Instanced PVP (Arena and/or Battlegrounds)

Greetings!

Like many others, I have been following AOC for years and am beyond excited for everything it has to over. However, I wanted to bring up a concerning issue I have.

For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG. I read that AOC is primarily going to be open world content so there are going to be incentives for engaging with other players during events and what not. However, does this mean there won't be any small scale PVP that you can simply queue into or visit an area that is dedicated to small scale PVP? My favorite content happens to be 1v1 & 2v2 combat and it would be a bummer to have to only rely on stumbling across another person in the open world. I am perfectly fine with queuing into an arena/battleground or visiting a colosseum type area in which this type of thing can occur.

I would love to see a dev forum/discussion on this to see what direction PVP will be going in for AOC!

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Pyrolol

Do you even have an alpha key for Ashes?
Have you played this game at all?

Wtf entering instances? You had to travel to it? Then it becomes an instance, the entire trip from wherever you were wasn’t it was open world?

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

That’s not what happened in wotlk, people still had to go down to the dungeon areas, raids, daily quest area. Everyone had to go do the argent crusade to get the rep otherwise you would be cooked for PvE and or PvP, gold wasn’t easily accessible back then so 90% of the population had to do dailies and that was all running into the other faction constantly. There was so much interaction for OW PvP it’s not even funny and this is not even including the OW PvP in Wintergrasp, sitting in town definitely got you no where and also just remembered that professions were also important back then (not like current retail) so a lot of players were constantly running into each or fighting each other for mine, herb, fishing spots etc this was server based and no cross realm either so a lot of people would brawl each other due to seeing each other again after being ganked while leveling and including guilds going off at each other. Again proving that hardcore PvE and competitive ranked 3v3 Arena and open world PvP can all coexist easily and have a healthy participation of all systems in the game AS PROVEN IN WOTLK

Did you even play that lol and have you even played this Alpha at all? Or are you just guessing, if you have played this Alpha are you even max level yet? Have you gone to the new desert area yet? Still haven’t answered whether you’re even participating in this Alpha. Il also happily keep contributing to the forums as I’ve done since making The Arena Thread, as someone who has max levelled in both phase 1 & 2. I can give a lot of feedback on the current state and put forward some suggestions. If they get taken or not so be it

If your only experience is watching streamers i can guarantee it’s completely different in the game

What you say about wrath is at best stretching the truth.

What rep did you need for pve/pvp? From my remembrance you needed SoH for shoulder and one other for your helm. Both of these took a week at max to get. Also lfg dungeon finder came in 3.3 during the ICC dungeons. Wows success in wrath had little to do with it's terrible content and more to do with the cultural phenomenon that it was. For pve naxx, togc and ICC were terrible raids. For pvp season 5, 6, and 7 were faceroll dk seasons and season 8 was SM and DBW. There's a reason wrath players were referred to as wraith babies.

Your obfuscation of information should lead people to take your opinions with a grain of salt.

Laetitian

It's not obfuscation, years of WoW without ever giving into anything else a serious chance just warp your definition of "hardcore" and "player interaction."

Pyrolol

That was Dungeon finder that’s not even close to what Looking for group is that he is referring to? Raid finder was 4.3 cataclysm and LFG for PvP was introduced in 2014 during WoD so nice try in trying to twist that truth champ

I completely agree no MMO should be spent in major cities just looking for group, that’s completely destroyed the MMO feeling and social interaction, you couldn’t pug ICC or you wouldn’t go anywhere, it took some mechanics to get passed so saying it “terrible content” is a bit rough considering the numbers were there, dungeons were fun and for the Arena you clearly forgot spell cleave, lsd, tsg, wld… they took away double healer later on and made it only one healer per team comp which was lovely

I disagree that the ICC raids were terrible,
I started in Vanilla, I remember other than TBC that WOTLK was an amazing expansion. Im yet to understand why AoC can’t take the best aspects of other mmo’s and put it together in there game? I also can’t believe you said Naxx was a terrible raid 🤦🏻‍♂️

Have you played this Alpha? Have you gotten to max level and actually experienced anything yet? Most of the dungeons is literally sitting in a corner and afk damaging. Have you any experience in ow PvP other than getting corrupted or versing mass hordes of groups?
You’re very quick to undermine my points but give back zero solutions or ideas?

Kyraax

Instances and queues make PVP stale as a week bagel. Let them stay in WoW where they belong.

Kyraax

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Do you even have an alpha key for Ashes?
Have you played this game at all?

You can see what pre-order pack I originally purchased. From there, you can see what alpha and beta access I have.

Wtf entering instances? You had to travel to it? Then it becomes an instance, the entire trip from wherever you were wasn’t it was open world?

Yes, you run to the instance, then you enter and you are no longer in an environment where PvP is possible.

I'm not sure what it is you don't get about this. You are the one that is saying WoW was great at this time. I am simply pointing out the major difference between WoW then and Ashes - the fact that the bulk of the game was not subject to PvP, even on PvP servers.

I want to add to the above; I have been arguing on these forums for years (almost 7 years in total) that Ashes needs instanced PvE content that is located away from cities and such. Instances that you need to run to the bottom of an open world dungeon in order to enter, for example.

Many people - you included - have argued against me when I make these suggestions. Fact is though, they are exactly what this game needs.

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

That was Dungeon finder that’s not even close to what Looking for group is that he is referring to? Raid finder was 4.3 cataclysm and LFG for PvP was introduced in 2014 during WoD so nice try in trying to twist that truth champ

I completely agree no MMO should be spent in major cities just looking for group, that’s completely destroyed the MMO feeling and social interaction, you couldn’t pug ICC or you wouldn’t go anywhere, it took some mechanics to get passed so saying it “terrible content” is a bit rough considering the numbers were there, dungeons were fun and for the Arena you clearly forgot spell cleave, lsd, tsg, wld… they took away double healer later on and made it only one healer per team comp which was lovely

I disagree that the ICC raids were terrible,
I started in Vanilla, I remember other than TBC that WOTLK was an amazing expansion. Im yet to understand why AoC can’t take the best aspects of other mmo’s and put it together in there game? I also can’t believe you said Naxx was a terrible raid 🤦🏻‍♂️

Have you played this Alpha? Have you gotten to max level and actually experienced anything yet? Most of the dungeons is literally sitting in a corner and afk damaging. Have you any experience in ow PvP other than getting corrupted or versing mass hordes of groups?
You’re very quick to undermine my points but give back zero solutions or ideas?

Please define for the discussion what lfg means as the communication has dipped to the point where it is difficult to understand what you are talking about.

Naxx 25 was a a terrible raids. Outside of immortal/undying it was a total chore to get people to show up once they had GT and kt weapons. The sentiment from the guilds i played in was that it was a boring easy rehash. ICC was panned for the last 8 months (it was around for something like 14) when it was current content. As for arena please look up the percentage of dks that hit glad in s5, s6, and s7. If I remember correctly it was over 50% of glads were dk in s5.

I have leveled 4 toons to max levels across the two phases. You are complaining about fight size in an area of the world intended for 1-2k players max. The servers currently have over 6k. The crafting and resource acquisition system is not done. The nodes themselves are samey outside of of 1-2 building differenced. There are no relics, lawless areas are tiny or not worth going to, no unique resources, no guild objectives, etc. All of these things effect the amount of people in areas and what they are doing.

Ashes pvp structure is based off eve. You are complaining that there isnt pvp in high sec. The only solution to your "points" is to wait for the game to be developed. Come back in a year and see where it's at.

AirborneBerserker

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

LFG came in a later expansion
No, WOTLK did not have LFG, and you couldn’t turn off PvP either.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The reason my point remains in tact even if I was wrong about LFG being in place or not is because even on PvP servers WoW allowed you to turn off PvP and still play the bulk of the game.

No on PvP servers you are not able to unflag. You are always able to be attacked. PvE servers your able to unflag but it takes a bit and if you are attacked or attack someone else it stops the process.

If you re-read my two posts on this matter, you will (hopefully) see that I am talking about entering instances.

Yeah I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you can turn off PvP on PvP servers. but you you were saying you could play the majority of the game without PvPing.

AirborneBerserker

Kyraax wrote: »

Instances and queues make PVP stale as a week bagel. Let them stay in WoW where they belong.

OWPvP is unbalanced and one sided, it can stay in WoW.

PvP wasn't a focus for WoW so pretending that WoW is peak PvP anything is short sighted.

Saying I don't like PvP instances because WoW is like saying I don't like story telling because WoW. It wasn't trying to be the best it was trying to have something.

Pyrolol

Did not at all argue against instances, literally saying the same thing, as someone who has pushed for the Arena discussion since i saw its confirmation on the wiki, i also wouldn’t mind some PvE that have no outside environmental influence as I don’t see why AoC can’t have both?

The bulk of that game was subject to PvP so stop talking about WOTLK and my only point about bringing that up was that it can have multiple systems including OW and Instances and still be amazing. My questions that remain unanswered is have you played this Alpha? Are you max level as well and what’s your experience been so far?
I have voyager pack, means nothing if you haven’t played the alpha to max level.

Il give some feedback, the instances/dungeons are afk farming with no real mechanics and ow PvP is just big groups and/or otherwise dead. An instance maybe just what this Alpha needs to spice it up? PvP and PvE

Yes it’s an alpha but we can still discuss it? Isn’t that the point of these forums to throw in some feedback and maybe some suggestions that they might consider? Just because you yourself didn’t enjoy something doesn’t mean others didn’t, Wrathful season was by far the mvp of that entire expac, i do remember DKs coming back alive after you killed them in Arena. So il just put my two cents of s8 was the gr8

Noaani

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

LFG came in a later expansion
No, WOTLK did not have LFG, and you couldn’t turn off PvP either.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The reason my point remains in tact even if I was wrong about LFG being in place or not is because even on PvP servers WoW allowed you to turn off PvP and still play the bulk of the game.

No on PvP servers you are not able to unflag. You are always able to be attacked. PvE servers your able to unflag but it takes a bit and if you are attacked or attack someone else it stops the process.

If you re-read my two posts on this matter, you will (hopefully) see that I am talking about entering instances.

Yeah I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you can turn off PvP on PvP servers. but you you were saying you could play the majority of the game without PvPing.

Indeed.

I may not have worded it as well as I could have, but that is exactly what I was saying.

To me, that is the major difference between WoW PvP servers and Ashes.

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

The bulk of that game was subject to PvP

Hard no.

The bulk of WoW - in terms of play time, gear progression and developer effort - has ALWAYS been its instances.

This has been the core design philosophy since it's inception.

In early WoW, players on PvP servers could spend the bulk of their time PvP'ing, but the bulk of the game was never subject to PvP.

Pyrolol

You’re never going to answer if you have played this alpha yet are you?

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

You’re never going to answer if you have played this alpha yet are you?

It's none of your business - it has no impact on this discussion.

I have been involved in every stage of testing Ashes has undergone so far, other than in house only tests, but I fail to see how that matters.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

You’re never going to answer if you have played this alpha yet are you?

It's none of your business - it has no impact on this discussion.

I have been involved in every stage of testing Ashes has undergone so far, other than in house only tests, but I fail to see how that matters.

Bit defensive for a simple feedback Alpha question, settle down

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

You’re never going to answer if you have played this alpha yet are you?

It's none of your business - it has no impact on this discussion.

I have been involved in every stage of testing Ashes has undergone so far, other than in house only tests, but I fail to see how that matters.

Bit defensive for a simple feedback Alpha question, settle down

A pointless question that you are being needlessly persistent on.

Now that you have your answer, what difference does it make?

Pyrolol

Yes 13 million player subscriptions in WOTLK were because of culture and not the content 🤦🏻‍♂️
Everyone I have ever spoken to has said it was the best expansion hands down, PvE and PvP
End game Raids and Arena
Im yet to understand why AoC can’t take the best of MMO’s and implement them

Apex Legends brought out resurrection of downed team mates in br
Fotnite then took this and put it in there game
Then so did CoD and both even adding the redeploy balloon originally starting from Apex Legends

Yet to understand why other games can do it but you refuse to even budge about putting other successful systems in this game or even putting them up for consideration

This map is going to be humongous shown evident in Pirates stream, OW is going to be fairly stale after a while if that’s all we can do other than objective based PvP even with all the risk but barely any rewards, corruption and the unbalanced win by numbers that it’s always been
Am I saying get rid of it? Not at all im encouraging it as ive barely got to even encounter it and would not mind experiencing it more often, just don’t see why we can’t have both Ow and Instanced smaller scale PvP?

Could look into putting in some sort of instanced PvP mode or even an event, just to encourage more PvP in this supposedly PvX game, this is an Alpha it is probably the best time to test this

Ludullu

Pyrolol wrote: »

This map is going to be humongous shown evident in Pirates stream, OW is going to be fairly stale after a while

Are the main farming spots empty? Cause from what I've heard they're packed nearly constantly.

The same will be true for the final game, where metros will have the best top lvl content, which will funnel people together, just as HH and Carphin (and I think Befallen) do now.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Could look into putting in some sort of instanced PvP mode or even an event, just to encourage more PvP in this supposedly PvX game, this is an Alpha it is probably the best time to test this

We will have instanced pvp. There's literally no reason to test it rn, when we all know which archetypes are OP, that there's also 0 real balancing of gear or those archetypes and there's also economy to test.

We'll get to test instanced pvp at some point in P3, but only after a ton of other systems that are more important than "sit in my little room with my little enemy, hitting each other".

AirborneBerserker

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yes 13 million player subscriptions in WOTLK were because of culture and not the content 🤦🏻‍♂️
Everyone I have ever spoken to has said it was the best expansion hands down, PvE and PvP
End game Raids and Arena
I'm yet to understand why AoC can’t take the best of MMO’s and implement them

Because Steven's vision bro. Who cares if it like dosen't work.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Apex Legends brought out resurrection of downed team mates
Fotnite then took this and put it in there game
Then so did CoD and both even adding the redeploy balloon originally starting from Apex Legends

Um no Apex legends was not the game that brought out Resing during combat. That existed in WoW, and other games long before WoW ever did it.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yet to understand why other games can do it but you refuse to even budge about putting other successful systems in this game or even putting them up for consideration

This map is going to be humongous shown evident in Pirates stream, OW is going to be fairly stale after a while if that’s all we can do other than objective based PvP even with all the risk but barely any rewards, corruption and the unbalanced win by numbers that it’s always been

I had this conversation with multiple people on here they are convinced the game will be totally fine. Not realizing, or deluding themselves, that the market for a game this niche basically doesn't exist.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Am I saying get rid of it? Not at all I'm encouraging it as I've barely got to even encounter it and would not mind experiencing it more often, just don’t see why we can’t have both Ow and Instanced smaller scale PvP?

Could look into putting in some sort of instanced PvP mode or even an event, just to encourage more PvP in this supposedly PvX game, this is an Alpha it is probably the best time to test this

"Instanced" PvP is going to be included in the form of Arenas, but the system will never work because the classes aren't balanced against each other, they are balanced from the group level. Which makes PvP terrible unless you have exactly full groups which in this game is 8 people meaning you will need arenas of 8, 16, and 24. Which aren't arenas those are battlegrounds with no objectives. Not to mention 1v1 arenas is a laughable idea since the classes are balanced around a paper-rock-scissors system, meaning 1v1 arenas would have more to do with luck then anything else, and I don't know much about arena players, but I do know they hate it when luck is the deciding factor when it comes to losing a match. Or you make it so you only ever face players of the same class, which would get very boring very quickly and leave Tanks and Clerics in a very bad place.

References
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing

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