Power Scaling: A Controversial Take

Quick acknowledgement: I know this game is still in Alpha with most of the major systems still incomplete. This isn't a short-sighted trash-post, but rather an opinion on a dimension of the game that I believe is under-discussed not only in Ashes Of Creation but in MMORPG's in general: Overall character powerscaling. It's going to be controversial to a lot of people - I'm looking to embrace that and have ourselves a healthy debate.

Background
Steven's vision is to create a vibrant open-world PvX game with significant social dimensions of politics, alliances, betrayals overhanging the base RPG elements of exploration, level & gear progression, crafting, combat, etc. It's my contention that the RPG aspects of the game will cannibalize the social aspects if they lead to too large of an overall character power gap across levels/gear/consumables.

Assumptions
If you have good counter-examples to my assumptions, I want to hear them:

PvP is a dominant feature in the PvX landscape; if you (as a group) can't fight, you can't reliably enable your PvE/crafting-oriented members by securing resources/farming locations. I think this is clear to anyone playing Alpha 2 Phase 2.
Because of the Node system, the game isn't cleanly and statically broken up into "level range" zones like in games like WoW where it's only really profitable to be in your designated zone. Eventually, the node system will differentiate areas based on the node level, but this is fluid and changing. Caravan runs and general exploration/travel will mean crossing a variety of zones. This means that players of wildly different levels will be in contact with each other semi-regularly
Steven's vision is to create meaningful and engaging PvP interactions, which indicates a desire to maximize the number of PvP interactions where skill, coordination, and cooperationmatter. Another way of saying this is that PvP interactions should as rarely as possible have a pre-determined winner. It's not avoidable completely, but it should be minimized.
In coordinated PvP play, a moderate advantage in raw stats can shift the chance of victory by large percentages. The more dialed-in and skilled the players, the more a small advantage can have an outsized impact. Think about giving one team in Counter Strike or Sea of Thieves 50% more damage on their guns - it would be unplayable.
The general format of MMORPG's has started from and expanded on the formula for single player RPG's (obviously). This means the dopamine of huge power gains on level up is a core feature and is emphasized naturally without much thought for how it impacts the other systems in a game.
The power differential between a fully geared level 15 player and a level 25 player in Ashes is already on the order of ~5:1. I'm not sure 5 geared level 15's could beat a single geared level 25 (please chime in - others will have a better feel for the exact power spread)
Ashes is about creating micro-metas instead of one dominant Meta.

The Argument
I strongly believe that if Ashes follows the standard model of MMORPG character development, the game will be excessively frustrating for casual players. There will be a dominant Meta - to powerlevel as fast as possible because:

The level scaling on your raw stats is incredibly powerful
Even the cheapest higher-level gear is great from the perspective of a lower level cap
Better spells!
More spells/cd's!

With the massive strength advantage, the players that powerlevel early will be able to secure resources/farming locations and snowball that into better gear, further cementing their advantage. It's what everyone will be/is doing. Then they are free to dominate trade lanes, monopolize raw resources, and get the best freeholds, guild castles, etc. leaving very little for casual players to enjoy as they derp around doing casual things (exploring and enjoying the various aspects of the game sub-optimally).

A Solution
One way to counteract this dominant Meta-playstyle would be to drastically dampen the impact of level scaling! I know, I know - it's an RPG and it feels good to get stronger... But think about it!! Why does someone 15 levels higher NEED to absolutely stomp you with no hope for a comeback? Why isn't it enough that they would be ~40% more powerful - still a fearsome foe with a healthy chance of winning, but not an invincible killing machine. And think about how this scales to group play. Being 10x stronger than your opponents (let's say a level gap of 20 levels) means you're basically just chopping down trees as far as interaction goes. They won't be outdamaging your healers, and they won't be outhealing even one of your dps. And from the perspective of the lower-level opponents, they are in a death simulator.

And think about the consequences for the social dimensions of the game - will it really be interesting for a guild of casual players to interact with a tweaked out guild of hardcore players who are effectively gods in comparison? How can you engage in meaningful politics when you can be 1-tapped in any situation that matters?

This would also fix another major issue that I see people complaining about: The level range for parties being too narrow. In a flattened power scaling situation, we could open up the level range of PvE farming groups significantly! This means more opportunities for collaboration and more chances to play with friends. These are huge wins that just occurred to me while writing this post. I really can't stand not being able to play with a buddy because I missed playing for a weekend and now we're 5 levels apart.

A Proposal
Now I'm into pure conjecture territory, but I'll take a risk and throw numbers out here. Here is as far as I would push the flattening of the stats.
Imagine trying to balance the game as follows:

10x level 10's can roughly match 8x level 20's of equal gear quality (the level 20's are 25% stronger individually)
10x level 20's can roughly match 8x level 30's of equal gear quality (the level 30's are 25% stronger individually)
10x level 30's can roughly match 8x level 40's of equal gear quality (the level 40's are 25% stronger individually)
10x level 40's can roughly match 8x level 50's of equal gear quality (the level 50's are 25% stronger individually)

That means 20x level 10's could put up a fight against 10x level 50's FROM A PURE STAT PERSPECTIVE (not accounting for the better spells, which is a huge differentiator).

Why should we exclude lower level players from having even a slight chance at doing something meaningful in an open world, political PvX game? The single-player RPG scaling model is flawed in this context and needs to be normalized down into a reasonable place.

Summary
By drastically dampening the level and gear scaling, Ashes of Creation can deliver on its vision in several ways:

Making any given open world PvP interaction more likely to be fun.
Expanding the scope of fellow players we can group with.
Letting casual players have an impact.
Giving more breathing room for the PvE/exploration/crafting-based players to enjoy the game.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Syraleaf

Ok so this was the kind of post I was almost too scared to make because I expect massive backlash but I'm fully agreeing with your point and even dare push harder: Should levels even give you a direct stat advantage in pvp at all? As far as I'm concerned you already get a massive power spike because you have a more rounded set of abilities and likely have better gear because you've been playing for much longer. PvE enemies could take more damage from you based on your level, making it so that they're still a proper challenge and that level up still rewards bigger challenges in the future.

I think it's much more interesting if everyone can put up a fight. It'd make every pvp encounter a challenge and allow even the most veteran of veterans to slip up and die sometimes. I don't think we're doing anyone a service by offering them a pvp scenario that they have no way of winning (or no way of losing, for that matter)

SmileGurney

Who is going to tell him? I get your fixation with the power differences between player levels, but that is a gap which can be easily addressed by levelling your character. Assuming you work in a group, you can level your char to 25 in a matter of days or less if you intend to no-life that.

The real content gatekeeping disaster in the making is also related to purely stat based power gap between players. That is also all down to damage stat stacking, gear rarity, enchanting and other buffs. That gap is immense, breaks the RPG aspects all together as atm it leads to players being able to 1-2 shot each other thanks to how far behind that curve the Intrepid design teams seem to be with the realities of the game atm. I'm talking lvl 25 vs lvl 25 situations btw.

In some of our recent friendly skirmishes, we literally half undressed our geared players to give the other players/group a fighting chance. I mean who doesn't love getting 1-2 shotted in a game which is supposed to be an RPG?

You are right to believe that massive power gaps, especially in a game you genuinely can lose something, will fuel even bigger power gaps, general frustration with the game and result in players being gatekept from a lot of game content, or having no chance of achieving anything in it beyond being a free kill. The game world is currently too small to find alternative areas to farm efficiently, or access those game systems and content which are heavily contested.

This wouldn't be the first game we have seen it happen. The growing power gap will result in a creation of "have it all" groups and those who won't be even able to participate in the game content without being harassed by the bored and already geared "chicken dinner winners". They won't be able to contest farming spots, run caravans, acquire and maintain freeholds, nodes or even level up their crafters. The winners meanwhile will look for new ways to create content for themselves. Some will turn to griefing the newbies and being as disruptive as possible. Others will get bored and lose interest as there will be no challenge in the pvx content left for them.

A lot of "losers" will eventually decide they have no reason to waste their time in the game, as they will feel cheated of their time and dissatisfied with personal/group progress. The winners will also get bored and leave, as there will be no challenge left or people to grief. Not necessarily in that order.

Whatever Intrepid is able to balance the systems which allow for character, gear progression, the sense of power especially in the pvp context will decide the long term success of Ashes. Also the balance between the "old school" game experience and players willingness to spend their time in the game.

The competitive aspects of many game systems have written pvp into them, but people will simply refuse to participate in them unless they see a chance for a "fair" competition and good time. Refusal might be as simple as "surrendering" in wars, or far more impactful for Intrepid, such as poor player retention, whatever we are talking whole communities abandoning the game (I have seen that across multiple titles) or just people slowly dropping off, which is equally bad for sandbox game system which thrive on high player numbers.

Neskartu

@Syraleaf
I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one. I think you raise an interesting point about gear being the only determinant of power, but I think we then lose a bit of the feel of the RPG aspect. I like the feeling of my character progressing and I wouldn’t like that to go away. It just feels too shallow from a character building perspective if gear is our only determinant of our power.

Neskartu

@SmileGurney
As I said in my post, my proposed scaling is inclusive of both level and gear power so I think we are in agreement.

I get your fixation with the power differences between player levels, but that is a gap which can be easily addressed by levelling your character. Assuming you work in a group, you can level your char to 25 in a matter of days or less if you intend to no-life that.

You make a valid point about the early levels, but I think what is more relevant in the long term is the power differential between a geared level 50 and a level 38 who decided to explore horizontal progression. I think the level 38 should only be approx 30-40% weaker including levels/gear.

Volgaris

I don't really see this as an issue. Just level up. Eventually everyone will be max level and 90% of the game will lose its reason to exist. Now if leveling was slowed down then maybe a better power balancing mechanic would be needed. But it'd have to be slowed WAYYY down for a power balance to be effective.

SmileGurney

Neskartu wrote: »

@SmileGurney
As I said in my post, my proposed scaling is inclusive of both level and gear power so I think we are in agreement.

I get your fixation with the power differences between player levels, but that is a gap which can be easily addressed by levelling your character. Assuming you work in a group, you can level your char to 25 in a matter of days or less if you intend to no-life that.

You make a valid point about the early levels, but I think what is more relevant in the long term is the power differential between a geared level 50 and a level 38 who decided to explore horizontal progression. I think the level 38 should only be approx 30-40% weaker including levels/gear.

That's fair, I personally have no problem with your take on it. I was always a proponent of horizontal and not vertical progression in RPGs, especially from the perspective of competitive play. I do find it funny that discussions like this tend to bring out some p̶e̶r̶l̶ stat clutchers, who love the idea of one shotting everything.

Syraleaf

Neskartu wrote: »

@Syraleaf
I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one. I think you raise an interesting point about gear being the only determinant of power, but I think we then lose a bit of the feel of the RPG aspect. I like the feeling of my character progressing and I wouldn’t like that to go away. It just feels too shallow from a character building perspective if gear is our only determinant of our power.

I think there are ways to do that. The world itself could reflect your increase in power while the pvp aspect ignores it as much as possible, making for a fairer fight. I agree that we'd need to be careful with this though. I do want leveling up to feel meaningful. It does need to feel like you're getting somewhere when you level.

Veeshan

when it comes to enchanting there 3 issues

1. armor/MR doesnt increase enough per enchant offensive power increase at a faster rate than defence
2. Seconary stats bonus on gear isnt enough +1 on attack speed for example is realy bad compared to say +1 on a dex line which gives like 2 attack speed 2 crit and 1 evasion or something along those line so secondary stats need to get like +2 or 3 to compensate
3. Primary stats to strong same problem with number 2 but reverse it to strong when it comes to enchanting so basicly you only want gear with Str/Dex/Con/ment or Int/Wis/Ment/con and u kinda ignore most other pieces due to when u start enchanting the primary stats are just way to strong in comparison secondaries when it comes to enchanting

Daave

Yeah each level makes such a huge difference currently in raw stats, it’s kinda weird imo. One way to keep the powerful achievement feeling still is if scaling within a level tier (10-19, 20-29 etc) is minor, but once you cross that threshold it’s a much more noticeable change.

Noaani

Keep in mind, the notion of risk vs reward demands that an activity that takes a long time (a high risk) has a high reward.

If leveling power gain was lowered, leveling speed would need to be increased.

As it is now, you spend a lot of time leveling, but when you do gain a new level, it is an actual, noticable reward.

With the suggestion of only gaining 25% over all power every 10 levels - including gear upgrades (within the same gear quality) would mean gaining levels is not a noticable increase in power. If you are fighting the same mobs and gain even 2 or 3 levels, you still wouldn't actually notice them getting any easier. That isn't a reward for the time you have put in.

That makes the entire process of leveling less rewarding - the entire entry point to the game less rewarding.

The other thing to keep in mind is that when the game is live, the expectation is that 90%+ if all in game time played will be played at max level - as is the case in every other MMORPG ever. This means that messing with anything below max level (which we have not seen yet) is pointless if we are talking about the game in any kind of long term manner - and anything involving politics, alliances and/or betrayal is absolutely long term.

Any situation where we are talking about players of different levels in PvP is not a discussion that needs to happen - unless there is some situation by which those lower level players are completely prevented from being able to level. As long as gaining levels is a viable option for them, there are no issues - they just need to put in the effort.

Child Item