Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Yes because the only explanation is a person must be lying. No one can ever forget things or be mistaken.
The reason I put Arena and instanced PvP separate is because they are separate. By instanced PvP I mean WoW battlegrounds and I keep forgetting that this game has Arenas since it's so insanely dumb due to how the balancing works. Which will make the Arenas pointless.
And they would be right because gear enhancement is not gear progression. Gear progression is getting new pieces of gear not enhancing gear. You could have either gear progression or character progression through PvP.
Character progression would be something like a talent tree, which allowed you to customize your character in a way which you like. I would say in a PvP focused game a talent tree that augments your character the way you want would be the better way to go because it divorces any PvP stats from gear and would allow you to gear the way you want.
Class vs Sub-class is pretty strait forward, think of the difference between a Rogue and a Fighter, they are similar but go about things very differently. In theory you could do 25 separate distinct and unique classes which had very little overlap and a unique playstyle. Past that your going to be in dire straits of trying to make things feel unique. That is assuming you have a full plate of abilities, not being limited to 20 abilities.
EverQuest is a good example of this. The Wizard, Enchanter, Necromancer, and Magician are all cloth wearing intelligence based caster classes. But they all play very differently. Even though the description sounds like they are all basically the same on paper.
Except its your gap closer which means your going to use it when you need to close a gap, unless you think adding half a second wait time so you can dodge an ability, which you will almost never do because being on top of the target will be more important then trying to dodge one ability.
What do you mean by Targeting changes and combo changes. As for DoTs if your character is capable of kiting then there will be no change since you will probably already be kiting, and if your character cant kite then you will stand there and fight ultimately not changing the way you fight.
Changing a damage to a Heal will have the same affect as above, your overarching playstyle will not change, if the Mage suddenly got a heal would people stand there and face tank things or would they kite things like they do now and use the heal if they need it? If the Warrior got a dedicated heal would they suddenly start kiting things or would they stick with their rotation they have and use the heal if needed?
Adding a resource would probably be the best way to create an actual unique class type experience.
No it isn't, you just want it to be "waaaaay higher" so your saying anything you can to maintain the view that you hold of this game.
As for the classes discussion I'm not a dev and probably underestimate the process to impliment and balance things. I think it is underestimating game designer's that 64 distinct classes can't be made. I do hope Intrepid does right by it but we are at a wait and see for a lot of things right now.
As far as I know XP debt is turned off during PvP events.
It's a conceptual limit not a programming limit. I have no doubt that with sufficient time the team could make 64 distinct classes. The problem occurs when you have things like every class can wear all armor, every class can use every weapon, every class can...When you allow every class to do things it removes uniqueness from the class. If they implemented restrictions on classes like armor weapons and things of that sort you could have 64 classes maybe. Again a conceptual limit.
Could not agree more. I personally think Ashes could be very casually friendly even with the pillars this game wants to have, as long as Steven is willing to compromise on a few key design decisions.
I mean, there are a lot of different things they could add that are based only on the L1-25 skills we've seen so far. Tank Secondaries could have increased Threat, Damage mitigation, Trips/Knockbacks, Health Regen, etc. Bard Secondaries could have Melodies, Mana sustain, Healing, CC, etc. Ranger Secondaries could add additional ranged attacks, Roots/Snares, Armaments, Movement benefits, Camoflage, etc.
There's a lot that can be done here.
I'm not exactly wanting to defend Ashes, Intrepid or Steven right now, but I will step in when factually incorrect comments are made.
The above is factually incorrect.
In terms of "think about ways they can change an ability" in relation to augments, Stevens own comment on this is thus; Augments can affect a multitude of things and can (in some cases) create entirely new skills.
Now, if you want to make the argument that they aren't going to follow through with this, then have at it. Just be sure and make it clear that your argument is that they will not do what they have said they have done, not that they can't do what another poster has correctly said Intrepid have stated the plan to be.
However, the real issue with augments as they stand right now is that Intrepid have given us a while load of conflicting information. They have said that all skills will have augments, they have said that all active skills will have augments, and they have said that a select subset of active skills will have augments. They have said skills can only have one augment, but they have also talked about an entire catagory of augments that are designed to be used as secondary augments to skills. They have said they are designing augments to be able to be used on many skills, expect they are also designing them for specific skills.
Essentially, none of us have any idea at all what will happen with augments. Anyone that says they know is a liar.
What we do know though, is what is possible, and @lamina5432 was correct in their post in that regard - we have indeed been told augments will be highly varied.
We are also able to talk about what we think will happen with augments, in an opinion based discussion. With that in mind, Ludullu is correct when he says that the game has been becoming more and more simplified lately, so it is reasonable to assume the same will happen with augments, even if we have been told differently.
How would any of those things change the core gameplay of how another class plays the game?
Also, increased threat would be a waste of time since Tanks are the only class that have the mitigation tools to be a tank.
I think I'm seeing the problem.
@Ludullu @daveywavey and @Noaani You guys are assuming that they are going to code whole new abilities into the game. Where as I think they are going to simply reskin abilities to give them a different "feel".
Now I will assume that you guys are correct. In which case the game would have close to 8960 unique abilities, with completely separate code. In which case they could have 64 classes at launch each with 140 abilities that are unique. which is fucking more then enough, on top of that I get to pick the class I want at the start of the game rather then leveling for 3 weeks in a class I may not be all that interested in Just so I can play the class I actually want to play.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments
Take me for example a Shaman and a Cleric are two very different classes. But for me to play a Shaman I need to Level a Cleric 25 levels, and then I can START to change my abilities so that I actually play the class I want to play.
As a point of reference WoW had about 400 abilities on launch.
Sorry if i think that makes zero sense on an eyewatering amount of levels.
What's wrong with having over 9000 different abilities in an MMORPG? Not really sure how it's strange?
Also they can (and probably should) use Augments to create tradeoffs between two forms of a skill that should both be part of the same class fantasy but shouldn't be allowed on the same character at the same time.
There is nothing wrong with having that many abilities.
There is something wrong with having those abilities so spread out that rather then having unique classes you have sub classes that kind of feel like shit.
Ah so 'don't do it badly'. Got it.
People used to get really hung up on the '64' thing and it always confused me, but I can always agree with 'don't do it badly'.
Anyway to stay 'roughly' within the topic space of the thread...
As things continue in the other games I play, people seem more and more inclined to accept such combinations as different 'somethings'. Idk if 'classes' is right (and I'm sure it would just extend any arguments people ended up having), but 64 is still pretty believable as long as they 'don't do it badly'.
Exactly. The problem isn't even the number. Its the lack of identity each class has. Each class has access to every weapon and all armor. The races have no effect on the classes.
But that's the point. The Augments can give extra tools to be able to do that. Will a Bard/Tank be as effective as a Tank/Tank? Almost certainly not, but they'll manage.
I'm not saying that this is the approach that Intrepid will use, cos none of us here know that. All I'm saying is not to be so dismissive or closed-minded, cos there are ways it can work.
Yep! And, by then you'll have a good idea of how each augment will affect the skills you've been using. So you'll be able to make the best choice with your knowledge and experience!
Again how will that change how the class plays?
No I would have no idea how they will affect the skill because I will not have used them at all. Also, the whole point is that having me level half way through the leveling process so I can play the class I want is quite possibly the dumbest implementation of a class system I have ever seen.
The reason why you do that early on is because it allows you to customize the character the way you want. WoW had talent points start at level 10. I believe rift (which had a system close to this game.) did it at level 5. SWToR at level 10. Games either don't do it, or they do it early on. I have never seen a game do it half way through the leveling process. Because its a fucking terrible way of doing it.
Your first 20 lvls were one super basic class. 20-40 was a sliiight concentration in direction with a few new abiltiies. And then 40+ was the proper full class with new abilities and shit.
So, once again, Steven is just copying L2. As he's always done, yet people keep being surprised by this
Here's a tree for human classes. At character creation you pick fighter or mystic. The top row icons are the lvl20 profession change. Then lvl40 row and then lvl76 where you just get some super strong stuff for your class.
At game's release you only had the lvl40 row and considering the game's lvling speed, that lvl40 would be weeks into your gameplay (months for casuals) and the 76 row didn't even exist yet.
I do think the one thing AOC needs is the base classes to be bit more varried if they are to last up to level 25. Which is already planned and we've even seen a newer cleric skill tree spoiled.
It really all comes down to implimentation though. The 64 class choice is something that has sold a lot of people on ashes so if it doesn't sell that bard/wizard and bard/summoner feel different Back to the post title we eill be raining review bombs.
Ok sure but that's the part that is most changeable, easily.
I know that TL has lowered the level it offers Augments at, at least once since release. It's not the same since TL Augments are focused on 'rationing' power and Class Identity comes in the choices of weapon-pairs, but if nothing else it demonstrates how relatively easy it is to do (and it stores a lot of Augments in specific individual weapons, so it would probably get flipped in implementation in Ashes or something, with the weapons that Augment things being moreso 'empowerments' than the number of 'transformative' Augments TL puts into theirs).
That sort of tuning is a thing they can do once they have an idea of the general skill level of the audience that is interested in the game and their finalized leveling curve, so 'when they let people start Augmenting' is more of a separate concern/complaint than 'will Augments make classes feel different'.
To be clear I'm not defending them atm in any way, right now my opinion on their approach to Augments is 'y'all have either no idea what you are doing or are going to deliver this frighteningly later than expected'. But that's the entire theme of this Steam Early Access thing, so anyone who is willing to respond genuinely to the game on Steam is already accepting that for tons of stuff.
In that game, you have equipment that has slots, and you place gems in these slots. The gems have either active spells, or have alterations to active spells that are connected.
With this setup, you can take a single fireball spell and you can make it pierce so that it goes through the first enemy it hits, or you can make it fork, or you can make it cast 3 instead of 1, or you can make it have an additional effect, or you can make it so that instead of an active ability, using this ability instead plants a totem down that casts this spell at your enemies - or you can do any combination of these.
Changes like this do make a character play different. If my fireball is set up to cast 3 instead of 1, and then fork, I will play differently to if I cast 3 and then have them pierce, which is again different to how I would play if I was setting down a totem.
When you make a dozen or more small changes to abilities like this, a characher does indeed play differently enough that it should be considered a different class.
If a game like PoE can be made where these changes to abilities are done literally on the fly, and where players can combine multiple support gems on to one active spell in what ever combination they like, then Ashes should be able to pre-code what is in comparison a fairly small number of abilities.
Now, there is an open question as to "will they?", but the question of whether they can or not is not even worth asking as the answer is very obviously "yes, they can".
EQ2 at launch had you pick your archetype at level 1, then your subclass at level 10, and your final class at level 20 - the game had 50 levels at the time.
So, not quite half way, but close.
Lol.
Not quite ofc, Neverwinter, TERA (sorta), BDO, etc, don't give you your 'Secondary' or 'defining option' until endgame.
The reason why everyone I know complains about how late Ashes is letting us start Augmenting is specific to Ashes. It's perfectly fine in L2, EQ, FF, etc.
Ashes, however, chose high modularity, long leveling and very strict Primary Archetypes (so far), so it ends up sounding like we will just be waiting around for playstyles people have considered basic options for decades.
LOL, ok dude. You're either trolling, or you're intentionally trying to be moronic. Either way, I'm out.
AAAIIIIIIN'T THAT THE TRUTH !!!!!
AIN'T THAT also at least partially the Reason why we are all here ?!?!? >;-)
FXXXING Worst of Warcraft and that disgusting Addiction-Zombi-Monopoly it has over too many Players. The only Reason that pile of Disappointment hasn't go down in flames already for all the crap which Commiefornia-South has pulled since Battle for Azerite,
is that it had the franchise of " WARCRAFT " (3, to be precisely) backing it up !
And as a Thanks, they even tried to SHIT on the Character Arthas Menethil - > who is the sole Core Reason and Character of why the Story of WoW exists in the first place.
Damn it.
I love the World of Azeroth and the Story which had led all the way to Worst of Warcraft during Warcraft III and the Frozen Throne Expansion.
But WoW ? WoW has officially ended with me with the End of " Legion " and the Defeat of the Burning Legion. Everything which came afterwards is just an Insult to Warcraft.
You're not just speaking my Language, Dcmegacab.
You're stealing the words RIGHT FROM MY TONGUE. Makes me kinda regret that i can like your Comment only one time.
Oh the People want to whine ?
The People want to bitch and complain ?
The People want to throw immature, silly HATRED at Ashes of Creation ?
Fine. LET THEM.
I don't care. Let them vent and rant to their Hearts content. I have more Reasons to stay loyal to Ashes and to wish Sir Steven and Intrepid everything good than just hoping for a nice Game.
I am hoping for a Game which will be a Game-CHANGER !! I am sick and tired and oh-so-fed up with that disgusting "Monopoly" which WoW had despite having become an unworthy, partially "wokified" pile of Disappointment since Batte for Azerite.
If People want and wish to STAY with that porridge of badly written Story bordering on total slop, fine.
The best Additions to WoW in the last Years were :
- The second way of flying, (Dragon/Sky-riding, whatever)
- Housing which is supposed to arrive in about a Week from here on.
You can feel that the Story is no longer decided by People who "love" the World of Azeroth or which respect the Playerbase.
It is in the Hands of People who are so fxxxing stupid to "HATE" Western Gamers, western Men - and who don't respect the Lore and the Characters.
And it shows. But i shall quickly cut it off here.
Otherwise this Comment will easily get double as long than it is already.
YES !!!!!
ONE HUNDRED "THOUSAND" PERCENT YES !!!!!
Damn. Normally this would feel UNREAL what you just wrote. But this emphasises only the more how goddamn unreal this WHOLE Situation is.
I just want to escape from there. I want to escape from Azeroth where i can kinda "feel and sense" the Hostility around me, whenever i am forced to witness and experience the "Storyline".
It was so bad since Shadowlands. It was so disgusting. And it REFUSES to get any better since they ruined Sylvanas Windrunner and turned her into a NUCLEAR KAREN back then which went off into everyone's faces only because of what happened to her when she was turned into an Undead.
New Cosmetics were all fine and dandy since BfA.
New Mounts ? Cool.
New Armor-Sets ? Cool.
New Titles which can sometimes be really cool ? Also neat.
But the Story is just over - and the "overpowered Girlboss(lol)-Antagonists" are simply not doing it for me. It can't replace actually cool Threats like menacing Demon-Legions and their overpowering, monstrous Masters,
or insane Cults like the Twilight Hammer Cult and their COSMIC HORRORS for proxi-Masters which want to devour all and everything and which are dangerous even to look at.
What is the only "impressive thing" they managed with Xal'atath ?
The only impressive thing is - > that they haven't already killed her off - or otherwise stopped her in one of the most stupid ways imaginable - or "redeemed" her in an also beyond-bad way - similar like they did it to Sylvanas.
I can't wait for something else. ANYTHING else. An MMO in a Fantasy-World which seems to be decent to good. And has a few Strengths that WoW doesn't have.
I am excited for the Multi-Server-Grid-Technology which shall allow us to engage with each other in way higher Numbers than Fourty People against Fourty People like on some Battlegrounds.
I am excited for City Sieges with Siege Weapons. Siege Summons.
I am excited for possibly huge Naval Battles on the Seas.
I am excited for the Underworld of Verra and how the different Seasons of Verra will influence how easily we can go through it with Caravans or if we find our Paths blocked.
I am excited for the MONSTER-COIN EVENTS -> where We the Players can become a huge, "PvE-like Raid" to trouble our fellow Players with.
I am excited for Apartments, static Houses - and Freeholds.
And i just love that " The Ancients ",
and the darker/more evil Gods known as " The Others ",
are not a toxic Girlboss which feels like we are being trolled by her constantly and led around the Nose by her like it was the Case with us with Xal'atath all the while in War Within.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
Classes won't add new abilties, so imo getting all of our abilities by lvl25 would be the best way to keep the game engaging until you get to augments. And then augments will bring in new life to the gameplay.
My views are always way too generalistic to understand the difference between a mage class that does burst and a mage class that does dots. You just press buttons until your enemy dies - that's it. You'll still need to dodge their abilties, move around, be careful about your mana, etc.
And if we compare a DD mage and a CC mage - that's kinda exactly what I'd expect augments to achieve. But then the question becomes, do we want slight tastes of other specialties in each archetype or do we want all of them separated.
As in, if, say, Tank is THE CC archetype. Do we expect no other arch to have a CC on them? And then if not (whicih I believe majority would say), then shouldn't the current skill point system let the player decide to be more of a CC archetype through proper investment?
So, if someone comes to Ashes wanting to be a CC mage and Mage/Tank is the supposed pinnacle of that, there should still be a few CCs in the core skillset of a mage that this player could move towards, to have their gameplay fantasy realize slighly sooner.
To me that seems like the most logical way of designing this kind of class system. Hell, I'd even reward that high investment with stronger augment effects, though obviously this would create even more ability variation for balancing, which is its own problem.
I'll assume you didn't read past the title or you'd know my point is the game is releasing to EA too early, and it's not ready, releasing EA after all features and game loops were complete (BETA) would be a better ticket to success. This either a cash grab, or tester population bump, and a complete middle finger to everyone who paid a hundred dollars or more for Beta access years ago.
It's possible I underestimate players tolerance for game testing, but the current sentiment of the testing population is fatigue and frustration. And these are people who were early adopters paying hundreds of dollars for the exact reasons you stated.
For individuals, like you and I who'll ignore reviews and still try games we want to play the reviews aren't really relevant. But there have been plenty of games I've bought because it had good reviews, as well as plenty of them I've avoided because bad reviews. Big picture wise the reviews are going matter, underestimating that is more risky than underestimating player tolerance.
Even assuming people will come back to the game once it's more complete is risky. Although I agree there's a massive in void in the mmorpg genre right now, the game will still be competing for peoples attention amongst a growing list of available forms of entertainment.
Reviews for a game in EA are a type of canary in the coal mine. Good reviews? The canary is alive and healthy. Bad reviews? Canary is dead from poisonous gases and it's time to get out.
Releasing in EA now, with missing features, incomplete loops, imbalances that stunt or prevent progress is just a bad idea. They're mostly players wanting to play a game, and it's not ready to be played. This'll just sour more players than those it pleases.
Could I be wrong? Yep. I hope I am. Will people come back to play after the release even if they hated EA, maybe...
It's a bad look, the big FU to the BETA purchasers, the reselling of testing access over and over. Design issues with pvp, balance, corruption, performance, exploits, rmt, and so on.Throw bad steam reviews on top... well it just has a lot of bad variables working against it.
I'm not complaining, I just saying we may want to inflate the tires on the plane before we try taking off...
@lamina5432 Yes some games had that but not always. And again its a bad way to go about doing things because its deceptive to the players that want to play a class that isn't actually available.
@Azherae I agree with everything you said, except the skill level of the audience thing. They should make the game fun and challenging and let the players learn how to succeed within the game.
@Noaani I have over 700 hours on PoE. and over 100 on PoE 2. Yes adding a totem would very much change the playstyle of a character. But since there is literally no sign of a totem in the game I wouldn't hold my breath. The pierce and triple shot would not. Pierce would have you repositioning at the start of a fight but that is about it.
@Ludullu No WoW simply took the hard shift that was early and later and instead blended them over the course of 50 levels where your character got better at the thing you wanted to do. Which by the way is a better way of doing it for a game that doesn't want people to rush through the leveling process.
@Azherae Exactly hell 26 years ago I could play a Shaman Class at level 1 but now I need to get to max level to be able to experience that game play.
@Dcmegacab Your an idiot. Bad reviews will cause people to stay away from the game. which means the game doesn't grow. which mean the servers go offline. So you should care about the reviews on the game.
@daveywavey What a surprise. when I ask for people to actually prove their assertion they declare I must be stupid.
@Ludullu you can't have all the abilities pre max level if you do that then combat gets boring and stale quickly.
And contrary to popular belief, I wouldn’t be so sure the game will get bombed with negative reviews on Steam.
First, the $50 price tag will filter out most people who’ve never heard of the project, and it will also make it easier for current players to convince their friends to join. And while $50 isn’t cheap, compared to Aion 2’s two subscriptions that cost $27 for 28 days, here you’re essentially getting access for a year or even two before the actual release.
Second, this is genuinely a unique project. It’s currently the only game that isn’t trying to be “comfortable and accessible” for every schoolkid. It has its own backbone and sticks to it — and people respect that.
Third, the game is not as bad as many claim. Sure, it’s very raw, and there’s still a long way to go until release, but after buying it a year ago for $100, I haven’t regretted it for a moment. It’s interesting to watch the world evolve, to see the optimization improve (even if slowly), and honestly — I want to give Intrepid the benefit of the doubt simply because they’re not bending to trends and are actually building what they envisioned, even if at a slow pace.
So I’d expect positive or mixed reviews on Steam. I really don’t think it will be overwhelmingly negative — this isn’t some hype project attracting hordes of people who have no idea what they’re getting into.