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[Feedback] Why Ashes is currently destined to fail...

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  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    And nobody will go "accidentally" corrupt.

    People already have.

    And not being able to trade wont last. It prevents a person from getting the reward that they are supposed to get for the risk they took.

    Ya

    Because the system is incomplete and not working properly.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    kerrai wrote: »
    kerrai wrote: »

    Repeating what I said in the post is not moving the goal post. And you shouldn't bother responding to this.

    Ah, perhaps you’re right. It might be closer to special pleading than a traditional moving the goalposts. There’s a good strawman mixed in there, too, in the part where you repeatedly misconstrue opposing arguments and then make concessions on the other side’s behalf that they themselves would not make.

    And this is why you're on ignore. We're not debating the finer points of abortion. We're talking about a game system.

    Even if I wanted to move goal posts, I wouldn't need to because there are ten-thousand goalposts to get past.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    And nobody will go "accidentally" corrupt.

    People already have.

    And not being able to trade wont last. It prevents a person from getting the reward that they are supposed to get for the risk they took.

    Ya

    Because the system is incomplete and not working properly.

    That's the thing you're not getting. That's the only way to stop something like this. Except that wont work because then people won't participate in the system at all because you will be ensuring they get punished.

    The system needs to be loose enough for people to get away. Which allows for loopholes. And any loophole will be found out and exploited. And by the time the Devs realize what's happening and remove the exploit, assuming the can, they are going to be forced to make the same choice they had to make recently. Ban a shit ton of people, or piss everyone else off. They got away with only banning a few people this time, but next time that wont work. Because you won't be dealing with people that put hundreds of dollars and hours into the game already. That wont fly after the game has been launched.
  • truelyyytruelyyy Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Testing is a mess until they vastly increase map size, I won’t be testing until at least p3 start. Unfortunately the game systems currently lead to a lot of toxicity which should be recognised. I wish them all the best and I hope many issues are resolved in the next several months.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    truelyyy wrote: »
    Testing is a mess until they vastly increase map size, I won’t be testing until at least p3 start. Unfortunately the game systems currently lead to a lot of toxicity which should be recognised. I wish them all the best and I hope many issues are resolved in the next several months.

    Increasing the map size wont help as much as people think. Humans are naturally social creatures and we like to be near other people even if we don't want to interact with them. Ultimately it will lead to large parts of the world have very few people.
  • burrnastyburrnasty Member, Alpha Two
    People are over estimating the Zerg. Pirate's had a zerg once.. what happened to that?

    The map will grow and open up and there will always be a rival to challenge whoever's on top at the time.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    First of all, a shared world does not necessarily mean shared content.

    Second of all none of what he said prevents group content. Nor does it address what he is talking about.

    He's saying these are all problems we had before and they were solved.
    Bro, its an Alpha. They know there are issues that need resolved - all of your issues here are not issues they intend to have on release. You're just doom posting.

    How exactly? They aren't going to instance the dungeons they already made that clear. Which by the way is the only way to solve this problem.

    Any other solution wont prevent anything, it might punish people for doing it, but then that's not a solution to the problem. It's a deterrent, which means people will still do it.

    And a deterrent won't work because there are factors now that didn't exist 26 years ago which complicate the issue. Like the fact that people can monetize this behavior. So even charging 60 dollars for every time a person is banned won't stop them because thier making 1000 dollars per video and they can get 4 or 5 videos of content before being banned. So pay 60 dollars for 5 grand? Yeah I would take that deal any day of the week, even if it comes with a few hours of editing.

    Rereading the thread to see where the miscommunication is at.

    the stated intent is to has 20% for the content instanced:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing
    Approximately 20% of content in Ashes of Creation will be instanced.[1][2][3][4][5]

    You are correct shared world and shared content are different things.

    "Any other solution wont prevent anything, it might punish people for doing it, but then that's not a solution to the problem. It's a deterrent, which means people will still do it."

    Your right. That is the intent behind the incomplete corruption system. So if you want to curb stomp a noob you can but there will be consequences. They are intending to have it scale based off of level difference as well.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • VolgarisVolgaris Member, Alpha Two
    it's a work in progress.
    it's a place holder.
    it's an alpha.

    even though it's all true, it's tiring having them lean on these excuses all the time.

    with there being zero attention to instanced content to date it shows where the priorities are. I highly doubt there will be enough instanced content to keep those interested in it interested long enough.

    the issue i see is most the attention is put towards the content that places player vs player. so to win you have to make another lose. it's like 80% of the game is met to be contested. the winners will be the zergs and losers will generally leave the area or game, or join a zerg. then maybe you'll get zerg vs zerg which will run like total shit... so who ever can exploit it better will win.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?

    First of all, a shared world does not necessarily mean shared content.

    Second of all none of what he said prevents group content. Nor does it address what he is talking about.

    He's saying these are all problems we had before and they were solved.
    Bro, its an Alpha. They know there are issues that need resolved - all of your issues here are not issues they intend to have on release. You're just doom posting.

    How exactly? They aren't going to instance the dungeons they already made that clear. Which by the way is the only way to solve this problem.

    Any other solution wont prevent anything, it might punish people for doing it, but then that's not a solution to the problem. It's a deterrent, which means people will still do it.

    And a deterrent won't work because there are factors now that didn't exist 26 years ago which complicate the issue. Like the fact that people can monetize this behavior. So even charging 60 dollars for every time a person is banned won't stop them because thier making 1000 dollars per video and they can get 4 or 5 videos of content before being banned. So pay 60 dollars for 5 grand? Yeah I would take that deal any day of the week, even if it comes with a few hours of editing.

    Rereading the thread to find where the miscommunication is at.

    You are correct shared world and shared content are not the same thing. We agree.

    Instancing is stated as being 20% of the content.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing
    Approximately 20% of content in Ashes of Creation will be instanced.[1][2][3][4][5]
    We have only seen one small example of this. Most game have both open world and instanced dungeons.


    "He's saying these are all problems we had before and they were solved."
    Solved how? PvE only servers and instanced content?

    "Any other solution wont prevent anything, it might punish people for doing it, but then that's not a solution to the problem. It's a deterrent, which means people will still do it."

    And? That is the stated intent behind the corruption system. Giving people the choice to kill players as they wish for any reason they wish, But it will have a cost with it. I think this is a good thing. The system as it stands now is broken and is being worked on. I don't think it will launch as is.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    So the idea that a challenging came cannot be successful seems really short sighted.
    Challenge is good.

    Challenge and instancing are not incompatible ideals.

    Challenge from PvE has been proven to sell well.

    Challenge from PvP selling well in an MMORPG is completely unproven.

    For the record, Elden Ring is not that challenging. It's mid tier at best.

    Edit; also, Ashes will not have challenging PvE at all. The entire challenge aspect of Ashes is from PvP, meaning if there is no one there to challenge you, there is literally zero challenge.

    They have stated they will have challenging raid level pve in instances.

    Do you think they can't or won't do this?

    I missed this comment.

    I have not seen them make any comments from Intrepid about anything close to this since 2018.

    The combat system the game has excludes difficult raid encounters. They can have "difficult by Ashes standards" encounters, but not "difficult by MMORPG standards" encounters. Hard encounters require players get down to things that make a fraction of a fraction of a percent difference in their own performance, and have an in depth understanding of what is happening in that fine a detail.

    Ashes combat system has switched over from being something players can be informed about in that detail down to being outright luck well before we get to that level. This means the window of player performance that is "good enough" in Ashes needs to be more like a fold away wall, rather than a window.
    Maybe it's because I am old but I remember when looking at a significant challenge and working to overcome it was seen as a virtue. Now everything needs to be oversimplified or made so everyone can do it.
    I agree, challenge is good.

    The thing is, challenge all the time is tiring. My current job is challenging, and I love it. It is rewarding.

    When I finish for the day, if I go to get a coffee, I don't expect to have to win in a boxing match in order to get it. I've done my challenging thing for the day, and now I want a coffee.

    Intrepid do not understand this. They (by they, I mean Steven) just has the notion of "challenge = good" in his head (because he is not a game developer), and so is applying challenge to everything. It would be like needing to win that boxing fight to get your after work coffee.

    Challenge is good, but challenge has it's place. A lack of challenge is also good, if that is in the right place.
  • faucifauci Member, Alpha Two
    Here is the simple solution.

    Bigger map

    More mats

    More mobs & dungeons

    And to have you tanks GPH below 400.


    Going to piss of the solo players.


    This is an MMO RPG

    MASSIVE MULTI PLAYER

    Join a zerg like everyone else it's why we are here. Otherwise I hear fable 2 is on sale if you want a solo RPG
  • VolgarisVolgaris Member, Alpha Two
    fauci wrote: »
    Join a zerg like everyone else it's why we are here. Otherwise I hear fable 2 is on sale if you want a solo RPG

    If I have to join a zerg group to play the game, well I'm not playing. If you mean join a Guild, well sure of course. But a normal guild that's actually just 1 guild isn't a zerg. A zerg group is the multi guild, cesspool fest you see right now. Lets say people don't walk away, which they have been, it was dead this weekend, and they do join a zerg group. And the game is full of zerg vs zerg action. Even that is going to suck, it runs like poop, and it's not fun for long. You're right there's lots of other games and people are off playing those, I have been. Encouraging people leave is dumb, this game doesn't work without a massive player base. There a legitimate issues with the world pvp that is thrown off balance because the current zerg meta. This is the right place to voice them. everyone saying 'there's the door' or 'don't let it hit you on the way out' is just hurting the game. We're all testers and we all want the game to succeed.
  • faucifauci Member, Alpha Two
    Volgaris wrote: »
    fauci wrote: »
    Join a zerg like everyone else it's why we are here. Otherwise I hear fable 2 is on sale if you want a solo RPG

    If I have to join a zerg group to play the game, well I'm not playing. If you mean join a Guild, well sure of course. But a normal guild that's actually just 1 guild isn't a zerg. A zerg group is the multi guild, cesspool fest you see right now. Lets say people don't walk away, which they have been, it was dead this weekend, and they do join a zerg group. And the game is full of zerg vs zerg action. Even that is going to suck, it runs like poop, and it's not fun for long. You're right there's lots of other games and people are off playing those, I have been. Encouraging people leave is dumb, this game doesn't work without a massive player base. There a legitimate issues with the world pvp that is thrown off balance because the current zerg meta. This is the right place to voice them. everyone saying 'there's the door' or 'don't let it hit you on the way out' is just hurting the game. We're all testers and we all want the game to succeed.

    Do small countries with 10 million people stand a chance against large countries with 100s of million people? You cannot change reality, if you want a smaller guild you get the smaller guild experience make an alliance. This is every MMO with pvp ever made ever.

    Otherwise become a vassal or quit and go play something else.
  • VolgarisVolgaris Member, Alpha Two
    fauci wrote: »
    Volgaris wrote: »
    fauci wrote: »
    Join a zerg like everyone else it's why we are here. Otherwise I hear fable 2 is on sale if you want a solo RPG

    If I have to join a zerg group to play the game, well I'm not playing. If you mean join a Guild, well sure of course. But a normal guild that's actually just 1 guild isn't a zerg. A zerg group is the multi guild, cesspool fest you see right now. Lets say people don't walk away, which they have been, it was dead this weekend, and they do join a zerg group. And the game is full of zerg vs zerg action. Even that is going to suck, it runs like poop, and it's not fun for long. You're right there's lots of other games and people are off playing those, I have been. Encouraging people leave is dumb, this game doesn't work without a massive player base. There a legitimate issues with the world pvp that is thrown off balance because the current zerg meta. This is the right place to voice them. everyone saying 'there's the door' or 'don't let it hit you on the way out' is just hurting the game. We're all testers and we all want the game to succeed.

    Do small countries with 10 million people stand a chance against large countries with 100s of million people? You cannot change reality, if you want a smaller guild you get the smaller guild experience make an alliance. This is every MMO with pvp ever made ever.

    Otherwise become a vassal or quit and go play something else.

    It's odd to compare fantasy worlds to real world... I think the largest army on the planet is N Korea. And Russian ain't doing so hot against Ukraine... But how is that even compared to Ashes of Creation, that's just dumb. I did play this weekend and it was dead, i think more people were logged into Animal Crossing. So this is a common sentiment. I pop in to check out changes and crawl the forum to see whats happening. But hey if you like playing in the zerg and licking pirates boots then go for it, enjoy it while it lasts because most people are already jumping ship, and your "Go play something else" attitude is just going to hurt the game and you in the end.
  • nemiisisnemiisis Member, Alpha Two
    I agree with basically everything.
    Currently rarity of nodes are static so people just find legendary nodes and camp them.
    Caravans should be ONLY to move resources, not print infinite money.
    Caravans should also be harder to attack, someone can just run into a caravan and attack it with 0 risk.
    Storage is one of my main pains in this game, even tho it wasn't addressed in this post.
    As a JM Miner, you cannot even mine for 20 minutes without your bags being full.
    Processing the ore/gems/stones requires all 4 of my storage tabs and even then i have problems juggling the new materials i get.
    Also the mob training at leveling spots is atrocious, the very first group i got into at Oakenbane keep got repeatedly griefed until everyone left.
    Once the level cap gets raised to level 50, new players are gonna be at such a disadvantage.
    Good luck running a caravan when a lv 50 can kill your caravan in 5 min with 0 risk.
  • Nihilistic ZenNihilistic Zen Member, Alpha Two
    OP, you've got the scale all wrong. The world is going to be so much bigger than this. Relax, eat a gummy and breath my friend, this game is gonna be great!
  • VolgarisVolgaris Member, Alpha Two
    OP, you've got the scale all wrong. The world is going to be so much bigger than this. Relax, eat a gummy and breath my friend, this game is gonna be great!

    A larger world isn't going to fix issues he has pointed out. The forum is a good place to point out issues you see, take a gummy after that, take a break from testing. But if you take too many gummies every game is going to be great.
  • dwarvensteelgamesdwarvensteelgames Member, Alpha Two
    edited March 1
    Noaani wrote: »
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    Devs forgot why we moved away from doing everything open-world to instancing the important parts (dungeons, raids, etc) for the sake of preventing exploiting, griefing and enabling large guilds to control everything. I love the game, but this is ticking time-bomb that might actually end up blowing way before release.

    People forgot that MMO's are by the very idea a group based game. Look at the overload of single player shared world experiences being labeled as MMO's.

    Why are we not allowed to have one game that centers on player interaction and grouping?


    The notion that a game based around player interaction and group can not have instances - or even be mostly instances - is just flat out incorrect.

    I'm not saying you should be wanting Ashes to have more instanced content, but if you want an open world MMORPG, have a real argument for it or don't bother arguing.

    Who said there couldn't be instances? Ashes is slated to have roughly 20% instanced content.

    Last line sounds like you might need a hug. Hit up Dygz for that.

    Steven and people like you. Instancing the boss fights means nothing. The bosses will get farmed and anyone that can't farm the entire dungeon won't bother.

    So the answer is easy mode so everyone can get a trophy?

    Homogenization is super boring. It is the main reason I hate GW2.

    I do find the idea that everyone should get everything with zero challenges an interesting one.

    Why should that be a thing. There are several ""MMO'S"" out there already that cater to those that want that.

    Why should everything be catered to the lowest common denominator vs expecting people to work to improve and rise to the challenge.

    As Hidetaka Miyazaki of Fromsoftware said "But when asked if he’d ever consider lowering the difficulty of these titles, Miyazaki firmly believes otherwise. According to him, reducing the difficulty would not only diminish the sense of achievement but “break the game itself.” This is rooted in his philosophy about how challenge and failure are essential to the experience."

    https://fandomwire.com/hidetaka-miyazakis-personal-philosophy-on-elden-ring-that-he-wont-ever-compromise-on-that-would-break-the-game-itself/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elden_Ring
    It sold over 28 million copies, also making it one of the best-selling games of all time.

    So the idea that a challenging came cannot be successful seems really short sighted.

    Comparing Elden Ring to an MMO is an apples to oranges comparison.
    Otr wrote: »
    crazysam87 wrote: »
    ... they are gonna pay dearly for their mistakes when the game launches.
    They keep asking for feedback on steam and forums.
    Alpha 2 will take at least 2 years.
    You think they'll reach full release if they get no feedback anymore because nobody plays?
    All those questions are useless if they ignore the answers.

    By the time the game releases it's going to be outdated I feel. And it's much harder for PvP focused MMOs to succeed.
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