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[Feedback] Why Ashes is currently destined to fail...

24

Comments

  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Never met anyone one that been through a 12 step program?

    First step is admitting there is a problem.

    You mean like when they said this is an alpha test and there WILL be bugs?

    That is all the "admitting" Intrepid need to do. They don't need to go out and appologise to each tester that comes across each bug.

    However, my point isn't with Intrepid, it is with people that feel they need acknowledgement, as if that fixes anything.

    Once again, if you have an issue that requires an actual fix, an acknoewledgement means nothing. The fix is what you are actually after. If you are happy after the acknowledgement but before the fix, then you never had an issue in the first place, you had a case of wanting to be a pretty little princess.

    An acknowledgement alleviates anxiety and helps relax a player because they know even if the problem isn't being fixed they are on a list to be fixed.
    Yeah, it fixes being a princess.

    This is an alpha, people shouldn't feel the need to have each bug they find acknowledged.

    some people need more engagement from leadership then others. It happens not a big deal just have to adjust accordingly.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Never met anyone one that been through a 12 step program?

    First step is admitting there is a problem.

    You mean like when they said this is an alpha test and there WILL be bugs?

    That is all the "admitting" Intrepid need to do. They don't need to go out and appologise to each tester that comes across each bug.

    However, my point isn't with Intrepid, it is with people that feel they need acknowledgement, as if that fixes anything.

    Once again, if you have an issue that requires an actual fix, an acknoewledgement means nothing. The fix is what you are actually after. If you are happy after the acknowledgement but before the fix, then you never had an issue in the first place, you had a case of wanting to be a pretty little princess.

    An acknowledgement alleviates anxiety and helps relax a player because they know even if the problem isn't being fixed they are on a list to be fixed.
    Yeah, it fixes being a princess.

    This is an alpha, people shouldn't feel the need to have each bug they find acknowledged.

    some people need more engagement from leadership then others. It happens not a big deal just have to adjust accordingly.

    Yes, those people that feel they need more engagement from leadership do indeed need to adjust accordingly, and it is not a big deal.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Never met anyone one that been through a 12 step program?

    First step is admitting there is a problem.

    You mean like when they said this is an alpha test and there WILL be bugs?

    That is all the "admitting" Intrepid need to do. They don't need to go out and appologise to each tester that comes across each bug.

    However, my point isn't with Intrepid, it is with people that feel they need acknowledgement, as if that fixes anything.

    Once again, if you have an issue that requires an actual fix, an acknoewledgement means nothing. The fix is what you are actually after. If you are happy after the acknowledgement but before the fix, then you never had an issue in the first place, you had a case of wanting to be a pretty little princess.

    An acknowledgement alleviates anxiety and helps relax a player because they know even if the problem isn't being fixed they are on a list to be fixed.
    Yeah, it fixes being a princess.

    This is an alpha, people shouldn't feel the need to have each bug they find acknowledged.

    some people need more engagement from leadership then others. It happens not a big deal just have to adjust accordingly.

    Yes, those people that feel they need more engagement from leadership do indeed need to adjust accordingly, and it is not a big deal.

    Yeah some of them will need to. Others won't. But it would be best to let them know every so often they are listening.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Never met anyone one that been through a 12 step program?

    First step is admitting there is a problem.

    You mean like when they said this is an alpha test and there WILL be bugs?

    That is all the "admitting" Intrepid need to do. They don't need to go out and appologise to each tester that comes across each bug.

    However, my point isn't with Intrepid, it is with people that feel they need acknowledgement, as if that fixes anything.

    Once again, if you have an issue that requires an actual fix, an acknoewledgement means nothing. The fix is what you are actually after. If you are happy after the acknowledgement but before the fix, then you never had an issue in the first place, you had a case of wanting to be a pretty little princess.

    An acknowledgement alleviates anxiety and helps relax a player because they know even if the problem isn't being fixed they are on a list to be fixed.
    Yeah, it fixes being a princess.

    This is an alpha, people shouldn't feel the need to have each bug they find acknowledged.

    some people need more engagement from leadership then others. It happens not a big deal just have to adjust accordingly.

    Yes, those people that feel they need more engagement from leadership do indeed need to adjust accordingly, and it is not a big deal.

    Yeah some of them will need to. Others won't. But it would be best to let them know every so often they are listening.

    That is what patch notes are for - when there is something worth talking about.

    There is literally no point in talking if you don't have something to say.
  • TTNLBTPDTTNLBTPD Member, Alpha Two
    Its_Me wrote: »
    Have to admit, the title is such a turnoff, I stopped there.

    If you have something constructive to say, perhaps consider titling it so that people do not get the immediate impression (whether accurate or not) that this is just another unconstructive negative doomsday post.

    It wasn't the title. It was the wall of text that stood behind it. So long, I didn't read a single word of it...
  • Its_MeIts_Me Member, Alpha Two
    TTNLBTPD wrote: »
    Its_Me wrote: »
    Have to admit, the title is such a turnoff, I stopped there.

    If you have something constructive to say, perhaps consider titling it so that people do not get the immediate impression (whether accurate or not) that this is just another unconstructive negative doomsday post.

    It wasn't the title. It was the wall of text that stood behind it. So long, I didn't read a single word of it...

    I do not mind walls of text, I just need to feel it is worth the time to start reading....
  • tropicalrushtropicalrush Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 16
    OP listed some important points of criticism, and that's what we should be focused on. How to solve those issues? Today, my interest is focused on caravans:
    Running and defending a caravan should have some tangible risk, just not to the point where players are discouraged due to tyrant pvp guilds. BUT you can't stop the aggressor from attacking caravans. That's part of the fun; if it's red it's dead. Solutions?

    I have seen suggestions to give defenders the ability to surrender to attackers, and that way the caravan is saved and only the cargo is lost. Or just gold if a ransom is paid. But the entire PvE cargo is still lost to PvP griefers.

    But the attackers gain nothing! I have 2 suggestions, a simple one and a complicated one:


    1. Simple -> Create caravan-specific PvP rewards, and let defender keep his PvE crates. They just lose the caravan + Launch Fee, and feed rewards to attackers over and over until they arrive at destination. So maybe add diminishing returns somewhere, and/or offer similar PvP rewards to attract caravan defenders.
    Also: caravans should be unattackable by citizens of the same departure and arrival nodes. If a PuG group is composed of citizens from various nodes, then having even 1 co-citizen in the group will cause the caravan to turn Friendly :)

    2. Complicated -> My suggestion would be to give defenders the option to buy Crate Insurance (lol) from the node. This would either replace/iterate/compliment the "Launch Fee" by a variable pricing formula. .
    If a player pays for crate insurance and their caravan gets griefed they only lose the caravan, and attackers get rewarded with a PvP currency equivalent to Glint which can be used to purchase PvP-oriented rewards such as mounts, cosmetic items, or even contribute to their ranking in a weekly caravan-slaying PvP ladder. (not gold, for economic reasons. We need to limit gold creation to control inflation over time). Gankers should get PvP rewards that contribute to their node or their character. Defenders should just lose time and manageable amounts of gold. And the amount of crate insurance bought by caravan runners will determine the amount of PvP rewards obtainable by the attackers. Thus caravan cargo farmed via PvE, cannot be lost via PvP events. The loss from a PvP event should not affect items/cargo obtained via PvE, and vice versa.

    Players will never lose their insured crates, and they can be marked with a green text like "stolen" items are marked in red text. Green text remains until the caravan arrives at destination and Objective Complete! The insurance must be paid in gold by the player running the caravan. It is paid to an unaffiliated NPC located in the node, maybe standing next to the caravan master...? Or just replace/redesign the launch fee? And this method also helps remove gold from the economy. This not only acts as a way to reduce a server's money supply and inflation, but also prevents corruption by the players.

    The price of insurance should be fixed by the server, and not by the players. We don't want to see uninsurable nodes, or corrupted guilds ganking their own caravans just to increase price of insurance...
    The price could just be linked to the route and it's potential profit, and/or also be based on the caravan player's level, their PvP rank, their gearscore, etc...

    That's how players can always find a route somewhere on the map to make money with caravans, while PvPers can enjoy hunting and killing caravans non-stop. Or defend 24/7 if defenders can also get caravan-specific PvP rewards!




  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    TTNLBTPD wrote: »
    Its_Me wrote: »
    Have to admit, the title is such a turnoff, I stopped there.

    If you have something constructive to say, perhaps consider titling it so that people do not get the immediate impression (whether accurate or not) that this is just another unconstructive negative doomsday post.

    It wasn't the title. It was the wall of text that stood behind it. So long, I didn't read a single word of it...

    That's cute. you called that a wall of text.
  • DracknarDracknar Member, Alpha Two
    The title was a bit hard to get by, but I did end up agreeing with prety much all points made in the post.
  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member, Alpha Two
    you now have 1 map to travel.... image the game launched and you need move from north to south the entire map... this will take hours... major issue..

    Also not solo friendly is an issue
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    you now have 1 map to travel.... image the game launched and you need move from north to south the entire map... this will take hours... major issue..

    To be fair, this is an intended feature a number of us are looking forward to. The world is big, and it feels big because fast travel and flying mounts don’t diminish its scale.

    And -
    Also not solo friendly is an issue

    the scale of the world is what allows solo players to explore, find less populated nodes, and grow at their own pace away from the major population centers.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • gogupsngogupsn Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 17
    I think folks put too much faith The wold will be Huge at launch. Pretty sure it will not be,like 3x it is now,but with more content in it. And after that we will just be spoon fed a little bit,just like other mmos did Lotr,Tes etc. New area this month,New dungeon,2 months go by,another New zone and so on
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    gogupsn wrote: »
    I think folks put too much faith The wold will be Huge at launch. Pretty sure it will not be,like 3x it is now,but with more content in it. And after that we will just be spoon fed a little bit,just like other mmos did Lotr,Tes etc. New area this month,New dungeon,2 months go by,another New zone and so on
    I hope PiSo will ask Steven in his interview about this point.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    Also not solo friendly is an issue

    An issue they don't care about.
    CROW3 wrote: »
    you now have 1 map to travel.... image the game launched and you need move from north to south the entire map... this will take hours... major issue..

    To be fair, this is an intended feature a number of us are looking forward to. The world is big, and it feels big because fast travel and flying mounts don’t diminish its scale.

    And -
    Also not solo friendly is an issue

    the scale of the world is what allows solo players to explore, find less populated nodes, and grow at their own pace away from the major population centers.

    Which makes no difference, all that will happen is some guild will see that you have created something they want and you WILL be forced to render under Caesar, or else.
  • patrick68794patrick68794 Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 20
    Noaani wrote: »
    blktauna wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    People have some strange expectations.

    They aren't going to take people off of other aspects of the game to deal with issues some people are having on some servers.

    but acknowledgement goes a long way.

    No it doesn't.

    If you are having an issue that is appeased by it being acknowledged, you really don't have an issue.

    What an ignorant thing to say lol the developers acknowledging an issue tends to put people at ease, even if the issue isn't actually fixed immediately. It shows that the developers are aware and paying attention to their userbase, and will generally lead to some level of trust from said userbase.

    One of the absolute worst things you can do is not communicate with your users, and ignoring widespread and/or serious issues that have been reported is a very quick way to alienate your userbase and lose trust and confidence.
  • SmileGurneySmileGurney Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 21
    D3ATHSPARK wrote: »
    I originally thought this system was a way guilds transported their goods in bulk from node to node in order to sell them. Boy was I surprised to find out you are creating a system to literally print money and destroy the economy in a week.
    I mean how could that go wrong?
    y8yl02unlfxp.png

    Caravans money printers, the state of resource management systems, gatherable resource scarcity for some resources, and static resource spawn locations and resource respawn timers really undermine any idea we are supposed to be testing the game's economy in Phase2.

    Lack of features like guild bank, items literally disappearing from storage (soon also as a result of lost node wars), state of UI and UX when interacting with inventory, processing/crafting stations and the marketplace...just the final nails to the coffin of "economy testing" from my perspective.

    My lungs taste the air of Time,
    Blown past falling sands…
  • D3ATHSPARKD3ATHSPARK Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    D3ATHSPARK wrote: »
    I originally thought this system was a way guilds transported their goods in bulk from node to node in order to sell them. Boy was I surprised to find out you are creating a system to literally print money and destroy the economy in a week.
    I mean how could that go wrong?
    y8yl02unlfxp.png

    Caravans money printers, the state of resource management systems, gatherable resource scarcity for some resources, and static resource spawn locations and resource respawn timers really undermine any idea we are supposed to be testing the game's economy in Phase2.

    Lack of features like guild bank, items literally disappearing from storage (soon also as a result of lost node wars), state of UI and UX when interacting with inventory, processing/crafting stations and the marketplace...just the final nails to the coffin of "economy testing" from my perspective.

    Yes we are testing those things, but printing money is the most obvious failure. This would never work in any scenario. You are injecting gold into the game every day which means constant inflation. It's a TERRIBLE idea to begin with. At least with resources you don't have the gold to back them, and if there are enough sinks with node progression and professions it balances out.
  • crazysam87crazysam87 Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 24
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is a ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    blktauna wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    People have some strange expectations.

    They aren't going to take people off of other aspects of the game to deal with issues some people are having on some servers.

    but acknowledgement goes a long way.

    No it doesn't.

    If you are having an issue that is appeased by it being acknowledged, you really don't have an issue.

    What an ignorant thing to say lol the developers acknowledging an issue tends to put people at ease, even if the issue isn't actually fixed immediately.

    The argument wasn't that it doesn't put people at ease.

    The argument was that if you have an issue that is resolved by it being acknowledged, you have no issue.

    Since that is what my point was and is, it would seem that it is your comment that is ignorant - unless you think acknowledging an issue is in and of itself a fix to said issue.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    Well that's almost certainly true, but let the members of The Cult of Steven's Vision catch you saying that. This game is doing all kinds of new never before seen mechanics according to them.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • DroneTheMaskDroneTheMask Member, Alpha Two
    Bro, its an Alpha. They know there are issues that need resolved - all of your issues here are not issues they intend to have on release. You're just doom posting.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    People also forget that in most MMORPG's, instances are inherently group or raid content.

    The notion that a game based around player interaction and group can not have instances - or even be mostly instances - is just flat out incorrect.

    I'm not saying you should be wanting Ashes to have more instanced content, but if you want an open world MMORPG, have a real argument for it or don't bother arguing.
  • crazysam87crazysam87 Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 24
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    Oh but the studio sure has every right to develop a game based entirely on open-world content catered to guilds if they wish so. It's theirs and their investors money. They can't just pretend to be surprised when the game loses 80% of it's subs after 2 months and enters maintenance mode after just a year only to close shortly after. This isn't 2004 anymore. The market is oversaturated and you can't realistically have such designs in an mmo and have real hopes of it surviving. Especially a game of that proportion and cost. It's vital for an mmo in this era to have a balance between catering to hard-core players and casuals at the same time. Failing to do so is a grave mistake.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    First of all, a shared world does not necessarily mean shared content.

    Second of all none of what he said prevents group content. Nor does it address what he is talking about.

    He's saying these are all problems we had before and they were solved.
    Bro, its an Alpha. They know there are issues that need resolved - all of your issues here are not issues they intend to have on release. You're just doom posting.

    How exactly? They aren't going to instance the dungeons they already made that clear. Which by the way is the only way to solve this problem.

    Any other solution wont prevent anything, it might punish people for doing it, but then that's not a solution to the problem. It's a deterrent, which means people will still do it.

    And a deterrent won't work because there are factors now that didn't exist 26 years ago which complicate the issue. Like the fact that people can monetize this behavior. So even charging 60 dollars for every time a person is banned won't stop them because thier making 1000 dollars per video and they can get 4 or 5 videos of content before being banned. So pay 60 dollars for 5 grand? Yeah I would take that deal any day of the week, even if it comes with a few hours of editing.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?


    The notion that a game based around player interaction and group can not have instances - or even be mostly instances - is just flat out incorrect.

    I'm not saying you should be wanting Ashes to have more instanced content, but if you want an open world MMORPG, have a real argument for it or don't bother arguing.

    Who said there couldn't be instances? Ashes is slated to have roughly 20% instanced content.

    Last line sounds like you might need a hug. Hit up Dygz for that.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    Oh but the studio sure has every right to develop a game based entirely on open-world content catered to guilds if they wish so. It's theirs and their investors money. They can't just pretend to be surprised when the game loses 80% of it's subs after 2 months and enters maintenance mode after just a year only to close shortly after. This isn't 2004 anymore. The market is oversaturated and you can't realistically have such designs in an mmo and have real hopes of it surviving. Especially a game of that proportion and cost. It's vital for an mmo in this era to have a balance between catering to hard-core players and casuals at the same time. Failing to do so is a grave mistake.

    I'd be surprised if the game made it a whole year. It encourages the worst kind of toxic behavior, and punishes people that try to create any sense of community, it's actively hostile to new players, introduces levels of complications with no reward, the combat is extremely pedestrian, the classes are generic, they only have 7 classes which is insanely low (EQ had 14 on launch). There's only 1 tank, named Tank (which is symptomatic of the lack of imagination this game suffers from), one healer, again lack of imagination, I could keep going but I made my point.

    And to the people that will say, "uh, its like alpha bro there gonna fix all that" or "omg bro trust Steven's vision" everything I mentioned is planned.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 24
    Noaani wrote: »
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?


    The notion that a game based around player interaction and group can not have instances - or even be mostly instances - is just flat out incorrect.

    I'm not saying you should be wanting Ashes to have more instanced content, but if you want an open world MMORPG, have a real argument for it or don't bother arguing.

    Who said there couldn't be instances? Ashes is slated to have roughly 20% instanced content.

    Last line sounds like you might need a hug. Hit up Dygz for that.

    Steven and people like you. Instancing the boss fights means nothing. The bosses will get farmed and anyone that can't farm the entire dungeon won't bother.
  • JaymaJayma Member, Alpha Two
    he classes are generic, they only have 7 classes which is insanely low (EQ had 14 on launch).
    1. It's 8 archetypes.
    2. Wow had 9 classes to play (8 per faction) at launch.

    Not sure the number the classes mean anything by itself.
  • crazysam87crazysam87 Member, Alpha Two
    Jayma wrote: »
    he classes are generic, they only have 7 classes which is insanely low (EQ had 14 on launch).
    1. It's 8 archetypes.
    2. Wow had 9 classes to play (8 per faction) at launch.

    Not sure the number the classes mean anything by itself.

    For now, I'd rather Intrepid work on giving the game a stronger foundation than making more classes/archetypes. It's fine the way it is now, but other archetypes should be able to tank and heal. Having only one archetype for these roles isn't nearly enough. Warrior could easily have a set of talents that let them tank and bard could have a pure healing build. Some people like playing mmos while only doing a single role all the time and they will get bored pretty quickly if they only have a single archetype to enjoy.
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