PvP arena in cities (like a colosseum)

Kallysha wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Just to be clear, you know that people can just kill you while you're chopping trees, right?

Really!?? So do you also know there is corruption? pvpers dont exactly like to lose their gear (which they were forced to pve to get...)

Mhm, just making sure that I understood you.

Now I understand that you consider Corruption to be a strong enough defense that it removes all risk from gathering or crafting or general PvE. Not everyone actually believes that, so I asked.

Kallysha wrote: »

Where is the risk in that??

I guess you just don't read my responses at all, huh. Or just refuse to acknowledge them.

Ludullu wrote: »

I want proper balancing for corruption, not what we have right now. And by proper balancing I mean that the PKer who has a 0 PK counter can kill 2-3 times, which would be cleansable on mobs within roughly the same amount that the victim would need to return to the same place (this design would also require a much better placement of ember springs).

This way the victim has to gamble whether they really want to lose more of their stuff (and time) by dying to someone who might be on their first kill and that kill will go completely unpunished, or the victim should just fight back and not only lose less but also have a chance of winning the fight. This was also Steven's initial plan, which is exactly why flagged people are meant to lose less stuff on death.

I want PvX to happen EVERYWHERE, not just in a fucking little genocidal circle that only benefits the strong.

Lawless zones are literally a way to decrease pvp in the world, because it'll only happen in the lawless zones. That is the dumbest fucking system ever. Hell, even the faction-based bs is better than lawless zones ffs, because at least there the factions can go wherever they want and kill their enemies.

This has been the core of my argument from the start. Inclusion of lawless zones will directly take away from all the other pvp systems, because why the hell would Intrepid waste their time balancing all those systems when the sweaty gankers just scream "all we want is the lawless zones and we'll be happy", while pvers scream "all we want is an even harsher corruption, so that we cannot be killed and we'll be happy".

Except fuck both of those sides, because I want a PvX game and not what either of those sides want. I used to believe that Ashes would be that PvX game. And at least some of the promises related to that design haven't been officially walked back, so I'm still here giving my feedback in hopes of getting that PvX mmo, but the further we go the less hope I have for it.

Azherae wrote: »

Now I understand that you consider Corruption to be a strong enough defense that it removes all risk from gathering or crafting or general PvE. Not everyone actually believes that, so I asked.

I do say it removes 99% of the risk ye, even if they make corruption a lighter penalty than what it is right now, still i see no benefit for whoever does it, because for once (putting myself in that perspective) i could get whatever you got myself; unless that specific person is some type of hacker/stalker that knows for a fact what you exactly have in your possession and is too lazy to get it by himself « the only reason i see it happen (or you pissed someone off there is also that)

Ludullu wrote: »

I want PvX to happen EVERYWHERE, not just in a fucking little genocidal circle that only benefits the strong.

Lawless zones are literally a way to decrease pvp in the world, because it'll only happen in the lawless zones. That is the dumbest fucking system ever. Hell, even the faction-based bs is better than lawless zones ffs, because at least there the factions can go wherever they want and kill their enemies.

This has been the core of my argument from the start. Inclusion of lawless zones will directly take away from all the other pvp systems, because why the hell would Intrepid waste their time balancing all those systems when the sweaty gankers just scream "all we want is the lawless zones and we'll be happy", while pvers scream "all we want is an even harsher corruption, so that we cannot be killed and we'll be happy".

Except fuck both of those sides, because I want a PvX game and not what either of those sides want. I used to believe that Ashes would be that PvX game. And at least some of the promises related to that design haven't been officially walked back, so I'm still here giving my feedback in hopes of getting that PvX mmo, but the further we go the less hope I have for it.

....what you want is not exactly what everyone wants ok, lawless zones wont decrease pvp in the world but actually give to who likes to pvp an area/open space (not a contained enclosure...) to go to and find also others that want to pvp as well (otherwise pvp wont happen, as we have seen...) because if Steven/intrepid wanted pve and pvp to be in separate instances he would have go for it from the start and that doesnt seem to be the case, although arenas will be an instance, node wars/siege time gated and also well instance...

(plus if you were an avid pvper you would of know in the pvp world there is no sparkling fairy tales, there is always who is stronger and who is weaker and thats how it goes)

Kallysha wrote: »

plus if you were an avid pvper you would of know in the pvp world there is no sparkling fairy tales, there is always who is stronger and who is weaker and thats how it goes

And if you were on these forums more, you'd know that I'm one of the only ones promoting this exact attitude towards people.

Except I don't want that attitude to come in the way of the world being dangerous, rather than just a few places.

You want to kill people with no risk, I want everyone to have potential risk at all times. We both want more pvp, but I want fairer and more interesting pvp than you.

And you response to Azherae just proved this to me. You only carre about ganking someone for the sake of it, rather than for some other reason (such as loot or the content that they're doing). So if you just want to kill people, how would arenas not accomplish exactly that? All the pvpers can go hang out in the arenas and have their pure pvp fun, just as pure pvers will clear the story instances and move onto something else. All while the rest of the world should be dangerous at all times and at the same level, rather than only in specific spots and only at very specific times.

Like I've already said, majority of my gameplay in L2 consisted of pvping others for my pve. Yet none of that pvping required the game to have lawless zones. We simply had laxer corruption balance and proper war design. That's it. And that is exactly what I'm asking for Ashes.

And yes, not everyone wants the same thing. It's as if the game is not for everyone

Ludullu wrote: »

And your response to Azherae just proved this to me. You only care about ganking someone for the sake of it, rather than for some other reason (such as loot or the content that they're doing). So if you just want to kill people, how would arenas not accomplish exactly that? All the pvpers can go hang out in the arenas and have their pure pvp fun, just as pure pvers will clear the story instances and move onto something else. All while the rest of the world should be dangerous at all times and at the same level, rather than only in specific spots and only at very specific times.

Like I've already said, majority of my gameplay in L2 consisted of pvping others for my pve. Yet none of that pvping required the game to have lawless zones. We simply had laxer corruption balance and proper war design. That's it. And that is exactly what I'm asking for Ashes.

And yes, not everyone wants the same thing. It's as if the game is not for everyone

HUH? clearly you misunderstood, i advise you to read again, and its becoming to be clear you simply dont have the capacity to understand or more like choose not to understand, so its kinda pointless to keep on going... (plus i did mention above (guess you didnt read as well...) that i am a versatile pvper i dont only gank, ive successfully defend camps/keeps/towers/castle many times, take them as well ofc not alone, 1x1 in most cases actually skilled pvpers, small scale fights as of gankers/roamers against guess? other gankers/roamers, gvg even and also large scale zergvzerg or blobvblob, sometimes around 150+), for more than 10 years that was pretty much all i did in an mmo)

Kallysha wrote: »

HUH? clearly you misunderstood, i advise you to read again, and its becoming to be clear you simply dont have the capacity to understand or more like choose not to understand, so its kinda pointless to keep on going... (plus i did mention above (guess you didnt read as well...) that i am a versatile pvper i dont only gank, ive successfully defend camps/keeps/towers/castle many times, take them as well ofc not alone, 1x1 in most cases actually skilled pvpers, small scale fights as of gankers/roamers against guess? other gankers/roamers, gvg even and also large scale zergvzerg or blobvblob, sometimes around 150+), for more than 10 years that was pretty much all i did in an mmo)

Yes, you mentioned GW2's WvW, but afaik that's a separate mode of the game mostly for the exact purpose of pvping, while the rest of the game is way more relaxed and chill, with a ton of questing and stuff.

I want a dangerous world akin to Lineage 2, where at any point you can be killed by another player and you have no clue if they'll get away with that kill for free or not.

We might have similar experiences, but they differ in very crucial ways. And Ashes was leaning towards my experience much more than yours. Now it's changing sides. I personally prefer what I experienced, which is why I'm giving feedback around that.

Ludullu wrote: »

We might have similar experiences, but they differ in very crucial ways. And Ashes was leaning towards my experience much more than yours. Now it's changing sides. I personally prefer what I experienced, which is why I'm giving feedback around that.

So you see, for me lawless zones would be like a small portion of wvw (but not exactly) a small piece of land (not too small, but also not as big as they used to be (not engulfing nodes i do say)) where there isnt a fence around, but there is different terrain, you know rocks, trees, hills, bushes all those elements, while arenas dont really provide that and its a limited portion of space/area usually plane terrain and also limited on how many players can go, plus if im not mistaken not like there will be multiple instances and i believe there will be even a queue (matchmaking plus seasons), so not really ideal, that actually sounds more or pretty much like the actual gw2 pvp mode (there is 3 modes - pve/pvp/wvw) which was a system i didnt exactly like (also ' Arena points that can be used to buy gear is not currently in the design' while in gw2 you can get gear same for wvw); and well node wars/sieges are time gated and also an instance, you have to declare it which costs some good portion of gold or so and there it goes out of the window any element of surprise factor to it; also roamers prefer the more freestyle pvp, arenas arent that also the maximum amount of players will be 20x20 (more ideal for gvg) so you cant do a zvz and far less a bvb in there, hence why lawless zones are ideal for those type of pvpers, you can organize and do a zvz or bvb in there, they can even go there to practice for then the node wars encounters, or even if you guildless and just want some freestyle pvp without restrictions.

Because for a pvper there is always risk, you kill or you get killed (and also enough punishment in case of killing someone unflagged)

Kallysha wrote: »

where there isnt a fence around, but there is different terrain, you know rocks, trees, hills, bushes all those elements, while arenas dont really provide that and its a limited portion of space/area usually plane terrain and also limited on how many players can go

Arenas can have literally any kind of terrain and any kind of size. That's the whole point of them being open world, because they can be just placed wherever.

My issue is that "pvpers" are asking for lawless zones in the context of "well, people gonna be farming best pve here and I wanna kill them for free, while they do that".

The risk values here are beyond unbalanced. In almost every such situation the attacker has no droppable items on them, because their whole reason of coming to that location is to gank people, so they stand to lose nothing, while the target, who might've spent last few hours farming the best pve available, stands to lose a chunk of their loot.

And this kind of setup will inevitably lead to the only farmers in lawless zones being the strongest players in the realm, which will simply make them even stronger, which then usually leads to people leaving the game cause they see that their enemies have now snowballed into an undefeatable monster.

Or, even worse, they'll just join the zerg (if it was the zerg that is the strongest) and create a swamp realm which has no pvp at all, because literally everything is controlled by a single gigaguild.

I've literally seen all of this happen across dozens of servers that implemented lawless zones with best loot in the game, except in L2 people didn't drop their loot on death, so in Ashes this snowball situation will be infinitely worse.

Kallysha wrote: »

and well node wars/sieges are time gated and also an instance, you have to declare it which costs some good portion of gold

Wars will not be instanced. Steven himself also promised that we'd be able to fight 24/7 in wars, as long as the prime-time-based goal was not achieved during prime-time.

So, as I keep saying, lawless zones are just removing better designs from other mechanics and reducing them to "kill whoever you want in this spot".

Kallysha wrote: »

or so and there it goes out of the window any element of surprise factor to it

We already had the element of surprise in wars. People got ganked inside nodes, lost a ton of items because of it, complained a shitton and Intrepid had to resolve all of those issues on the spot instead of developing other parts of the game.

Wars are meant to have a proper cost on them (be it money or time), otherwise the entire situation turns into an endless genocide, which will just push even more people away from the game.

But I already addressed my views on pvp event death penalty issues, so no point in repeating that.

Kallysha wrote: »

also roamers prefer the more freestyle pvp, arenas arent that also the maximum amount of players will be 20x20 (more ideal for gvg) so you cant do a zvz and far less a bvb in there, hence why lawless zones are ideal for those type of pvpers, you can organize and do a zvz or bvb in there, they can even go there to practice for then the node wars encounters, or even if you guildless and just want some freestyle pvp without restrictions.

Literally all of this is doable just fine under the flagging system and a proper corruption balancing.

Again, L2 had a shitton of pvp of all sizes, but it never required lawless zones to achieve that. You still had solo or small group gankers, you had parties vs parties that would fight over content and you'd have insanely massive hundreds vs hundreds alliance fights over big bosses. ALL W/O LAWLESS ZONES.

And all because corruption was balanced properly and the potential victims knew that they might lose more time by not fighting (and in Ashes they'll definitely lose more loot as well).

Kallysha wrote: »

Because for a pvper there is always risk, you kill or you get killed (and also enough punishment in case of killing someone unflagged)

And I want that risk to be equalized across majority of players, instead of only a few hundred hardcore sweats that are ready to die in lawless zones, while everyone else lives in their happy little pvp-less world.

I want more pvp than you, but I want it in a better package than this.

Ludullu wrote: »

Arenas can have literally any kind of terrain and any kind of size. That's the whole point of them being open world, because they can be just placed wherever.

But they arent [ arenas ] 'Arenas are instanced PvP scenarios and are not part of open world PvP' you see, plus 'gladiatorial arena style' you know how the colosseum looks right?

Ludullu wrote: »

The risk values here are beyond unbalanced. In almost every such situation the attacker has no droppable items on them, because their whole reason of coming to that location is to gank people, so they stand to lose nothing, while the target, who might've spent last few hours farming the best pve available, stands to lose a chunk of their loot.

Listen i get what you want, but what you want i dont see it working... you can already see it, as expected pvers wont flag, there is also who doesnt play fair and likes to corruption baiting, that will still happen even if they do changes about the corruption system, again about lawless zones whoever dwells in there of his own free will knows the risk they are taking or should, and the people already in there are looking for what they want which is to find some pvp (how do you blame people in a pvp zone, looking for pvp, for doing exactly that?); also 'spent last few hours farming the best pve available, stands to lose a chunk of their loot.' that loot clearly seems to be intended to whom likes that content so they should be ready to encounter pvp, thats on those people, they should be aware is a simple as it goes.

...And those people being the strongest...so lets put it like this in a scenario of defending a node who do you think will be successful, a bunch of pvers? or pvpers? honestly that sentence doesnt even make sense to me, you know you pvers need us pvpers as we also need you to farm/do the boring stuff we dont want/like to, we both need each other thats the concept of a pvx game, just let the pvp stuff to us pvpers and you mind your pve business (also advisable befriending pvpers instead of coming at them, and complaining about pvp...)
Also hello marketplace, whatever is farmed there people will put that out in the marketplace...i dont get the worry. 'their enemies have now snowballed into an undefeatable monster' by experience have been in a sheer amount of outnumbered situations/fights/battles still managed to find a way to win, again let the pvp for the pvpers we can handle it, and if you help us instead of coming at us even better.

Ludullu wrote: »

Wars will not be instanced. Steven himself also promised that we'd be able to fight 24/7 in wars, as long as the prime-time-based goal was not achieved during prime-time.
So, as I keep saying, lawless zones are just removing better designs from other mechanics and reducing them to "kill whoever you want in this spot".

Ye i know, but here is the thing there are different types of pvpers ( duelers, roamers/gankers, zergers, there also those that just prefer to gvg) and not all of them will enjoy everything, and no its not removing they will still coexist just fine.

Ludullu wrote: »

Kallysha wrote: »

or so and there it goes out of the window any element of surprise factor to it

I do like the element of surprise tho and unpredictability...

Ludullu wrote: »

And I want that risk to be equalized across majority of players, instead of only a few hundred hardcore sweats that are ready to die in lawless zones, while everyone else lives in their happy little pvp-less world.
I want more pvp than you, but I want it in a better package than this.

'pvp-less world' i mean it can still exist but the major risk is on whoever attacks (corruption»losing gear»bounty hunted/wanted), you complaining of people going to lawless zones having the risk of losing their loot but out of lawless zones is even worse and actually for who attacks so, i see a balance in lawless zones existing.
'I want more pvp than you' a bit wild of you saying that to an actual pvper ngl 😄

Kallysha wrote: »

But they arent [ arenas ] 'Arenas are instanced PvP scenarios and are not part of open world PvP' you see, plus 'gladiatorial arena style' you know how the colosseum looks right?

And you do know that the literal colleseum could change its terrain to have different kinds of battles, including even small naval stuff, right? And an in-game colleseum can be so so much more than the irl one.

You're limiting your own view of arenas by trying to put them in a design box, instead of just asking Intrepid to do better.

Kallysha wrote: »

Listen i get what you want, but what you want i dont see it working...

And as I keep saying, I literally played with this system for years and it worked just fine. It all comes down to corruption balancing, but if we have lawless zones for pvpers then pvers will have all the rights to keep complaining about the weak harshness of corruption, which I do not want.

Kallysha wrote: »

you know you pvers need us pvpers as we also need you to farm/do the boring stuff we dont want/like to, we both need each other thats the concept of a pvx game

Like I already said, I don't give 2 shits about pvers or pvpers. I want pvxers in this game. People who always do both willingly. PvErs whine about pvp, pvpers whine about lack of genocidal designs. Both are fucking pussies. PvXers just play the game and have fun in it, no matter what.

Kallysha wrote: »

Also hello marketplace, whatever is farmed there people will put that out in the marketplace..

The only stuff that goes to the market from the best content in the game is the stuff that's so behind the progress curve that even the weakest player in the semi-strong guild doesn't need it. Everything else remains within the strong guilds that push out everyone else from the lawless zone.

And, yes, I've also beaten the odds in unbalanced pvp fights. Those are just exceptions to the general rule of "the strong always win". And I'm completely fine with that rule, but I don't want those strong people to then become completely unbeatable because they could prevent everyone else from becoming stronger.

Kallysha wrote: »

Ye i know, but here is the thing there are different types of pvpers ( duelers, roamers/gankers, zergers, there also those that just prefer to gvg) and not all of them will enjoy everything, and no its not removing they will still coexist just fine.

And as I've said a dozen times already, all of those pvpers can exist under the design I'm suggesting, because they existed and thrived in L2 w/o lawless zones.

If anything, I saw way fewer gankers on the L2 servers that DID have lawless zones, because those zones would be usually filled with either groups of players or the strongest chars on the server, so ganking was near-impossible. And it was completely useless in all the other regions of the game because the lawless zone had the best sources of progression, so the ganker types then had to join with bigger stronger guilds, which just led to their domination and snowballing to the point of server's death.

Kallysha wrote: »

I do like the element of surprise tho and unpredictability...

Wars (especially the guild ones) can still be declared as a surprise. Especially if, for fucking once, Steven sticks to his promise and gives us 24/7 pvp in wars. And I already said that gankers can surprise people just fine under the corruption system. Hell, if anything it's waaaaay fucking bigger of a surprise when LITERALLY ANYONE AT LITERALLY ANY TIME CAN ATTACK YOU IN LITERALLY ANY PLACE.

Where is the surprise when you're located in a zone that just screams "yeah, you gonna be attacked here - prepare for that". How is that in any way surprising?

Kallysha wrote: »

'pvp-less world' i mean it can still exist but the major risk is on whoever attacks (corruption»losing gear»bounty hunted/wanted), you complaining of people going to lawless zones having the risk of losing their loot but out of lawless zones is even worse and actually for who attacks so, i see a balance in lawless zones existing.
'I want more pvp than you' a bit wild of you saying that to an actual pvper ngl 😄

I want more pvp because I want every player in the game to want pvp, or at least want to participate in it. You want to split the playerbase into dudes that hang out in a specific part of the map at a specific time, while I want everyone on the map to constantly be on their toes because at any damn moment they might be killed for their loot or farming spot.

Our scales of pvp are much different.

Also, being hunted by a BH is also pvp. If you're a ganker who's so sure of their abilities - you surely can deal with a measly BH, right? Or are you only interested in preying on the weaker people that were minding their own business? Cause I, as a PvXer, want the proper challenge and cat-mouse chase, rather than just killing pvers while they're distracted by mobs.

Ludullu wrote: »

And you do know that the literal colleseum could change its terrain to have different kinds of battles, including even small naval stuff, right? And an in-game colleseum can be so so much more than the irl one.
You're limiting your own view of arenas by trying to put them in a design box, instead of just asking Intrepid to do better.

sigh ye i know...and ive already told you the concept looks very much like gw2 pvp mode and ive been there i know for a fact the instances are not that big at all and ye i guess they can put some obstacles just like existed in the gw2 ones but it was nothing that crazy or the natural terrain i specified.

Ludullu wrote: »

And as I keep saying, I literally played with this system for years and it worked just fine. It all comes down to corruption balancing,...
Like I already said, I don't give 2 shits about pvers or pvpers. I want pvxers in this game. People who always do both willingly. PvErs whine about pvp, pvpers whine about lack of genocidal designs. Both are fucking pussies. PvXers just play the game and have fun in it, no matter what.
And as I've said a dozen times already, all of those pvpers can exist under the design I'm suggesting, because they existed and thrived in L2 w/o lawless zones.
I want more pvp because I want every player in the game to want pvp, or at least want to participate in it. You want to split the playerbase into dudes that hang out in a specific part of the map at a specific time, while I want everyone on the map to constantly be on their toes because at any damn moment they might be killed for their loot or farming spot.

I also have said my opinion on your vision and why i dont see it work, i mean we can already see it doesnt... and here we are again the dream *A land of milk and honey plus ponies*.
Also the pvpers were vocal and said what they wanted so there is that.

Ludullu wrote: »

The only stuff that goes to the market from the best content in the game is the stuff that's so behind the progress curve that even the weakest player in the semi-strong guild doesn't need it.

Shrug there were also stuff that were locked to a certain type of content i didnt enjoy to do so i couldnt really get that and not like i was making a storm in a cup about it. Like Steven say embrace the suck!

Ludullu wrote: »

And, yes, I've also beaten the odds in unbalanced pvp fights. Those are just exceptions to the general rule of "the strong always win". And I'm completely fine with that rule, but I don't want those strong people to then become completely unbeatable because they could prevent everyone else from becoming stronger.

Well talk for yourself, it wasnt exactly exceptions for me, did happen quite often.

Ludullu wrote: »

Wars (especially the guild ones) can still be declared as a surprise. Especially if, for fucking once, Steven sticks to his promise and gives us 24/7 pvp in wars. And I already said that gankers can surprise people just fine under the corruption system. Hell, if anything it's waaaaay fucking bigger of a surprise when LITERALLY ANYONE AT LITERALLY ANY TIME CAN ATTACK YOU IN LITERALLY ANY PLACE.

Lord ye it all comes down to ye you dont have the capacity to understand, is just...not there, but what i meant was related to attacking objectives, the factor of surprise is gone there, and have you ever considered (welp clearly you didnt, because you still insist in pressing the same key) maybe the concept of gankers that you made in your head is not exactly accurate or applies to every single player out there just wondering.

Ludullu wrote: »

PvErs whine about pvp, pvpers whine about lack of genocidal designs.

To end what you call 'genocidal design' is what we pvpers call having fun!
Honestly dude i dont have time for this and your essays, i got more to do im sorry.

Vyllz

I still think a Colosseum-style PvP zone tied to military nodes would be a great way to give those nodes more unique identity.

Having spectators, cooldown resets, optional betting, and maybe even weekly ranked duels could turn it into a mini social hub within the city. It wouldn’t break balance if kept separate from open-world PvP rewards, but it would give players a way to show off builds, test fights, or just enjoy some competitive flavor in a controlled environment.

It could even tie into node progressionm, like a high-level military node unlocking special arena events. What do you all think?

Kallysha wrote: »

To end what you call 'genocidal design' is what we pvpers call having fun!

And the entire damn point of having a corruption system in Ashes was exactly to limit that kind of gameplay. Yet Steven is now going back on his own word and design...

Ludullu wrote: »

Kallysha wrote: »

To end what you call 'genocidal design' is what we pvpers call having fun!

And the entire damn point of having a corruption system in Ashes was exactly to limit that kind of gameplay. Yet Steven is now going back on his own word and design...

It seems we are all in for a Dune: Awakening.

More seriously, the player who wants heavy strategic combat has less general interest in most implementations ofArenas, I think, particularly in a game where there's no gear Equalization (I am not arguing for this).

Well, I'll have additional data for it in a month or so.

Azherae wrote: »

It seems we are all in for a Dune: Awakening.

Yeah, if I had the money for it, I think I might've tried it out. Though from what I've heard, so far it's mostly about soloable pve/crafting grind and thopter pvp.

I also didn't get too far into the books cause my electricity stopped going out, so I wouldn't be able to enjoy the lore to the fullest sadly.

Azherae wrote: »

More seriously, the player who wants heavy strategic combat has less general interest in most implementations ofArenas, I think, particularly in a game where there's no gear Equalization (I am not arguing for this).

The funny thing is that the loudest lawless zone proponents seem to be solo/small group gankers, rather than bigger guilds or full groups (at least from the feedback I've seen). Most likely cause those bigger groups have ways of getting pvp by just fighting each other and have higher chances of the enemy flagging up, while solo player can only really gank other solos or try harassing small groups that are fighting mobs.

I personally don't see much strategic leaning in that kind of gameplay, but that's probably more of a "my unique outlook on the entire premise of pvp/x" situation rather than anything else.

It gives off even less strategic gameplay, when the people asking for lawless zones say they don't care about the loot or pve behind their kills, but also say that they're not interested in arenas. I can at least see soooome strategy in going "yeah, this dude has been farming this spot for a while, so if I kill him I might get something juicy and also delete some of his other marketable loot". But kills for the sake of kills, while denying that arenas can provide that is just real damn silly imo.

As a Offlaner/Jungler and Fighting gamer, I can tell you that there are multiple reasons for why people think that way.

In general, most MMORPG combat falls below the threshold of higher level Offlane 1v1. And by 'higher level' I mean 'Silver Rank' in Pred at least because, as in most fighting games, 'top of Silver' is already 'top 10% of players' and at least 'top 30% of consistent players'.

Dune is a perfect example of how most MMORPG combat is weaksauce (whether you consider it one or not), but people imagine that solo play in an MMORPG will be strategic/better. Plus, one thing you do 'get' is that in an MMO, if you can beat up enough other people and get on a leaderboard, some other people might conclude you're skilled (this illusion doesn't seem to work as well these days).

So first you gotta imagine a bunch of people who think they are good at combat games because they can beat most of the people they know (totally accurate), and can call anyone who beats them constantly tryhards/sweats (debatable, but likely at least in comparison). You've met a person like this, you know who I mean.

Then give those people a game where they can blame gear or class balance when they lose, and yet tell their opponents that they got outskilled and need to git gud, when they win. I'm sure you've met those people too.

Then give them the prospect of a new MMO where their vast depths of unrecognized talent will surely finally propel them to greatness (basically Silver Rank).

The difference between an Arena and a Lawless zone is simply that an Arena almost always results in matchmaking-style behaviour or dodging bad matchups, whereas a Lawless Zone is more like queueing for matches in another game type, but with even less matching of skill.

Statistically, 10% or so of the people who want a new open world MMORPG will turn out to dominate at that game, really enjoy that feeling, and praise the game (until they lose consistently). You know the drill. But for those people, a new game is a chance to relive that opportunity. And I can't fault them for that because we all play games because we like some feeling the game gives, they just happen to often seek an experience that isn't related to the game itself, but in this case requires the game to do something specific to offer that experience.

Ludullu wrote: »

It gives off even less strategic gameplay, when the people asking for lawless zones say they don't care about the loot or pve behind their kills, but also say that they're not interested in arenas. I can at least see soooome strategy in going "yeah, this dude has been farming this spot for a while, so if I kill him I might get something juicy and also delete some of his other marketable loot". But kills for the sake of kills, while denying that arenas can provide that is just real damn silly imo.

Listen you said well our experiences differ the thing is ive by far more experience at pvp than you, and i can tell you i personally dealt with a lot of gankers and a lot of them did also arenas (gw2 pvp mode), and yet they liked to come to wvw and play there as well; you complained about rogues well ive dealt with an entire ganker guild of them, perma stealth thieves enjoyers ( yes perma stealth rotation was a thing in gw2) so you can imagine the fun it was to fight a bunch of ghosts, which to be honest i did kinda had some fun, but my point is pretty much all of them did arenas, actually the best gankers/roamers around they also all did arenas, and yet all of them liked wvw as well why cuz in wvw anything could happen, there were far more players and conflicts happening, i can also tell you in few occasions i had gankers from opposite servers (wvw was a weekly servers match) playing along to ambush me...; so arenas are a restrictive matchmaking system, and there is who wants freestyle pvp. And you made it more than clear to me that you aint a pvper because you simply cant grasp this (the more you talked about the matter the more i realized how oblivious/clueless you are in this department, very much obvious to me)

Azherae wrote: »

The difference between an Arena and a Lawless zone is simply that an Arena almost always results in matchmaking-style behaviour or dodging bad matchups, whereas a Lawless Zone is more like queueing for matches in another game type, but with even less matching of skill.

Sort of the thing is lawless zones are even better because no queue and no restrictions!

I'll write this as a response to both of you, cause you both are still hung up on the instanced arenas. I'm talking about open world ones.

Here's an example from L2 at 1:15:40

https://youtu.be/OGiySvibMWY?t=4540

Except I want that shit to be bigger and better, because that's what Ashes should be, in relation to L2. No matchmaking, no queues, no waiting, no rules, no fucking nothing. It's a literal pvp zone but w/o penalties, w/o mobs or their rewards and w/o pvp rewards either.

It's a PURE PVP EXPERIENCE. I spent collective weeks of time in these arenas, not only training with my guildies to make them better at pvp (because on average I was better than them in pvp) and fight a ton of other players there too, cause people would often just hang out around these arenas for the exact purpose OF PURE FUCKING PVP AND NOT GANKING.

I want this, but at the scale of the supposed tropical islands in the current Alpha. You know who DOESN'T WANT THAT? The people asking for lawless zones with mobs that drop best loot. Because these are not pvpers - they're just gankers.

And yes, gankers, as a type of player, are obviously a range of preferences and likes, but as I keep saying, I want this game to have danger in literally all places. I want that danger to range from "pretty much none" for the lowbie players on an old realm to "the highest possible" for someone involved in a guild and node war trying to farm the best open world boss in the game.

I've been a ganker in PK guilds. I've played on servers with lawless zones where pvp never stopped. My main guild's name for half a decade has been WarToAll, where literally the first thing we do on the server is declare war ON EVERY SINGLE GUILD IN THE GAME. I've been top one in the ranked arena on several servers. I've PKed lowbies on PK alts too.

All of this was pretty much a constant experience for 12 years. But yes, Kallysha, I definitely don't know what pvp is and definitely never experienced it.

Or alternatively, as you yourself keep saying, pvpers are not a single body with a single mind and can have differing opinions on stuff. And my opinion is that gankers are the lowest of the lows, preying on weak people. And gankers who cry about losing a ffa genocide system in a game that was never meant to have them - are even lower of that lowest.

If that doesn't apply to you and you only look for the strongest target possible - awesome, you're better than absolute majority of people asking for lawless zones. But you're the exception, just as I'm an exception from majority of players playing these games, because I want PvX players instead of people from either side.

So a huge room that people can have entirely unregulated Free-for-Alls in?

I don't really see how that 'matches up' with the Lawless Zone experience.

I'm mostly saying that I understand the mindset of wanting them, I just don't agree with the implementation that they would take on, in Ashes, my preferences match yours.

But I can totally see why Nebula Island is a desirable content type in Throne and Liberty even without the 'higher chance of good drops and weird stuff'.

FYI the reason I 'know' this is actually that TL has taken a strange approach to this. Nebula Island has a PvE section, and players sort themselves mostly by preference/ability. It already has that desired 'Permanent Lawless Zone', and the thing they had the issue with was 'the fact that they didn't want specific players staying there permanently', not 'the existence of the zone'.

There is a specific gameplay style challenge that is emergent from Nebula Island runs, that doesn't match even an Open World arena unless that arena is so unregulated that it will have another outcome that I wouldn't have faith in (in the MOBA era).