I agree with Intrepid 100% on this. This post has been a laugh fest for me at all the people crying cause the main factor that fuels their elitism is being threatened and they are scared. Keep it up guys, your tears have fueled my entertainment.
Since Ashes is oriented toward horizontal progression, I don't think gear is going to play as bigger role as other MMORPGs. From what Intrepid have hinted at, encounters are going to be reliant on class abilities and augments.
This remains to be seen in playtesting, but to my mind the Ashes meta will likely be strategic: "have we got X Y Z classes/augments in the group and do they know the mechanics" because using these abilities correctly is the only way to beat the encounter; rather than "do we have max level gear or max level H/DPS" as in other games.
If raid and dungeon encounters are mostly strategic rather than numerical (and I hope they are), then Ashes will be a paradigm shift from what we are used to in mainstream MMOs.
Taking it even further, by designing fights strategically so that different kinds of abilities (combat, utility, magic, physical, cc, different elements like fire and ice, healing) are valuable in different fights, it will make every class and class combo relevant at some point in the dungeon/raid. And that, to me, is very important for them to get right. By taking importance off of gear and placing it on needing different playstyles and abilities to succeed, I feel the community will be more cooperative with each other and actual stategy and planning will come back into the genre.
I agree with Intrepid 100% on this. This post has been a laugh fest for me at all the people crying cause the main factor that fuels their elitism is being threatened and they are scared. Keep it up guys, your tears have fueled my entertainment.
OK, what is intrepid's position then? I doubt you even understood what Steven said.
My thoughts on gear inspection, other than being worthless, I guess. Are as follows.
I prefer it to be locked. But, I understand in modern day mmo's it's all about gearscore, which is why I prefer a different type of progression system, character progression, rather than gear progression. Gear is fine, of course, but if the differences are minimal, min/max people, will still have a small edge. Besides, I think character progression is a lot more meaningful. Remember the old forum RP days? Forgot the names, but you paid a sub, to RP in a forum, and your character progressed really slowly. Keep using the sword, and after a few months, you'd be a lot better at it, but hardly ever maxed out. Anytime you gained a level, it felt like an absolute milestone.
A progression system like that is preferable to me, and if a system like that were implemented, then gearscore would not factor in so much, and I doubt people would care about it being hidden.
I'm also a huge proponent of bringing people you enjoy playing with, people you forge bonds with, rather than a nameless gearscore x class.
Another perspective, costuming systems. If we have to judge gear quality by visual appearance, that means there won't be any sort of costume/transmog/wardrobe system, let alone the robust one that people are often looking for in games. It really is an either/or situation. Either people can assume whatever appearance they want but can be inspected to see what their gear actually is, or what they are actually wearing for stats dictates their appearance.
Well god damn. What happened to good enough ? We really have moved to... 'sorry, I only hang with the very best !'
With the ability to inspect, you can target whatever level you want. Without the ability to inspect, you can't even target good enough, let alone the very best.
I also think the argument made by @Gothix "And if people in good gear are found lacking performance after the wipes, they can be replaced then just as easy," applies even if the Raid leader didn't examine gear. I mean if you don't perform well you will likely be replaced even if nobody ever checked your privilege, I mean gear.
Without an inspection option, and without a parser, how will they know who needs to be replaced? Something has got to give.
Without an inspection option, and without a parser, how will they know who needs to be replaced? Something has got to give.
The same way they do now, ask...
I'm neutral on this and feel like we should trust in the devs as we don't know how this game will play. It shouldn't be a hard feature to implement so if we feel we need it they could add it in quickly.
I also think the argument made by @Gothix "And if people in good gear are found lacking performance after the wipes, they can be replaced then just as easy," applies even if the Raid leader didn't examine gear. I mean if you don't perform well you will likely be replaced even if nobody ever checked your privilege, I mean gear.
Without an inspection option, and without a parser, how will they know who needs to be replaced? Something has got to give.
Situational awareness. Basically paying attention to how the fight is going outside of their own little bubble, if they can't keep track of everything going on should they really be the ones leading the fight?
@mycroft said "Either people can assume whatever appearance they want but can be inspected to see what their gear actually is, or what they are actually wearing for stats dictates their appearance."
I am still not seeing why this is an either/or. As for my response to Gothix, he claims people with good gear that don't perform can be replaced. So however they would determine that, with people in good gear, I assume they can without knowing someones gear. Otherwise you would never replace someone with good gear even if they were under performing, there would apparently be no way of knowing.
If the gear is good how would they know to replace under performers? The same way they would without knowing if the gear was good I would guess.
Situational awareness. Basically paying attention to how the fight is going outside of their own little bubble, if they can't keep track of everything going on should they really be the ones leading the fight?
You will count how many fireballs each mage has let fly in the air, how many arrows from each archer, how many sword swings each warrior has done by visually watching them? xD 40 people...
Even if you could do that you still can't tell if someones arrow did 10 damage or 1500 damage. No situational awareness will help you there.
Situational awareness can only help you see if tank will get one shotted or not... but there is no way to see how much DPSers do damage.
And if tanks HP goes down slowly, there is not way to tell if it's due to a lacking tanks gear, or weak healers healing.
Only parser can tell you that.
And "asking people"... good luck with that... maybe 1 of 40 people will tell you the truth... lol.
So please give up on the "smart little bubble sayings".. they are so smart...
1. I would disable gear inspection 2. I would enable voluntary linking of your gear score somehow (in a way that it can't be faked)
This makes open world PvP unexpected and fun. It also allows people to form raid groups to their own preferences.
And again, whoever isn't happy with someone elses preferences, can move his butt and work a bit on forming his own raid, where he can set rules and requirements how he wishes.
I always hated gear score, and the attitudes that came with it in WoW. Whenever I was tooling around for a dungeon run, I refused to answer what my GS was, despite being a raid geared holy pal. Just something about boiling a player down to a number always rubbed me the wrong way.
@Gothix take a chill pill bud... I am not your enemy. Nor did I quote you. The fact my message came after yours was because thats where it ends up as a generic reply to a thread.
I understand perfectly the concept of optimal gear, and optimal skill deployed at the right time in the right place for the right reasons. The concept of efficiency is not lost on me. My stance is that it comes with a cost that is destructive to the community as a whole. There is also a big difference between optional self improvement to your own timeline and compulsory imposed improvement to someone elses.
I know you want this advance information to satisfy the requirements of a dungeon equation in the most efficient manner, to ensure a predictable outcome for a predictable encounter. AND that is the whole point of my argument.
This whole predictability leads to the search for optimal gear, skills, playstyles, builds to answer that known encounter in the most efficient way. It leads to min/maxing to find the optimal builds and elitism to enforce it. That is why themeparks become boring and people demand new content. Because eventually they know the scripted event backward and can do it with their eyes shut. Such scripted events then become obsolete leading to ever less content and an insatiable appetite for more applying ever more pressure on the DEVs. A demand for a narrow band of content that can never be satisfied
Remove the predictability and there is no script. No script means people must rely on their personal skill 'as a player' and filling the holes in each others builds to be prepared for the unexpected 'as a group'. You dont need to prepare for the unexpected and be built for it when there is no unexpected element. Nor can every group have the required make up to be optimal for every situation when the content is unknown so the only requirement id diversity and skill with it.
I hope that you can contrast the difference between build requirements for unexpected content and expected content. Unexpected content demands diverse builds and adaptability. Where players must have immense skill specific to deploy their unique build. One leads to variety and one does not. Predictable content enforces cookie cutter FoTM builds. Unpredictable content enforces build diversity and harmonic skill collaboration.
As long as I have the option to allow someone to view my gear, I don't see it as an issue. The focus here seems to be on "elitists" judging others, not allowing them to raid, whatever. I'm not sure I have a problem with that, actually. If I might be the cause of a raid's success or failure because of my poor gear, perhaps I shouldn't be raiding. True, having good gear doesn't mean that someone can play well. But, certainly, having bad gear can prevent someone from playing well regardless of ability.
However, there's another reason for allowing someone to view my gear. It can be beneficial. In EQII, especially early on, more than once someone who understood how to play my character class better than me, or simply understood gear, was able to give me advice on what gear was best for me. And later on, as I became more experienced, I was able to do the same for others.
Being able to view gear is not necessarily a bad thing. I probably don't want to be playing with elitist snobs anyway.
Lets face it. You're going to have an elitist attitude in any MMO. I've played enough of them to know that with absolute certainty. Being denied a spot in a raid or party due to insufficient gear, poorly itemized gear, or whatever the case may be related to gear, I'd argue is due diligence on part of the raid leader or group leader. It's their job to ensure the raid or party is put in the best possible position in order to succeed. I don't think it's fair, but I understand exactly where they are coming from.
Think of it as a business. Are you going to hire a person with relatively no experience or certifications over someone with 10+ years of experience and applicable certifications? Probably not. There's always going to be outliers, however.
I've played with plenty of stellar players who wouldn't meet a gear requirement or would have no hope in passing the eye-test so to speak. Take some time to see where their game knowledge is at by asking questions. The good players will know the ins and outs of their class, period. I'd even wager they know the ins and outs of every class. It's obviously not a perfect solution by any means, but I'd rather have 8 good players with bad gear versus 8 average players with the absolute very best gear.
@Opiee Assuming there is a best gear and not tuned gear that is build specific.
Agreed. From what has been said, PvE encounters will likely not be generic DPS races, but will focus on abilities. Open world dungeons and raids will mean high level players are fighting alongside low level players. Success might depend on a level 3 rogue knowing how to disarm a trap or a level 5 bard knowing how to dispel a debuff.
I don't think inspecting is something that creates elitism - elitist players will be that way whether there's a gear inspection feature or not.
Case in point: "link achievement!" "LFM Y exp only pls"
Seen that in other MMOs without gear inspection.
It's unfortunate, but I think a lot of players are looking at a scapegoat, not wanting to blame another person (probably because that creates conflict, which people instinctively avoid) but rather a system for the elitism.
Personally, I like it when MMO atleast gives me an option to allow other people to inspect my character, for vanity reasons if nothing else since I tend to wind up with top tier gear in the games I play.
It seems like there is a group of players that play to win only, because winning is a good example of having fun. While others play to have fun, and do not necessarily consider losing a huge setback, time/xp/otherwise. There will likely not be a compromise between those most passionate members of each group.
I will conceded that in a group of 7 players that all really want to destroy a Raid, a player that just wants to go fight and have fun might not be the best number 8. On the other side a group of 7 really chilled RP heavy players would benefit from an 8 that's sole purpose is to win, but that number 8 will likely not enjoy that groups dynamic.
Maybe the ideal for some people is to gather 8 like minded people together like a giant Siamese twin and join twin groups to become one for a raid No need to advertise, because your joined together and start as one from day one.
CopyCat Country Club show your credentials at the door.-------------------------------> No street people or working class dwarfs allowed!
Given that AoC is both a faction-less and open-world PvP game I don't think I want anyone seeing what I am (or am not) packing. No inspections, no leader boards.
If guilds want to make it a requirement of their members to privately reveal such information (for raids and such), so be it. But for the rest of us I think we should be able to keep that information to ourselves.
there to me there two types of mmorpg players one how have the idea and the ones how follow i believe this helps thew followers to mush to see equipment , as in the end everyone will be wearing the same things depending on meta, and i think this speeds these up and i would not like that as if you have the idea you can saviour the time of what you have created before some youtuber copies it
@OneWingedAngel made an interesting point about spending the time and energy to develop build for your character only to have it copied and publicized by someone. As for elitism, I use it to reverse the process and exclude groups and players from who I want to play with. I know the success of the party needs to be considered but I have a short amount of patience for waiting in a group for the player for the perfect gear. And if the group leader is spending too long to find the group then I am gone.
A real life example of this is when I purchase large ticket items, I tend to do my research dressed comfortably and casually. I sometimes look like I should not be researching the specific items. The sale and the commission goes to the stores and salespeople that treat me well. They do not have to go out of their way but a polite enquiry and answering quick questions will get the sale. I expect if inspection is required I may try the same tactics.
@mycroft said "Either people can assume whatever appearance they want but can be inspected to see what their gear actually is, or what they are actually wearing for stats dictates their appearance."
I am still not seeing why this is an either/or.
If there is no inspection and you are expected to know the gear someone is wearing by its appearance, then there cannot be an option to override that appearance. So without an inspection option there cannot be a costume/transmog/wardrobe system.
On the other hand, knowing what gear another player has is important, to make sure he is appropriately equipped for his level and the difficulty of the content being attempted. If there is a costume/transmog/wardrobe system then there needs to be a way to see past the outside appearance to the actual underlying stats, which is what the typical inspection window offers.
@OP you missed the most valuable response that is the number ONE reason they don't want item/build inspection.....this is an open world pve AND pvp game, it's not just pve. they don't want people inspecting X player that is really good and seems unbeatable by Y player to make specific counter builds (while the upper tier players will be able to figure this stuff out anyways) it will return the mmo genre to brain over brawn....button smashing and grind time will yield "you have no power here..." results when battling at the top of the mountain....
I for one welcome this, as i am getting older my reaction time is slowing, but my knowledge and experience is growing. with a mechanically inclined mind, high capacity of critical thought and 19 yrs of creating meta in mmos i can't wait to see all these class combos..../drool #excel but don't ignore in game functionality and common battle scenarios that don't necessarily factor in mathematically (which is common mistake with meta builders) they can get ya in the ballpark though. I just hope the game and class/ability building is as advanced as i hope it's going to be.
please bring back the brain...i know it's a seldom used tool in today's society, but i swear it's capable of amazing things....
Comments
By taking importance off of gear and placing it on needing different playstyles and abilities to succeed, I feel the community will be more cooperative with each other and actual stategy and planning will come back into the genre.
@Gothix
Wise words
I prefer it to be locked. But, I understand in modern day mmo's it's all about gearscore, which is why I prefer a different type of progression system, character progression, rather than gear progression. Gear is fine, of course, but if the differences are minimal, min/max people, will still have a small edge. Besides, I think character progression is a lot more meaningful. Remember the old forum RP days? Forgot the names, but you paid a sub, to RP in a forum, and your character progressed really slowly. Keep using the sword, and after a few months, you'd be a lot better at it, but hardly ever maxed out. Anytime you gained a level, it felt like an absolute milestone.
A progression system like that is preferable to me, and if a system like that were implemented, then gearscore would not factor in so much, and I doubt people would care about it being hidden.
I'm also a huge proponent of bringing people you enjoy playing with, people you forge bonds with, rather than a nameless gearscore x class.
With the ability to inspect, you can target whatever level you want. Without the ability to inspect, you can't even target good enough, let alone the very best.
Without an inspection option, and without a parser, how will they know who needs to be replaced? Something has got to give.
I'm neutral on this and feel like we should trust in the devs as we don't know how this game will play. It shouldn't be a hard feature to implement so if we feel we need it they could add it in quickly.
Situational awareness. Basically paying attention to how the fight is going outside of their own little bubble, if they can't keep track of everything going on should they really be the ones leading the fight?
I am still not seeing why this is an either/or. As for my response to Gothix, he claims people with good gear that don't perform can be replaced. So however they would determine that, with people in good gear, I assume they can without knowing someones gear. Otherwise you would never replace someone with good gear even if they were under performing, there would apparently be no way of knowing.
If the gear is good how would they know to replace under performers? The same way they would without knowing if the gear was good I would guess.
Even if you could do that you still can't tell if someones arrow did 10 damage or 1500 damage. No situational awareness will help you there.
Situational awareness can only help you see if tank will get one shotted or not... but there is no way to see how much DPSers do damage.
And if tanks HP goes down slowly, there is not way to tell if it's due to a lacking tanks gear, or weak healers healing.
Only parser can tell you that.
And "asking people"... good luck with that... maybe 1 of 40 people will tell you the truth... lol.
So please give up on the "smart little bubble sayings".. they are so smart...
1. I would disable gear inspection
2. I would enable voluntary linking of your gear score somehow (in a way that it can't be faked)
This makes open world PvP unexpected and fun.
It also allows people to form raid groups to their own preferences.
And again, whoever isn't happy with someone elses preferences, can move his butt and work a bit on forming his own raid, where he can set rules and requirements how he wishes.
I understand perfectly the concept of optimal gear, and optimal skill deployed at the right time in the right place for the right reasons. The concept of efficiency is not lost on me. My stance is that it comes with a cost that is destructive to the community as a whole. There is also a big difference between optional self improvement to your own timeline and compulsory imposed improvement to someone elses.
I know you want this advance information to satisfy the requirements of a dungeon equation in the most efficient manner, to ensure a predictable outcome for a predictable encounter. AND that is the whole point of my argument.
This whole predictability leads to the search for optimal gear, skills, playstyles, builds to answer that known encounter in the most efficient way. It leads to min/maxing to find the optimal builds and elitism to enforce it. That is why themeparks become boring and people demand new content. Because eventually they know the scripted event backward and can do it with their eyes shut. Such scripted events then become obsolete leading to ever less content and an insatiable appetite for more applying ever more pressure on the DEVs. A demand for a narrow band of content that can never be satisfied
Remove the predictability and there is no script. No script means people must rely on their personal skill 'as a player' and filling the holes in each others builds to be prepared for the unexpected 'as a group'. You dont need to prepare for the unexpected and be built for it when there is no unexpected element. Nor can every group have the required make up to be optimal for every situation when the content is unknown so the only requirement id diversity and skill with it.
I hope that you can contrast the difference between build requirements for unexpected content and expected content. Unexpected content demands diverse builds and adaptability. Where players must have immense skill specific to deploy their unique build. One leads to variety and one does not. Predictable content enforces cookie cutter FoTM builds. Unpredictable content enforces build diversity and harmonic skill collaboration.
As long as I have the option to allow someone to view my gear, I don't see it as an issue. The focus here seems to be on "elitists" judging others, not allowing them to raid, whatever. I'm not sure I have a problem with that, actually. If I might be the cause of a raid's success or failure because of my poor gear, perhaps I shouldn't be raiding. True, having good gear doesn't mean that someone can play well. But, certainly, having bad gear can prevent someone from playing well regardless of ability.
However, there's another reason for allowing someone to view my gear. It can be beneficial. In EQII, especially early on, more than once someone who understood how to play my character class better than me, or simply understood gear, was able to give me advice on what gear was best for me. And later on, as I became more experienced, I was able to do the same for others.
Being able to view gear is not necessarily a bad thing. I probably don't want to be playing with elitist snobs anyway.
Think of it as a business. Are you going to hire a person with relatively no experience or certifications over someone with 10+ years of experience and applicable certifications? Probably not. There's always going to be outliers, however.
I've played with plenty of stellar players who wouldn't meet a gear requirement or would have no hope in passing the eye-test so to speak. Take some time to see where their game knowledge is at by asking questions. The good players will know the ins and outs of their class, period. I'd even wager they know the ins and outs of every class. It's obviously not a perfect solution by any means, but I'd rather have 8 good players with bad gear versus 8 average players with the absolute very best gear.
Assuming there is a best gear and not tuned gear that is build specific.
Case in point: "link achievement!" "LFM Y exp only pls"
Seen that in other MMOs without gear inspection.
It's unfortunate, but I think a lot of players are looking at a scapegoat, not wanting to blame another person (probably because that creates conflict, which people instinctively avoid) but rather a system for the elitism.
Personally, I like it when MMO atleast gives me an option to allow other people to inspect my character, for vanity reasons if nothing else since I tend to wind up with top tier gear in the games I play.
@Rune_Relic
CopyCat Country Club show your credentials at the door.------------------------------->
No street people or working class dwarfs allowed!
A real life example of this is when I purchase large ticket items, I tend to do my research dressed comfortably and casually. I sometimes look like I should not be researching the specific items. The sale and the commission goes to the stores and salespeople that treat me well. They do not have to go out of their way but a polite enquiry and answering quick questions will get the sale. I expect if inspection is required I may try the same tactics.
On the other hand, knowing what gear another player has is important, to make sure he is appropriately equipped for his level and the difficulty of the content being attempted. If there is a costume/transmog/wardrobe system then there needs to be a way to see past the outside appearance to the actual underlying stats, which is what the typical inspection window offers.
Sometimes, sure. But there are gaps that skill can't overcome.
I for one welcome this, as i am getting older my reaction time is slowing, but my knowledge and experience is growing. with a mechanically inclined mind, high capacity of critical thought and 19 yrs of creating meta in mmos i can't wait to see all these class combos..../drool #excel but don't ignore in game functionality and common battle scenarios that don't necessarily factor in mathematically (which is common mistake with meta builders) they can get ya in the ballpark though. I just hope the game and class/ability building is as advanced as i hope it's going to be.
please bring back the brain...i know it's a seldom used tool in today's society, but i swear it's capable of amazing things....