Current forced pvp will kill the game

I agree with Steven that pvp should be for game political reasons, fight over resources, etc.
But ... people who can grief will always exist and Ashes will NEVER be able to control it.
Big Streamers will never be able to really cover the game and it will take revenue from the game.
Casual players will not want to login for 30 min and deal with a griever. If you can not play the game the way you want people will leave.
This will cause the game to be too niche. And I really really like playing Ashes ... this will be sad.

Bottom line, consider the unconsentual pvp system the way it is now. Your current penalties will not stop grievers, and you can not police it.

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sciffer2014

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

what idiot spends 2 hour gathing/farming and never does a bank break? to be fair they deserve to loose it if they dont bank often :P

That's a weird quote, player travel 15/20 minutes to gathering spot, spend 40 minutes gathering. Come back to their bank - that's a 20 minutes. So let's say an hour and half is the minimum time you'll likely spend on gathering at any given time.

Just because you focus on killing people who are 20 level bellow your character don't tell them they are idiots please !

sciffer2014

chickengeorge wrote: »

Sigtyr wrote: »

Steven has said many times that this game is not for everybody. There are core visions of this game that simply will not be changed, no matter how many times someone makes this thread.

Reduce your player base, great business model. I guess we'll find out in a few years.

They should be doing an official game pillar statement for MMO. I've been reading this one to figure out the overall direction, but it would be nice if the official site could hold a page for the design philosophy behind the game. : https://fr.ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars#:~:text=Ashes%20of%20Creation%20is%20a%20PvX%20game%20built%20on%20the,game%20will%20never%20be%20changed..

Personally I don't disagree that reducing your player base is kind of great business model. By focusing on what you wanna do, instead of how many player it is likely to attract, you'll be likely to keep your designated player base happy and stay in business longer. If you start catering to everyone like and dislike your game is likely to become generic and overall you'll start to cater unknowingly to a specific audience. Then you might still have a game, but your game will be dead.

Rockyfour

You can take a peak at Steam Charts and realize OP has no idea what he is talking about. PvP games are incredibly popular and just because all the PvP MMO's have been mediocre or filled with bugs and performance issues does not mean that this game needs to pivot from it's PvP focus even in the slightest.

sciffer2014

Rockyfour wrote: »

You can take a peak at Steam Charts and realize OP has no idea what he is talking about. PvP games are incredibly popular and just because all the PvP MMO's have been mediocre or filled with bugs and performance issues does not mean that this game needs to pivot from it's PvP focus even in the slightest.

Isn't it a PVX focus game ? I mean, I do agree that people who missed DAOC and stuff are looking for the next PVP focus MMO, but I don't believe this is it either. The PVP is likely to enter inside the risk vs. reward category as well and some player who are looking to reign supreme as they get into the PVP are also likely to feel like the game wants their death.

From experience, when a game start to say that it has a robust PVP system in mind, you'll start seeing a part of the community's eye turn red with blood - like shark smelling blood in the water - and they'll usually stop thinking about anything else which might have be said and just start believing PVP will rule the world.

Like don't get me wrong PVP game are OP on the steamchart, but you don't loose your Fortnite's skin when you loose a game. The risk vs reward system that MMO have to build-in in order to achieve balance is delicate when it comes to PVX and not "Realm vs. Realm" type of game.

At this point, it is likely that PVP will see nerf (PVP is actually incomplete at this point which is why corrupt system work this way ATM, from what I read. We are not a great place to start using our thinking cap, but still

). The game is focus on giving player agency over the development of the map through PVP but it has, from my understanding, been stated that the PVP will be a world defining system not really a dominant gameplay experience. So overall, the game is likely to have a more complex PVE, with a huge need for PVP in order to achieve specific goal. It is unlikely to be a huge PVP world, with some PVE in it. People who are looking for full on PVP experience are also likely to be ask to go seek an other game.

Hoboslapper

Not being able to toggle on/off pvp is a deal breaker for me, if want to PVP ill go to BGs or Arenas but I dont want to deal with grieffers while im out questing or gathering resources. Pitty it is shapping up to be a good MMO.

Noaani

Rockyfour wrote: »

You can take a peak at Steam Charts and realize OP has no idea what he is talking about. PvP games are incredibly popular and just because all the PvP MMO's have been mediocre or filled with bugs and performance issues does not mean that this game needs to pivot from it's PvP focus even in the slightest.

The key things all popular PvP games have in common is that they are all non-persistent.

A game where you enter in to a single match specifically for PvP, play through said match and then have no real consequences affecting your future gameplay is a very different thing to a game where you can be logged in to do something other than PvP, have PvP forced on you, and the results of that PvP has lasting effects on the game going forward for both of you - that is a very different thing.

If you are looking at "just PvP games" and not looking in any deeper than that, then I would say that it is you that has no idea what you are talking about.

Veeshan

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

This is kind of an incompatible notion to the idea of long travel times.

It now doubles (or more) the amount of time a player needs to spend gathering to get the same result.

I'm not offering a solution here. I'm just pointing out that this game has many inconsistencies and incompatibilities in its design. These things can be designed around, but designing around inconsistencies and incompatibilities usually results in jank in comparison to having g a grand over all design for the game that doesn't have those inconsistencies and incompatibilities.

Birqa

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

This is kind of an incompatible notion to the idea of long travel times.

It now doubles (or more) the amount of time a player needs to spend gathering to get the same result.

I'm not offering a solution here. I'm just pointing out that this game has many inconsistencies and incompatibilities in its design. These things can be designed around, but designing around inconsistencies and incompatibilities usually results in jank in comparison to having g a grand over all design for the game that doesn't have those inconsistencies and incompatibilities.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

risk vs reward. balance changes needed when we have all systems online eventually.

Noaani

Birqa wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

This is kind of an incompatible notion to the idea of long travel times.

It now doubles (or more) the amount of time a player needs to spend gathering to get the same result.

I'm not offering a solution here. I'm just pointing out that this game has many inconsistencies and incompatibilities in its design. These things can be designed around, but designing around inconsistencies and incompatibilities usually results in jank in comparison to having g a grand over all design for the game that doesn't have those inconsistencies and incompatibilities.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption

risk vs reward. balance changes needed when we have all systems online eventually.

Not sure what you think this fixes in terms of the inconsistency of a game that asks you to keep your harvested materials stored away while also asking you to travel a comparatively long time to get to those harvestable materials.

Corruption isn't just a "fix all" system.

Veeshan

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

This is kind of an incompatible notion to the idea of long travel times.

It now doubles (or more) the amount of time a player needs to spend gathering to get the same result.

I'm not offering a solution here. I'm just pointing out that this game has many inconsistencies and incompatibilities in its design. These things can be designed around, but designing around inconsistencies and incompatibilities usually results in jank in comparison to having g a grand over all design for the game that doesn't have those inconsistencies and incompatibilities.

Long travel times? there a bank within 2 minutes ride of anywhere in the map pretty much i stockpile shit in local banks till there a bunch of shit to carry at once to organise in main bank

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

ratbait wrote: »

Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

they learn not to gather 2 hours straight without banking a single time

This is kind of an incompatible notion to the idea of long travel times.

It now doubles (or more) the amount of time a player needs to spend gathering to get the same result.

I'm not offering a solution here. I'm just pointing out that this game has many inconsistencies and incompatibilities in its design. These things can be designed around, but designing around inconsistencies and incompatibilities usually results in jank in comparison to having g a grand over all design for the game that doesn't have those inconsistencies and incompatibilities.

Long travel times? there a bank within 2 minutes ride of anywhere in the map pretty much i stockpile shit in local banks till there a bunch of shit to carry at once to organise in main bank

You know built up nodes on alpha are more dense than they could be on live, right?

blobster

I think the main issue will be gated progression. If a big group can lock down a levelling area or a gathering area and those resources are unobtainable elsewhere, then you can have a problem because people not part of the main group will just loose interest and stop playing. Same thing happened in Throne and Liberty, where big guilds just got exponentially stronger because they could lock down world bosses and sieges and become unkillable making the pvp boring for everyone so people left en masse ( p2w had nothing to do with the failure of the game keeping a decent population )

IF you can make it so the smaller guilds are not made irrelevant due to locked items/progression then people will stay and play..

IMO hyper competitive pvp is only fun with games where you have session based pvp ( where skill is a bigger factor than gear and progress resets for each session/game )

In a persistent world, if you make characters exponentially stronger AND lock progression behind pvp, then you will inevitable make a setting where only the minority gets to be effective in pvp and this will destroy pvp altogether.. Sine pvp will not be fun for people who were locked out of progression ( they will be 1 shot ) it will also not be fun for the majority of the top guild ( since 1 shotting people is not fun in the long term)

IF you make the world big enough and where you have plenty opportunities to progress then it could be good. BUT then you also have the issue where guilds just dont interact.. No idea how to balance this haha

Noaani

blobster wrote: »

I think the main issue will be gated progression. If a big group can lock down a levelling area or a gathering area and those resources are unobtainable elsewhere, then you can have a problem because people not part of the main group will just loose interest and stop playing. Same thing happened in Throne and Liberty, where big guilds just got exponentially stronger because they could lock down world bosses and sieges and become unkillable making the pvp boring for everyone so people left en masse ( p2w had nothing to do with the failure of the game keeping a decent population )

IF you can make it so the smaller guilds are not made irrelevant due to locked items/progression then people will stay and play..

IMO hyper competitive pvp is only fun with games where you have session based pvp ( where skill is a bigger factor than gear and progress resets for each session/game )

In a persistent world, if you make characters exponentially stronger AND lock progression behind pvp, then you will inevitable make a setting where only the minority gets to be effective in pvp and this will destroy pvp altogether.. Sine pvp will not be fun for people who were locked out of progression ( they will be 1 shot ) it will also not be fun for the majority of the top guild ( since 1 shotting people is not fun in the long term)

IF you make the world big enough and where you have plenty opportunities to progress then it could be good. BUT then you also have the issue where guilds just dont interact.. No idea how to balance this haha

While I do agree with what you are saying, the above is essentially the core game design of Ashes.

So really, what you and I are saying is that the biggest issue with this game is that the focus of the core design of the game is bad.

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