed?
Have you even bothered reading the Ashes wiki?

No they are not.
Dungeons/raids are subject to outside interference, as is everything. Arenas would be a move to safe n sterile.
Thus my post.

Instancing
Jump to navigation
Approximately 20% of content in Ashes of Creation will be instanced.

What we're creating is a PvX game; and what that means is our target audience is the PvX player; and that is our golden cohort. And so to a degree if a player is solely interested in the most elaborate raid boss mechanics within a controlled and curated setting that is instanced gameplay, Ashes might not be the game for them and that's okay. However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that. – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

Have a read champ

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

There are instanced dungeons confirmed?
Have you even bothered reading the Ashes wiki?

No they are not.
Dungeons/raids are subject to outside interference, as is everything. Arenas would be a move to safe n sterile.
Thus my post.

Instancing
Jump to navigation
Approximately 20% of content in Ashes of Creation will be instanced.

What we're creating is a PvX game; and what that means is our target audience is the PvX player; and that is our golden cohort. And so to a degree if a player is solely interested in the most elaborate raid boss mechanics within a controlled and curated setting that is instanced gameplay, Ashes might not be the game for them and that's okay. However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that. – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

Have a read champ

What we don't know about this is if they are still planning on instanced content being story based, as opposed to repeatable.

If the instances in ashes are not repeatable (as was one of the original plans), then I am all for an Arena that matches - one and done.

If the instanced content is repeatable, then so too should arenas be.

Pyrolol

That makes no sense why it would be a one off scenario, Arena has already confirmed seasonal rewards

Castle and node sieges may contain instanced locations where specific groups can participate in certain objective-based waypoints.[8][9][2][12]
Dungeons and raids will maintain an open world feel while also capitalizing on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[16] Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal.[2][7] Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[14]

There will be some open dungeons that have bosses at the end of the dungeons. There will be some open dungeons that just have a multitude of dungeon bosses, not necessarily world raids or something; and there will be lots of different rooms and they'll be progressive in the sense that in the earlier parts of the dungeon they'll be lower level and then at the later parts of the dungeons deeper down they'll be higher level and more difficult; and that creates again I think an ecosystem of where players across a multitude of levels have an opportunity to coexist within certain areas of the world; and that's good from a social dynamic. It's good from a recruitment dynamic. It's good from just a liveliness and relevance of particular areas. So that you don't end up with these locations that once you pass a certain level like it's empty.[17] – Steven Sharif

There's also instanced housing

Instanced apartments
Apartments provide instanced player housing functionality on a rental basis.[60][61]

Village (stage 3) apartment buildings offer 50 rental apartments. Additional apartments can be added at Town (stage 4) if the mayor chooses to construct them and if there is an available plot for the expansion. This includes different types of apartments, such as penthouses.[62][63][60][64][61]
The number and sizes of available apartments increases as a normal part of node advancement.[60][65]
It is estimated that the number of apartments available in a Metropolis (stage 6) node will be in the hundreds, if that node specs into all apartment expansion upgrades. This number is subject to change based on testing.[60]
Prices for apartments will fluctuate depending on the number of units already sold in the node.[61]
Different price points offer different apartment sizes and types, such as penthouses.[63][61]
It was previously stated that apartments would be available at Town (stage 4) or above.[61]

If you are getting 80% of what you want, why can't we have our 20%?

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

If you are getting 80% of what you want, why can't we have our 20%?

What?

Anyone that things people talking about PvE instances is considering apartments to be a part of what they are talking about clearly has no business even being in the conversation.

You talking about instanced apartments in this conversation as a "see, you have the thing" kind of vibe is about the same as me telling you that you have your arena PvP because you have instanced apartments.

Neither makes any sense.

You copy pasting an entire paragraph that basically just describes what an open world dungeon is also has no real place in this discussion - it is again like me saying you have your arena, it's the open world PvP.

Again, neither make sense.

The portion about instanced aspects to sieges also has no place here. Those instances will essentially play out like an objective based arena (Alterac Valley, for example). They are PvP instances with objectives, not PvE instances.

You pointing to them saying "PvE instances" is like me pointing to the story based PvE instances and telling tou that it is your arena.

Once again, neither make sense - yet all three of the above are me providing you with a parallel to what you are saying (basically just hiughlighting to you that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about - hopefully).

Literally the only part of your post above that pertains at all to this topic at hand is this part

Pyrolol wrote: »

Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal.[2][7] Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[14]

Which happens to be the part I was talking about when I said that instanced PvE may prove to not be repetable at all.

If this is the case, then I would want to see non-repeatable PvP arenas as well.

I don't really care what issues that cases PvE arenas, to be honest. If the game is saying "both PvP and PvE", then any instancing of one should be mirrored in the other.

So again, if the only instanced PvE in Ashes (not siege objectives, not apartments, not open world dungeons) is story based and not able to be repeated, then it should stand to both reason and logic that any instanced PvP should also be story based and not be able to be repeated.

If you want repeated instanced PvP, you should also be asking for repeated instanced PvE.

Pyrolol

I threw that one in there because it’s funny
You say I have no idea what im talking about
Yet you are saying PvE being non repeatable, I haven’t read that any where nor heard Steven even mention a once off instanced dungeon. The only way that’s doable or even a thing and Im just gona take a guess here, is a raid that will be locked once a week (similar to WoW) then to me that’s classified as repeatable or a storyline dungeon that’s part of the main quest line. Both aren’t even mentioned in the entire wiki in regards to instancing

There is already so much confirmed for the Arena, there is a PvP ladder, seasonal rewards, titles, cosmetics, team brackets sizes…
There’s also instanced raids, dungeons and PvE scenarios

What you’re arguing about is literally 1% chance of instanced PvE being a non repeatable thing, how does that at all equate to Stevens 80% / 20% if it’s one off?
So, I don’t get where you are even arguing or got that idea from.

Even if that’s the case, so what, there will be different instanced challenges of the game for PvE and PvP, so yet to see what the problem is?

Im sure once more WoW players flock over, watch how much they will push for Mythic+ dungeon style challenges

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

I threw that one in there because it’s funny
You say I have no idea what im talking about
Yet you are saying PvE being non repeatable, I haven’t read that any where nor heard Steven even mention a once off instanced dungeon.

Story based content is content you can do when you are at the appropriate part of the story.

If you can do that same content when you are not at that part of the story, it is unlocked content, not story based content.

The actual term "story based" means one and done. It is specific wording that has a specific meaning.

Having to specifically also state that it is limited accessibility after already stating that it is story based is redundant.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

I threw that one in there because it’s funny
You say I have no idea what im talking about
Yet you are saying PvE being non repeatable, I haven’t read that any where nor heard Steven even mention a once off instanced dungeon.

Story based content is content you can do when you are at the appropriate part of the story.

If you can do that same content when you are not at that part of the story, it is unlocked content, not story based content.

The actual term "story based" means one and done. It is specific wording that has a specific meaning.

Having to specifically also state that it is limited accessibility after already stating that it is story based is redundant.

Yes, I know the definition of a one off scenario in game content that would happen during progression. If you read the wiki there is not much stated about that and the way Steven has described instancing content is not at all hinting that it will be one off. Hence the 80/20 quote
That doesn’t make sense for end game content considering how much has been confirmed it would be a very odd move

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

If you read the wiki there is not much stated about that and the way Steven has described instancing content is not at all hinting that it will be one off. Hence the 80/20 quote

Again, he has said that instanced content will be largely story based.

Also again, story based content is one off. That is literally what story based content means in an MMORPG setting.

You have just content, that is always available, you have unlockable content where you perform a task (usually a quest), and that unlocks content for you to run as many times as you like, and you have story based content that is content that is only available to you when on that part of the story.

As I said above, Steven doesn't need to specify that story based content is one off, because it is implicit in the name.

On the other hand, if Steven is using the term story based content but actually means either unlockable content or just general content, then that just further highlights his lack of knowledge in regards to basically all matters related to PvE. I'm not completely disregarding this as being a possibility, but if it is true, it shows how near zero Stevens knowledge is on this matter.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

If you read the wiki there is not much stated about that and the way Steven has described instancing content is not at all hinting that it will be one off. Hence the 80/20 quote

Again, he has said that instanced content will be largely story based.

Also again, story based content is one off. That is literally what story based content means in an MMORPG setting.

You have just content, that is always available, you have unlockable content where you perform a task (usually a quest), and that unlocks content for you to run as many times as you like, and you have story based content that is content that is only available to you when on that part of the story.

As I said above, Steven doesn't need to specify that story based content is one off, because it is implicit in the name.

On the other hand, if Steven is using the term story based content but actually means either unlockable content or just general content, then that just further highlights his lack of knowledge in regards to basically all matters related to PvE. I'm not completely disregarding this as being a possibility, but if it is true, it shows how near zero Stevens knowledge is on this matter.

Mate, don't need you to spell out what story based content is
Legit, I have never heard him say that, so unless you're just making it up or miss understood him, there might be some events that will be a one off with different type of rewards, but no where does it say in the instancing section of the Ashes wiki that all or majorioty of the instanced modes will be a one off thing.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

Again, im going off the wiki so unless the Ashes wiki is completly wrong than that's Arena, Instanced dungeons and raids being a one off thing does not sounds like good end game content at all? I don't get what your point is except for hyper focusing on one thing that apparently YOU heard?

Again, that doesn't sound at all feasable, considering how much has been confirmed with Arena, and also discussed in dev videos about the Arena system.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

If you read the Arena section that sounds like to me seasonal basd rewards, so 6 month seasons with top % of players receiving unique rewards that they can show off at the end of season, not at all a once off thing but more seasonal.

If you don't understand that you can DM me and I'l happily explain it to ya

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

If you read the wiki there is not much stated about that and the way Steven has described instancing content is not at all hinting that it will be one off. Hence the 80/20 quote

Again, he has said that instanced content will be largely story based.

Also again, story based content is one off. That is literally what story based content means in an MMORPG setting.

You have just content, that is always available, you have unlockable content where you perform a task (usually a quest), and that unlocks content for you to run as many times as you like, and you have story based content that is content that is only available to you when on that part of the story.

As I said above, Steven doesn't need to specify that story based content is one off, because it is implicit in the name.

On the other hand, if Steven is using the term story based content but actually means either unlockable content or just general content, then that just further highlights his lack of knowledge in regards to basically all matters related to PvE. I'm not completely disregarding this as being a possibility, but if it is true, it shows how near zero Stevens knowledge is on this matter.

Mate, don't need you to spell out what story based content is
Legit, I have never heard him say that, so unless you're just making it up or miss understood him, there might be some events that will be a one off with different type of rewards, but no where does it say in the instancing section of the Ashes wiki that all or majorioty of the instanced modes will be a one off thing.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

Again, im going off the wiki so unless the Ashes wiki is completly wrong than that's Arena, Instanced dungeons and raids being a one off thing does not sounds like good end game content at all? I don't get what your point is except for hyper focusing on one thing that apparently YOU heard?

Again, that doesn't sound at all feasable, considering how much has been confirmed with Arena, and also discussed in dev videos about the Arena system.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

If you read the Arena section that sounds like to me seasonal basd rewards, so 6 month seasons with top % of players receiving unique rewards that they can show off at the end of season, not at all a once off thing but more seasonal.

If you don't understand that you can DM me and I'l happily explain it to ya

You're clearly lost in this discussion. I'll try and fix it for you.

I didn't say the arena was being built as one off content, I said that if instanced PvE content is, then so too should instanced PvP content.

If this means a change to the form thst instanced PvP content takes, so be it. The logical best op5ion here is to not have one off content at all - which is my point.

As to PvE being one off - that is what story based content is by definition. If Steven is saying instanced PvP in Ashes will be story based, he is saying that it will be one off, because those two terms mean the same thing. He doesn't need to use them both, and story based content sounds better.

It is possible that Steven is using the term "story based" wrong, and he actually means content that is unlocked during the Amory and remains unlocked. However, if this is true, it just highlights Steven's complete lack of understanding of PvE MMO gameplay.

If he doesn't even understand the terms, how can he understand the whole?

So, if we are going to assume Steven knows what he is doing and what he is saying, Ashes will have one off instanced content - because that is what he said when talking about story based content.

If Ashes has one off instanced PvE content, it is only fair, in my opinion, that it also only has one off instanced PvP content.

I'll even tl;dr it a bit more for you.

One of three things is to be true;
1, Steven is an idiot.
2, Ashes will vastly favor instanced PvP over instanced PvE.
3, Ashes will have one off arenas.

Option 2, in my opinion, goes against the notion of PvP and PvE being equal in Ashes, and so should be immediately ruled out, leaving options 1 and 3.

Pyrolol

Yeah I did go back to the Arena based content since that’s what this thread is supposed to be about, you’re just derailing it over something that you think/or supposedly only one thats heard. Everything in that wiki that’s under instancing will make no sense (including the PvE content) if it’s a damn one off thing

Not lost at all, the way you have hyper focused on one thing makes this sound like trash end game content.

My understanding of it all from the instancing part of the wiki is 80% of it will be open world content, 20% is dungeons/raids that have no affect from the outside world and Arena. I think this will be for the PvErs who want to do PvE without the risk of being attacked by other players

Lets humour you for a second and say that he did say that, could you have miss understood that it means you will need to complete the main storyline to unlock these instanced content for later on at max level? Because that makes more sense to me than it being a one off thing, imagine all the effort of programming, visuals, content being added just to be played off once?
Guess we will find out when ever this game releases

Your TLDR is silly and doesn’t give many good options

1. You miss understood him and he actually means to unlock it for future end game content
2. Yes because saying 80% open world and 20% means the 20% is favoured? Lol what no its called Competitive gameplay, believe it or not people enjoy the competitive scene and at the moment whats confirmed in the wiki is you gain zero benefits for your character other than aesthetic cosmetics (yet to see how thats favoured since it’s literally just bragging rights)
3. Whats confirmed in the wiki is no where near read as once off but more 6 month season based Arena

Hope this helps

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yeah I did go back to the Arena based content since that’s what this thread is supposed to be about, you’re just derailing it over something that you think/or supposedly only one thats heard.

I posted my opinion, you derailed by making the thread about my opinion.

And yeah, there are no good options in that tl;dr, but those three options are the only options open to us. I didn't put us in this situation, I am just shining a light on the fact that this is the situation we are in.

Also, you still aren't understanding things - it is clear by your comments that you don't. You comment about the 80/20 split means you still don't get it. You can't make that comment and understand the point at hand at the same time.

Pyrolol

How so? Literally explained the possibilities of what it could have meant
Showed you the references of where there is so much information about it all
No, so let’s just keep it at that
Merry Christmas

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

How so? Literally explained the possibilities of what it could have meant
Showed you the references of where there is so much information about it all
No, so let’s just keep it at that
Merry Christmas

I have no idea which part of my post you are referring to with this.

You showed me you have a lack of understanding of the topic.

You are just assuming your understanding of things is correct, pointing at words that don't support what you are saying, and yelling "SEE, THERE!". Then you are stating that you have shown references and such.

Yes, I am aware that the current plan for arenas is seasons. I never said it wasn't. I said that in my opinion, if PvE content is story based (read, one off), then arenas should also be story based (read, one off). That means a change from what we have so far been told - meaning the information we have on arenas means nothing to my opinion here because my opinion is that - should this circumstance come to pass - they should be changed.

The reason your comment on the 80/20 split clearly means you don't understand the discussion you are in is because the comment you were referring to was about instanced PvP vs instanced PvE, and your reply was in relation to open world vs instanced.

Very clear lack of understanding of the topic at hand.

neobpm

Pyrolol wrote: »

Also the appeal of Arena

- Fast paced game mode using team work to counter your enemies using skill and team coordination
- Smaller scale controlled PvP with no outside influence
- More notice of individual skill rather than sitting in big groups playing loot simulator
- Ranked competitive system
- Unique rewards to flex skill and efforts achieved
- Leaderboard (no need to say more)
- E-Sports opportunity (not needed until much later)
- Pushing your class to the limits in a controlled environment
- End game competitive mode instead of running around looking for a random to fight out in the open world
- No Corruption risk
- Unique Titles & Cosmetics
- Playing as a team with your mates
- Motivation to master your class and work better as a team
- Inspiration when watching others compete and seeing how they play there class in an Arena
- Clutch plays (if you have had heart throbbing 1v3 games or where it was down to you to win it for your team to get the rating you will understand)

Just off the top of my head

This is one of the best posts I ever read in this forum, my total support for it. Thanks man, this is exactly I want in AoC. Hope devs read and add it.

Pyrolol

They have it confirmed on their wiki

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

Including some footage they did for Pax

My only concern as I said in my Arena thread I created earlier this year is it shouldn’t be objective based, majority of this game is objectives

Wouldn’t mind some raw 3v3 like WoW’s Arena where it’s 2 teams fight to the death and 1 walks out victorious

Miss those clutch style games

wems

open world pvp is always better than instanced pvp... like 10000000% better. I've seen instanced PvP ruin so many games with a lot of potential for pvp.

you have to find systems that promote open world pvp, and I think this game is going to do a great job at it. pirating in archeage was some of the best pvp i've evern done

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