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I Disagree With The Intrepid Team's Position on Equipment Inspection!
ArchivedUser
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In minute 23:21s, Blood Prophet Asks the Intrepid team " Will the character screen be inspectible by others?" Here, BloodProphet is talking about the ability to inspect other people's equipment via some kind of option.
Jeffrey says "It probably will be something we give player the option to opt to", which indicates this might be something in the game. Jeffrey goes on to indicate that they would prefer to use visual queues to know who your opponent is rather than just looking at their gear, which is a reasonable thought. Using visual queues would probably make trying to know who your opponent is much more dynamic.
Steven= Bold words
Jeffrey= Italic words
Steven follows, saying "There is a general Sentiment that comes along with being able to see another person's gear score/equipment list, and that attitude is an elitist one. You're not welcome in this raid-"It can cause unwelcome behavior-" Exactly! The concept behind AoC is that sense of community, that massive feeling, and we want people to interact with each other because there is going to be a lot of events in the world that are going to require interaction. And if we allow for tools that can kinda move away from that, it seems we are under-cutting the whole philosophy behind the community presence."
What i am taking away from this is that the intrepid team would prefer to not have such an option because it undermines what they're aiming to achieve with ashes, which is a strong sense of community. They don't want an elitist few determining what goes and what doesn't, and while this is a good design philosophy, i have to honestly disagree with this option leading to an elitist behavior. Having the ability to view people's equipment is probably one of the most useful tools a guild leader/raid leader can have access to. It allows leaders to determine who needs improvement and allocate resources towards improving that player. It can also be a helpful tool to determine who is fit enough to join a raid group, and be of use clearing the instance. As you know, raid bosses don't care if a party is fit enough or not, they will slaughter the unfit, and die to the fit.
Steven gives an example as to how being able to view people's equipment can lead to an elitist behavior by pointing to raid leaders telling people "You're not welcome in this raid", and while this might be an unwanted behavior, i have to say, the majority of times a raid leader tells a player they aren't welcome in a said raid, it is because that player will be a hindrance to the team. It is useful to have a tool to check if a certain player is good enough to contribute to finishing a raid.
Having the ability to view people's equipment will only lead to an elitist behavior if a certain player uses it that way. If this is the case, then that player is the inherent problem. It is that player who is toxic, and is using this inspection tool to be an elitist. Guild leaders and Raid leaders are the people who benefit from this most, and if a player tells someone they aren't welcome somewhere because they don't have the right gear, then that is probably for the better. Keep in mind, if that person is serious about getting better in the game, then they can play other parts of the game to get stronger. Strong enough to join whatever that activity might have been. So, it isn't the option that is inherently elitist friendly, it's more about how it is used. I would love it if such an option exists in the game. Anyways, what do you guys think?
Jeffrey says "It probably will be something we give player the option to opt to", which indicates this might be something in the game. Jeffrey goes on to indicate that they would prefer to use visual queues to know who your opponent is rather than just looking at their gear, which is a reasonable thought. Using visual queues would probably make trying to know who your opponent is much more dynamic.
Steven= Bold words
Jeffrey= Italic words
Steven follows, saying "There is a general Sentiment that comes along with being able to see another person's gear score/equipment list, and that attitude is an elitist one. You're not welcome in this raid-"It can cause unwelcome behavior-" Exactly! The concept behind AoC is that sense of community, that massive feeling, and we want people to interact with each other because there is going to be a lot of events in the world that are going to require interaction. And if we allow for tools that can kinda move away from that, it seems we are under-cutting the whole philosophy behind the community presence."
What i am taking away from this is that the intrepid team would prefer to not have such an option because it undermines what they're aiming to achieve with ashes, which is a strong sense of community. They don't want an elitist few determining what goes and what doesn't, and while this is a good design philosophy, i have to honestly disagree with this option leading to an elitist behavior. Having the ability to view people's equipment is probably one of the most useful tools a guild leader/raid leader can have access to. It allows leaders to determine who needs improvement and allocate resources towards improving that player. It can also be a helpful tool to determine who is fit enough to join a raid group, and be of use clearing the instance. As you know, raid bosses don't care if a party is fit enough or not, they will slaughter the unfit, and die to the fit.
Steven gives an example as to how being able to view people's equipment can lead to an elitist behavior by pointing to raid leaders telling people "You're not welcome in this raid", and while this might be an unwanted behavior, i have to say, the majority of times a raid leader tells a player they aren't welcome in a said raid, it is because that player will be a hindrance to the team. It is useful to have a tool to check if a certain player is good enough to contribute to finishing a raid.
Having the ability to view people's equipment will only lead to an elitist behavior if a certain player uses it that way. If this is the case, then that player is the inherent problem. It is that player who is toxic, and is using this inspection tool to be an elitist. Guild leaders and Raid leaders are the people who benefit from this most, and if a player tells someone they aren't welcome somewhere because they don't have the right gear, then that is probably for the better. Keep in mind, if that person is serious about getting better in the game, then they can play other parts of the game to get stronger. Strong enough to join whatever that activity might have been. So, it isn't the option that is inherently elitist friendly, it's more about how it is used. I would love it if such an option exists in the game. Anyways, what do you guys think?
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Comments
If it is not an option then work for the right to see someones gear.
lol
I would even go so far as say that even having an option is a bad idea because someone can demand to see your gear or you don't get into a guild or raid, etc.
If you can't at least tell a level of competence by the gear they are visually wearing then you don't deserve to demand anything from anyone in the first place.
You want to know what I'm wearing? ASK ME.
WoW had the gear score, you might not be able to see the gear but that magic number told all how good your stuff was. No one wants to carry a player in a pickup group, it always happens either by skill, gear, or attendance someone drags down a group. Putting in a gear score removes at least the one component the game itself can detect.
I think leaving it up to the player on how deep an inspection can go is the right choice. I do believe that there should be a base line that is always visible though, that is if gear itself will at some point make that much of a difference. I am pretty sure it will. Gear score is safe if a bit impersonal. It might not be needed in this game, again, alpha and beta testing should be invaluable in this regard.
Yes, speaking from experience in other AAA MMOs this type of invasion of privacy in game leads to elitist behavior.
However, I wouldn't be opposed to a toggle option.
Removing inspect option does not help in any way here.
People will just use DPS meters, and then kick people who under perform after the first wipe.
Elitist guilds will always find the way to filter out people. Removing gear inspection ability will not help here.
Although I DO AGREE WITH REMOVING THE GEAR INSPECTION OPTION -- but for completely different reason.
In open world PvP, people will not just inspect approaching player and then decide if they fight back or not based solely on that.
They will have to decide on other, situational factors, which is how it should be.
I support "no gear inspection".
In the end the elitist will find a way to get or force players to give them what they want if you want to play with them.
I guess my opinion is that the tools should be available to share this information-but the right to share should be the players. If a group requires the information in order to group that is their right, and it is your right not to share and find a group that fits your style.
Maddstone
While possibly having a mechanic to opt in/opt out of allowing others to view one's gear, seems like a logical compromise, it's just a breath away from toxic behavior. Like other's have already mentioned, people who look to fill slots's in dungeons/raids, will just put out the stipulation of "gear check", before allowing admittance.
Honestly speaking, is there any way of completely eradicating this type of elitism? No. But, that sure as hell doesn't mean that we as a community should make it easier, by handing out tools that encourage such.
@Gothix
I don't believe Ashes is going to have/allow meters, in the game. The devs spoke of "metrics", which I believe will apply to leaderboards, and display the contribution of the team overall, in certain aspects, as opposed to singular statistics. But, nothing has been confirmed, either way.
Obviously, the MMO genre has largely embraced gear scores. However, getting an accurate gear score is only possible if the game is stat driven and progression is strictly linear. If a game does not have linear power progression, then a gear score does not represent the capability of the gear, and it becomes a separate stat. (In old school D&D it would be charisma, as it determines your ability to find groups)
Think of non-MMO genre games, If you play MOBA your team mates don't tell you to play a specific character, they just need you to fill a role. In team FPS like battlefield, it's the same thing, guilds usually do not want to inspect your load out, they just want you to get a job done. If IS is attempting to accomplish this, I'm all for it.
We know very little about gameplay at this point. I think it has been said that combat will be a mix of action and tab targeting. But we do know that weapons will be usable by all archetypes, and that weapons determine both a basic attack (keystroke), and an ultimate (as of the PAX build). The way classes are built, there are a lot of options for the developers to change aspects of play by providing augments as well.
It's really hard to have this discussion at this point, and it will probably be easier after PAX. But as of now, It is a definite possibility that high level gear will not fit into a linear power progression paradigm. If instead of numbers, high level gear offers optionality, then a gear score would probably be a strongly negative thing. That is to say, under those circumstances, people utilizing a gear score to make choices would be using bad information.
My point is actually the other way... that having ANY inspection tool including the ability to opt in undermines the desire to not have a heavy gear focus. By having an inspection tool but not just turning it on for people in your guild or alliance, it's just a pain. And why cause that pain?
I think the way you achieve I.S. goal of not being exclusionary is to not focus on item levels or tiers. Sure you have stats on the gear, and people can analyze the gear that you choose. Or they can look at how much intelligence, spirit, etc. you have on the whole. But don't focus on item level. Focus on stat min/maxing without necessarily gear min/maxing. I think people have gone wrong when they've focused so much on a single stat - gear level - instead of being intelligent about how to put your gear together to max stats for a crit heavy tanking build or a block heavy build, etc.
Besides being eliticist when forming a group or "cheating checking" people before you attack them in pvp.
If you want to know what skin some player has, what build or what gear to help them I bet the player will respond you if you just ask him.
...if all raids are complete-able by people of any gear level, how silly that would be?
This would mean game has extremely low competitiveness and that WILL push a lot of people away.
There SHOULD be different levels on content, complete-able on different levels of gear (and skill, but gear also). And if there IS a content that REQUIRES higher gear level, then people who form the raids need to know who they can invite, for the simple reason not to waste everybodys time.
It is a hard question, and not an easy choice.
I would personally prevent gear inspection in open world, but I don't know how I would solve the problem of raid leaders trying to form raids that can actually complete the content.
And I am totally NOT for all content be complete-able by everyone, because if this is how it would be I would certainly think twice if I would want to play such game.
I need a challenge, and I need to feel that my progress allows me to reach some content that i was not able to reach previous to my effort.
Accept | Decline
Does this solve the issue at hand in this thread? No. Is it a suggestion for Intrepid? Yes.