The point is that the PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOSE WITH WHOM THEY WANT TO PLAY, and to chose how they want to play.
Who is anyone to say to someone else that he shouldn't invite only geared players?
Who is anyone to say to someone else that he shouldn't invite players based on their personality (or anything else)?
This main point here is everyone should be able to chose, and no one has the right to tell him that his play choice is "wrong". It's HIS TIME, he can do with it as he wishes.
Taking away (optional) gear inspection means TAKING AWAY PLAYERS CHOICE!
Again, if group of geared players want to play together who are you to say to them they shouldn't? That they should be forced to take you instead? Do you do that in real life too? Come to random group of people that hang out and tell them they MUST accept you in their circle?
Who do you think you are??
You are free to work on forming your own group. You have no right to demand the diminishing of rights of anyone else.
Therefore voluntary gear inspection (linking) MUST be an option.
@mycroft, your reply was "If there is no inspection and you are expected to know the gear someone is wearing by its appearance, then there cannot be an option to override that appearance. So without an inspection option there cannot be a costume/transmog/wardrobe system."
I am not understanding the thought that you would be "expected to know the gear someone is wearing by its appearance." That goes back to me not following the either or logic. I am not saying it is wrong, detrimental, or negative. I am saying I don't understand why people believe it is "either you show us what you have or we have to be able to identify it by looks."
If you don't trust someone to tell you the truth why invite them anyways? Trust builds trust, and many posters in this forum on both sides have agreed that those who do not perform well (with or without good gear) will be dropped. What about the risk/reward aspect? You risk taking in a random player, you may be rewarded, you may not.
Again, not saying there is a right/wrong here, just my understanding of arguments and point of views.
@Gothix, I don't think anyone proposed that anybody here HAS to play with others. Your statement "The point is that the PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOSE WITH WHOM THEY WANT TO PLAY, and to chose how they want to play," is true. If some people are only willing to play with others based on the stuff they have, their opinions, there guild membership, then that is their right, I support that 100%. Why does Ashes have to provide a means to share your equipment information? As others have stated there are ways around this, even if they are an inconvenience. Ashes is going to inconvenience a lot of players, those that hate PvP, those that hate the concept of a bounty system, and so on.
How does not sharing this information take away choice? You can still choose to say no. Just because you can't see a players gear doesn't mean you have to take them because they asked to go. Again, trust builds trust.
Do raids that are filled with players that are all maxed out on equipment never fail? What do you do then, ditch the under performers? I feel as though the end results are the same with or without gear inspection.
You are right, if somebody doesn't like the rules determined by others they don't have to play with them. They can always choose to go make their own rules elsewhere.
@Gothix, no one is saying that you can not choose to only group with geared players. No one is demanding that you play with them. What we are saying is that we feel that our gear is private. Whether it is for PvP reasons as expressed earlier or just to avoid hassles, gear is private. No one has the right to see my gear. If they ask I may tell them I may ignore them. You are saying that you have the right to the details of my character so that your choice is made easier. My characters details are not necessary for you to make that choice, it just puts the onus on you to know who you choose to play with. GEAR MUST BE PRIVATE. Yelling does not make it so. IS will choose what they will and we will decide how we deal with it. You want to impose on my privacy so that your play style is easier. That makes a clear choice and it is not definitive which side is right. Is it a huge imposition on me? Probably not. Does the ease by which geared players find the geared players only groups matter to me? Probably not. There are no must haves in this argument. It is shades of grey and the shades are not that different.
Gear is private or it is not. There is not in between. I am one of the people that is willing to share my build when I choose to if it has value to someone for their characters. But some parts that I am testing or just enjoy because it is a bit different. I am one of the people that just do not understand not being truthful about my gear if asked. I may say, "None of your business" but not being truthful about it is just silly. It will come out eventually.
Why should Ashes not provide a means to share your equipment information?
Because an amount of Intrepid Studios customers would not desire it and would find it an imposition on their privacy.
And when your customers do not desire something, you find a way to prevent it.
Why should I have to always say I do not want to share that information for whatever reason to make it easier for others to limit their groups. Knowledge of my character details is not your right or privilege. And creating the expectation that it is available is the same infringement as making it mandatory.
Because an amount of Intrepid Studios customers would desire it.
And when your paying customers desire something, you work on a way to deliver this to them. As simple as that.
Also if this gear sharing is optional, it does not affect that other part of customers that want to keep their gear private. They still can.
You heard him guys, give the masses what they want. Guess we'll be getting dungeon finder and raid finder soon too eh? Terrible argument and the more you post the more I support Steven in not allowing gear inspection.
You have clearly forgotten that linear theme park progression is not the focus of Ashes of Creation. No matter how much you want to go beat 'loot ogre raid' so you can go do 'loot dragon raid' while no one else can because they didn't grind 'loot ogre raid' first that will simply not work for this game. Do you think Intrepid is going to allow for the possibility that a
server unlocked 'loot dragon raid' and 'loot sandal
raid' all of which require grinding a prior raid tier to complete and which can't be unlocked now that those nodes have locked out adjacent nodes? The simple fact that 'loot ogre raid' and 'loot rabbit raid' may not even be unlocked on some servers depending on node advancement makes it impossible for that kind of linear progression to be allowed exist.
That's not even getting into the skill customization and the design decision to make hybrid builds viable. Gear inspection (especially a visible gear score) is antithetical to those goals; unless you think that someone is going to memorize the 100s of viable builds and what gear min/maxing is suitable for them. Not having gear inspection will not stop the elitist cancer, but it will hinder it from metastasizing into the meta-game.
Wow out of town for the weekend and 4 pages in. Did not expect this thread to show up or be this hotly contested. The point was so many people are pigeon holed. The question wasn't JUST about gear but your build out as well. How ever you specced your toon. We see way to much FOTM builds. If you don't have these skills and specced this way you can't go is a complete failure of an idea. I always play an off spec and am usually at or near the top of the meters. Skill trumps gear most of the time. If someone has good gear but keeps standing in the fire they are hurting the whole team. That said I agree with the option to show your gear. None of us like wasting time trying to kill a boss and can't because of something like gear holding us back. \ I like pugging sometimes as people will surprise you with their ingenuity. Using gear or a skill in a way you may not have thought of. Sure there are sub par builds and players but give people a chance and then help them. If you really want to know if someone is a good fit run smaller content with them and see how they play. Several of my RL friends that I raid with play the same way. Go out talk to people and make friends. Don't be an asshat in smaller group content and in chat and these connections will prosper into raid time. Just my thoughts.
Theres in an inherent failing in basing design of this mmo on previous successes such as wow. And that's the issue that wow is already wow, so people who really just want another wow will inevitably quit for the same reasons they left wow in the first place. Or just go back to wow after a few weeks.
I really prefer the idea of a game society based on trust and understanding than one based on gear scores and add-ons.
This is game may not be solo / pug friendly the same way a lot of mmos have been, but that's actually a good thing. Anything that encourages a strong level of trust and cooperation in the community seems like a good thing to me. The community of aoc will be legen- wait for it....
-dary.
Cuz Were not remaking wow.
We're doing something different Something new and we're doing it together. And if we pull that off I just know it'll be something so much better!
Exactly. The player can choose if their gear is private or public. It's their choice, not Intrepids or anyone else's. I like having that choice
If the option to show is available then gear is not private. The ability to keep gear private is based upon the inability to simply show it. With that ability to toggle gear then I am imposing on someones right to be able to see my gear by not flipping a toggle rather than granting someone the privilege of knowing my gear.
I was aggravated by the inference that this is a right of other players to see gear. I was firmly committed to the toggle until recently by the argument that players have the right to know another players gear or that impedes their play style. It does not impede the play style, it just requires gathering the knowledge of who they are willing to play with in other ways.
This seems like a problem for PUG's and large guilds. Which will likely leave me less affected by this. Also, runs against the sense of community that Ashes seems to be based. I intend to try to get to know some information about members of my guild, alliance and node. Will I have any certainty that the knowledge I have will lead to successful gaming experiences. No, but it will make it easier to know why it went well or not. I guess it is similar to the viewing gear just not provided to me by someone else flipping a toggle.
There is an argument that having gear viewing will make the community more inclusive. I have read the posts in this thread and other threads from those arguing for gear viewing and they have been well thought out and presented. Given that large guilds, alliances and nodes may have hundreds or thousands of players in them having gear viewable makes it easier for players unknown to one another to group for certain content. I do understand the utility of being able to see a players gear and attempting to form a group for specific content can be a daunting task. Whether gear is as good an indicator as some expect is up for debate. Viewing gear simply allows players that are unknown to the group leader a first introduction for that specific content.
I believe both sides of this debate have allowed emotion to enter the argument. One side has allowed the disappointment of having to meet the metabuild of the moment in order be deemed worthy of grouping for content, while the other has allowed the disappointment of not completing the content due to not knowing if the party is capable to cloud the others arguments. I am not sure what the consequences of either choice will be. I did state before that this is a grey argument with benefits and detriments whatever choice IS makes.
P.S. I hate it when one of my arguments from a previous post forces me to think through the logic and see the value of the opposing view.
TL:DR The choice IS makes on this will have benefits and detriments regardless of the choice made and the result will be a shade of grey.
I can't really say I agree or disagree as I have (I believe) NEVER used 'Inspect' in any mmorpg games I played. Maybe people used it on me but I wouldn't know. When I wanted to know someone's gear/ stats I'd just ask them to link it to me in the chat. And that would open a conversation and immediately break into a social/community building moment. If I had to choose, I'd go with no inspect button but maybe a 'close up' one!? Like you can't see stats and gear name but you get a closer look of the characters cosmetics? The 'Look' of him/her.
But on the other hand, I wouldn't really care if it was in as well. Just not something I'd use very much.
You know how MMO's have a party invite or a trade invite? Well, here's a suggestion:
Player A has requested to inspect your equipment.
Accept | Decline
Does this solve the issue at hand in this thread? No. Is it a suggestion for Intrepid? Yes.
To follow up on this, I think I'd make it more of a 'skill' or something. Like 'You attempt to inspect <said player>' Then you get a succeed or fail rate. On a fail, the player himself might get a pop up '<X player> tried to inspect you sneakily but failed horribly.
I agree with SageVonAwesome, the argument "because fans want it" leads us down the wrong road. I would also tend to believe that a toggle to show or not show would more than likely end with players always being more concerned with gear/build than player.
If asked what my gear is, and I say "not your concern" they have the right not to accept me. I can't be mad about that.
If I lie, and they find out, they have the right to ditch me. I would feel like I also gave them motive to PK me.
If I tell the truth, and they still don't take me because they don't believe me, I lucked out in avoiding that group.
If I tell the truth, and they accept me, then I might have found a group I can raid with more often than not.
There will be liars, they should get what they deserve. There will be elitist, they should get what they deserve.
Risk and reward fellow heroes, it's how the game is designed!
I see two things with their reasoning for not wanting this. One is a hole in their logic and the other is a problem in regards to a feature that's become rather bit of a standard for MMOs.
First, the hole in logic. Saying that being able to inspect gear would cause elitism is understandable. I don't agree that this is a relevant contributing factor to the elitist mentality, though. Especially when you consider what else they said. They want people to (paraphrasing here) be able to tell a person's gear by visuals. That means it won't be necessary to inspect them. Just look at what they're wearing and, if it's not the item the elitist demands be worn, the person will be kicked or denied or trash talked as elitists are wont to do. This might hide accessories (rings, necklace, etc) assuming they are not visually represented (i hope they are visually shown, not enough MMOs show these items). So not having an inspect option/feature won't curb the elitism to any measurable degree.
Now, the problem. Fashionistas and outfit chasers will understand this one. What if the look of the higher level gear doesn't appeal to my taste? Will I be able to change the appearance of it? If so, won't that interfere with the "be recognizable on sight" idea? And since it would, does that mean I won't be able to change what my gear looks like? And what if I see someone with a really cool looking sword or bow or shoulders or cape/cloak? They may not want to share where they got it or what it's called. If I can inspect them, I can simply see what it's called and figure out how to get it myself. But ultimately, I'm more worried that this means they may not want to have an appearance feature for gear. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to change the look of some gear and didn't have the option to and hated the look of my character because of that. Lowers my excitement to play the character. Yes, I know it's silly, go away.
I think the hole you pointed out might not be there. Perhaps they don't want to encourage/enable elitism. True, if it exist anyways then they can not prevent it, but that doesn't mean they should encourage it. Personally I don't have a problem with this mentality, it's like the kids in school that would only hang with kids that wore the same clothes. I don't need them to be validated.
Since PvE content is supposedly going to be a good source for fine tuned weapons and armor, I agree that visually inspecting avatars won't be as effective. I think there would be a hole in their logic if they wanted players to be able to determine other players gear. However, they are avoiding this best they can do to open world PvP as they stated.
Also, just because an avatar is wearing something cool and decided not to share that with you (stats/location/etc.), I don't think that should grant you the ability to inspect them. Uniqueness is hard in these games, some people like to hold onto that as long as possible. If the items are not unique, you will likely be able to find one player willing to share that info.
I think the hole you pointed out might not be there. Perhaps they don't want to encourage/enable elitism. True, if it exist anyways then they can not prevent it, but that doesn't mean they should encourage it. Personally I don't have a problem with this mentality, it's like the kids in school that would only hang with kids that wore the same clothes. I don't need them to be validated.
Since PvE content is supposedly going to be a good source for fine tuned weapons and armor, I agree that visually inspecting avatars won't be as effective. I think there would be a hole in their logic if they wanted players to be able to determine other players gear. However, they are avoiding this best they can do to open world PvP as they stated.
Also, just because an avatar is wearing something cool and decided not to share that with you (stats/location/etc.), I don't think that should grant you the ability to inspect them. Uniqueness is hard in these games, some people like to hold onto that as long as possible. If the items are not unique, you will likely be able to find one player willing to share that info.
Elitism will exist with or without being able to inspect someone. There are plenty of MMOs that you can't inspect other players and elitism is alive and strong in those games, too. Hence why I pointed out that any contribution to elitism would be irrelevant. Perhaps I should have said trivial instead of irrelevant, but the point remains the same.
I am not understanding the thought that you would be "expected to know the gear someone is wearing by its appearance." That goes back to me not following the either or logic.
I'm going from Intrepid's answer in the video for that, where they say they want you to use visual cues to determine who your opponent is instead of just inspecting to see the gear. In order for that to work, you can't hide your gear with a costume.
Marenor said: If the option to show is available then gear is not private. The ability to keep gear private is based upon the inability to simply show it.
Only if you are a ***** and don't have the ***** to tell someone "I don't want to show you my gear".
But mate, that is your own problem, not Intrepids, and certainly not mine, or anyone else's that wish to have the option to show their gear. I will have no problem what so ever to tell anyone "My gear is private". And on other hand I would have the choice to show my gear to whom I want to, for whatever reason.
From what I see here, you want to be carried and then you want to excuse yourself on inability to show your own gear.
If you were willing to play with people based on their personality and other values, then "option" to show the gear (or not) would not hurt you at all.
Option A: Ashes have OPTIONAL gear inspection and everyone plays as they want, and group with who they want. There will be some elitists (as always) and they will inspect peoples gear and group with whom they want. Other people will form raids based on other values.
Option B: Ashes does not have even optional gear inspection. Elitists now have to play with people first, and then after when they see someone is not on their "level" (since there is not gear inspection), to avoid grouping with him ever again they will simply have to PUT HIM ON IGNORE/BLOCK LIST (since there is no other way to avoid inviting him in the future). So now people are getting outright blocked and ignored, and BESIDES only not playing dungeons with elitists (which they claim they wouldn't want anyway) now they can't trade with them also, or anything else at all.
Option C: Mandatory gear inspection. You wouldn't like that wouldn't you? But this is an option as well! Think about it.
OPTIONAL gear inspection is the way to go. Now leechers would love not to have even that, of course.
I wonder how leechers would feel if people started voting for MANDATORY inspection here.
See:
1. MANDATORY
2. OPTIONAL
3. NOT AVAILABLE AT ALL
OPTIONAL is a compromise and gives a choice to everyone. Whoever doesn't want to give the choice to everyone doesn't really deserve to has his opinion considered at all.
Yes you, the leecher wannabe. I'm pointing at you.
I can not imagine everyone here that believes their gear is private (because of customization stats per crafting) is a leech. I am not, nor do I think other players need to know what I am wearing. @Gothix, I would have agreed with your last post if you had not thrown this blanket statement on people that do not feel the way you do.
Edit: I may have misread, you are calling out leeches specifically, not calling others leeches. Sorry, my goal is to be civil. This being the case, I do agree with your previous post.
@mycroft As far as IS, they have also said that Armor/Weapon stats will be determined by the craftsman (craftsperson). So unless they are going to script a ton of different armors and weapons for every level of craftsman and how each "adjust the dials" I do not see how visual inspection will be reliable. However, I do believe you. They did indicate that they wanted visual inspection. Perhaps this question should go to the Q&A.
"Will you be able to determine a players gear level/quality by visual inspection?"
@mycroft As far as IS, they have also said that Armor/Weapon stats will be determined by the craftsman (craftsperson). So unless they are going to script a ton of different armors and weapons for every level of craftsman and how each "adjust the dials" I do not see how visual inspection will be reliable. However, I do believe you. They did indicate that they wanted visual inspection. Perhaps this question should go to the Q&A.
"Will you be able to determine a players gear level/quality by visual inspection?"
Gear will have a set range of stats that it can roll upon dropping or being crafted. That's a fundamental across the board for MMOs. That means that when you see two Rogues wearing the same helmet/chest/hands/etc, you immediately have a general idea of what their armor stats are. You've already done an initial inspection without even looking at the tooltip for the gear they're wearing. You already have a general idea of their gear level.
You answered your own question. And based on what has already been said, so have the devs. They want to make the visual representation indicative of the gear level.
I'm fine with having an option to not allow being inspected. I don't understand the mentality of not wanting people to see your gear, but I'm not an elitist nor do I like being carried. I prefer to be honest about myself and that means I don't get invited to some groups because I don't have the gear or the experience with the content that the group wants. But I will support having the option for not being inspected, strange though the concept is to me. Especially if it means we can have an appearance feature.
Marenor said: If the option to show is available then gear is not private. The ability to keep gear private is based upon the inability to simply show it.
Only if you are a ***** and don't have the ***** to tell someone "I don't want to show you my gear".
But mate, that is your own problem, not Intrepids, and certainly not mine, or anyone else's that wish to have the option to show their gear. I will have no problem what so ever to tell anyone "My gear is private". And on other hand I would have the choice to show my gear to whom I want to, for whatever reason.
From what I see here, you want to be carried and then you want to excuse yourself on inability to show your own gear.
If you were willing to play with people based on their personality and other values, then "option" to show the gear (or not) would not hurt you at all.
I have whatever it takes to tell anyone whatever I want them to know. I like your assumption that I want to be carried. That is not the case here and has never been the case. I am well aware of my capabilities and tend to underestimate them. But in the rare case where I felt I was a drag on a party in any way not only would I mention it to the group and suggest that I be replaced but I would aid them in the search to replace me. I tend to stay in guild and constantly suggest other options for groups if I believe the other option will be beneficial to the groups success. So being carried is not my goal.
I like the leachers reference in your second post. Everyone that does not want to show their armour must be a leacher. Honestly, I just do not want to manage the toggle I can only imagine how often that toggle would get left on for me. What really cemented my view point on this was the attitude that players had a right to know each others armour. Which with costumes and other graphic options is not true. I hope the character assassination attempts are through.
Honestly, I just do not want to manage the toggle I can only imagine how often that toggle would get left on for me.
It doesn't have to be a toggle at all.
It could be private by default, but then somewhere there could be a button (with confirmation pop up) that lets you link your gear sheet to someone in specific occasion when you wish to do this.
On the other hand, if you don't wish to do this, you don't have to use this button ever.
@Gothix I think we will have to agree to disagree. I understand your reasons for wanting it and you have some valid points. Hopefully you can see that in some of my posts. The word pop-up just brings bad thoughts to mind. Imagine walking through a city and having some number of people ask to see your gear or just one repeatedly ask.
I think we will just have to wait for IS to decide this for us. And honestly I hope they take all of the arguments under consideration and hopefully a solution can be arrived at that has the most rewards with the fewest detriments. I came to look at viewing gear like an elevator speech. It is a quick way for a player to gain credibility with an unknown group leader quickly. Whatever IS decides it will not be the end of the world. But I will promise this, if they decide to not make gear viewable I will try to figure out a way for group leaders to be able ascertain a players credibility for content rather than cross their fingers and hope when they are stuck for the eighth member of a party or fortieth member of a raid. If I discover a good one, I will send you a DM with it.
@Gothix I think we will have to agree to disagree. I understand your reasons for wanting it and you have some valid points. Hopefully you can see that in some of my posts. The word pop-up just brings bad thoughts to mind. Imagine walking through a city and having some number of people ask to see your gear or just one repeatedly ask.
I think we will just have to wait for IS to decide this for us. And honestly I hope they take all of the arguments under consideration and hopefully a solution can be arrived at that has the most rewards with the fewest detriments. I came to look at viewing gear like an elevator speech. It is a quick way for a player to gain credibility with an unknown group leader quickly. Whatever IS decides it will not be the end of the world. But I will promise this, if they decide to not make gear viewable I will try to figure out a way for group leaders to be able ascertain a players credibility for content rather than cross their fingers and hope when they are stuck for the eighth member of a party or fortieth member of a raid. If I discover a good one, I will send you a DM with it.
Probably because it is not worth it. The outcome of a duel would not affect IS and their decision making and if it does not make a difference I am not getting out of my chair. Laziness may be the solution to world peace.
with the option: turn on your inspect or you can't come *inspects* You can't come nub
without the option: link your gear *inspects* you can't come nub or: screen shot your stats and post it here... you can't come nub
with achievements: Link your hard mode clear to get into this normal mode learning group
Elitests won't be stopped. I would like to not see it in there. Just allow for item linking to show off items. When it comes to pvp I don't want to see it at all. People will inspect you to gauge how hard it would be to gank you.
So is the intent here to ensure someone has the latest bestest gear to do the dungeon in the fastest possible time....or simply to see if the gear is good enough to get the content done. And if gear is irrelevant and character build a much more important aspect do we instead demand to see every stat attrubute and skill allocation of every player ? Where does it stop other than a desire to see everything another player has done for their character ?
And this isnt just a PvE game where you are playing with allies? ..you are also facing enemies. Should you also know everything about your enemy before you even start the fight.
Should we take it even further and allow us to inspect the dungeon before we even enter it. So that we can see all the stats for all the mobs within the dungeon ? Shoudl we simply have a stat contest and say....ok our team stats are better than your dungeon stats so we win....give us the loot ! Not that you will actually have to experience the dungoen at all, because you can simply inpect it and get the appropriate build to beat it before entry.
Comments
Who is anyone to say to someone else that he shouldn't invite only geared players?
Who is anyone to say to someone else that he shouldn't invite players based on their personality (or anything else)?
This main point here is everyone should be able to chose, and no one has the right to tell him that his play choice is "wrong". It's HIS TIME, he can do with it as he wishes.
Taking away (optional) gear inspection means TAKING AWAY PLAYERS CHOICE!
Again, if group of geared players want to play together who are you to say to them they shouldn't? That they should be forced to take you instead? Do you do that in real life too? Come to random group of people that hang out and tell them they MUST accept you in their circle?
Who do you think you are??
You are free to work on forming your own group. You have no right to demand the diminishing of rights of anyone else.
Therefore voluntary gear inspection (linking) MUST be an option.
I am not understanding the thought that you would be "expected to know the gear someone is wearing by its appearance." That goes back to me not following the either or logic. I am not saying it is wrong, detrimental, or negative. I am saying I don't understand why people believe it is "either you show us what you have or we have to be able to identify it by looks."
If you don't trust someone to tell you the truth why invite them anyways? Trust builds trust, and many posters in this forum on both sides have agreed that those who do not perform well (with or without good gear) will be dropped. What about the risk/reward aspect? You risk taking in a random player, you may be rewarded, you may not.
Again, not saying there is a right/wrong here, just my understanding of arguments and point of views.
@Gothix, I don't think anyone proposed that anybody here HAS to play with others. Your statement "The point is that the PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOSE WITH WHOM THEY WANT TO PLAY, and to chose how they want to play," is true. If some people are only willing to play with others based on the stuff they have, their opinions, there guild membership, then that is their right, I support that 100%.
Why does Ashes have to provide a means to share your equipment information? As others have stated there are ways around this, even if they are an inconvenience. Ashes is going to inconvenience a lot of players, those that hate PvP, those that hate the concept of a bounty system, and so on.
How does not sharing this information take away choice? You can still choose to say no. Just because you can't see a players gear doesn't mean you have to take them because they asked to go. Again, trust builds trust.
Do raids that are filled with players that are all maxed out on equipment never fail?
What do you do then, ditch the under performers? I feel as though the end results are the same with or without gear inspection.
You are right, if somebody doesn't like the rules determined by others they don't have to play with them. They can always choose to go make their own rules elsewhere.
And when your paying customers desire something, you work on a way to deliver this to them. As simple as that.
Also if this gear sharing is optional, it does not affect that other part of customers that want to keep their gear private. They still can.
@Marenor Keyword here is OPTIONAL (sharing), you keep missing that.
Why should Ashes not provide a means to share your equipment information?
Because an amount of Intrepid Studios customers would not desire it and would find it an imposition on their privacy.
And when your customers do not desire something, you find a way to prevent it.
Why should I have to always say I do not want to share that information for whatever reason to make it easier for others to limit their groups. Knowledge of my character details is not your right or privilege. And creating the expectation that it is available is the same infringement as making it mandatory.
You have clearly forgotten that linear theme park progression is not the focus of Ashes of Creation. No matter how much you want to go beat 'loot ogre raid' so you can go do 'loot dragon raid' while no one else can because they didn't grind 'loot ogre raid' first that will simply not work for this game. Do you think Intrepid is going to allow for the possibility that a server unlocked 'loot dragon raid' and 'loot sandal raid' all of which require grinding a prior raid tier to complete and which can't be unlocked now that those nodes have locked out adjacent nodes? The simple fact that 'loot ogre raid' and 'loot rabbit raid' may not even be unlocked on some servers depending on node advancement makes it impossible for that kind of linear progression to be allowed exist.
That's not even getting into the skill customization and the design decision to make hybrid builds viable. Gear inspection (especially a visible gear score) is antithetical to those goals; unless you think that someone is going to memorize the 100s of viable builds and what gear min/maxing is suitable for them. Not having gear inspection will not stop the elitist cancer, but it will hinder it from metastasizing into the meta-game.
The point was so many people are pigeon holed.
The question wasn't JUST about gear but your build out as well.
How ever you specced your toon.
We see way to much FOTM builds. If you don't have these skills and specced this way you can't go is a complete failure of an idea. I always play an off spec and am usually at or near the top of the meters.
Skill trumps gear most of the time. If someone has good gear but keeps standing in the fire they are hurting the whole team.
That said I agree with the option to show your gear. None of us like wasting time trying to kill a boss and can't because of something like gear holding us back.
\
I like pugging sometimes as people will surprise you with their ingenuity. Using gear or a skill in a way you may not have thought of. Sure there are sub par builds and players but give people a chance and then help them.
If you really want to know if someone is a good fit run smaller content with them and see how they play.
Several of my RL friends that I raid with play the same way.
Go out talk to people and make friends. Don't be an asshat in smaller group content and in chat and these connections will prosper into raid time.
Just my thoughts.
Theres in an inherent failing in basing design of this mmo on previous successes such as wow. And that's the issue that wow is already wow, so people who really just want another wow will inevitably quit for the same reasons they left wow in the first place. Or just go back to wow after a few weeks.
I really prefer the idea of a game society based on trust and understanding than one based on gear scores and add-ons.
This is game may not be solo / pug friendly the same way a lot of mmos have been, but that's actually a good thing. Anything that encourages a strong level of trust and cooperation in the community seems like a good thing to me. The community of aoc will be legen- wait for it....
-dary.
Cuz Were not remaking wow.
We're doing something different
Something new and we're doing it together. And if we pull that off I just know it'll be something so much better!
If the option to show is available then gear is not private. The ability to keep gear private is based upon the inability to simply show it. With that ability to toggle gear then I am imposing on someones right to be able to see my gear by not flipping a toggle rather than granting someone the privilege of knowing my gear.
I was aggravated by the inference that this is a right of other players to see gear. I was firmly committed to the toggle until recently by the argument that players have the right to know another players gear or that impedes their play style. It does not impede the play style, it just requires gathering the knowledge of who they are willing to play with in other ways.
This seems like a problem for PUG's and large guilds. Which will likely leave me less affected by this. Also, runs against the sense of community that Ashes seems to be based. I intend to try to get to know some information about members of my guild, alliance and node. Will I have any certainty that the knowledge I have will lead to successful gaming experiences. No, but it will make it easier to know why it went well or not. I guess it is similar to the viewing gear just not provided to me by someone else flipping a toggle.
I believe both sides of this debate have allowed emotion to enter the argument. One side has allowed the disappointment of having to meet the metabuild of the moment in order be deemed worthy of grouping for content, while the other has allowed the disappointment of not completing the content due to not knowing if the party is capable to cloud the others arguments. I am not sure what the consequences of either choice will be. I did state before that this is a grey argument with benefits and detriments whatever choice IS makes.
P.S. I hate it when one of my arguments from a previous post forces me to think through the logic and see the value of the opposing view.
TL:DR The choice IS makes on this will have benefits and detriments regardless of the choice made and the result will be a shade of grey.
But on the other hand, I wouldn't really care if it was in as well. Just not something I'd use very much.
If asked what my gear is, and I say "not your concern" they have the right not to accept me. I can't be mad about that.
If I lie, and they find out, they have the right to ditch me. I would feel like I also gave them motive to PK me.
If I tell the truth, and they still don't take me because they don't believe me, I lucked out in avoiding that group.
If I tell the truth, and they accept me, then I might have found a group I can raid with more often than not.
There will be liars, they should get what they deserve.
There will be elitist, they should get what they deserve.
Risk and reward fellow heroes, it's how the game is designed!
First, the hole in logic. Saying that being able to inspect gear would cause elitism is understandable. I don't agree that this is a relevant contributing factor to the elitist mentality, though. Especially when you consider what else they said. They want people to (paraphrasing here) be able to tell a person's gear by visuals. That means it won't be necessary to inspect them. Just look at what they're wearing and, if it's not the item the elitist demands be worn, the person will be kicked or denied or trash talked as elitists are wont to do. This might hide accessories (rings, necklace, etc) assuming they are not visually represented (i hope they are visually shown, not enough MMOs show these items). So not having an inspect option/feature won't curb the elitism to any measurable degree.
Now, the problem. Fashionistas and outfit chasers will understand this one. What if the look of the higher level gear doesn't appeal to my taste? Will I be able to change the appearance of it? If so, won't that interfere with the "be recognizable on sight" idea? And since it would, does that mean I won't be able to change what my gear looks like? And what if I see someone with a really cool looking sword or bow or shoulders or cape/cloak? They may not want to share where they got it or what it's called. If I can inspect them, I can simply see what it's called and figure out how to get it myself. But ultimately, I'm more worried that this means they may not want to have an appearance feature for gear. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to change the look of some gear and didn't have the option to and hated the look of my character because of that. Lowers my excitement to play the character. Yes, I know it's silly, go away.
Since PvE content is supposedly going to be a good source for fine tuned weapons and armor, I agree that visually inspecting avatars won't be as effective. I think there would be a hole in their logic if they wanted players to be able to determine other players gear. However, they are avoiding this best they can do to open world PvP as they stated.
Also, just because an avatar is wearing something cool and decided not to share that with you (stats/location/etc.), I don't think that should grant you the ability to inspect them. Uniqueness is hard in these games, some people like to hold onto that as long as possible. If the items are not unique, you will likely be able to find one player willing to share that info.
I'm going from Intrepid's answer in the video for that, where they say they want you to use visual cues to determine who your opponent is instead of just inspecting to see the gear. In order for that to work, you can't hide your gear with a costume.
That's absurd. How is your gear private when its being visually displayed to everyone that looks at you?
But mate, that is your own problem, not Intrepids, and certainly not mine, or anyone else's that wish to have the option to show their gear. I will have no problem what so ever to tell anyone "My gear is private". And on other hand I would have the choice to show my gear to whom I want to, for whatever reason.
From what I see here, you want to be carried and then you want to excuse yourself on inability to show your own gear.
If you were willing to play with people based on their personality and other values, then "option" to show the gear (or not) would not hurt you at all.
Ashes have OPTIONAL gear inspection and everyone plays as they want, and group with who they want. There will be some elitists (as always) and they will inspect peoples gear and group with whom they want. Other people will form raids based on other values.
Option B:
Ashes does not have even optional gear inspection. Elitists now have to play with people first, and then after when they see someone is not on their "level" (since there is not gear inspection), to avoid grouping with him ever again they will simply have to PUT HIM ON IGNORE/BLOCK LIST (since there is no other way to avoid inviting him in the future).
So now people are getting outright blocked and ignored, and BESIDES only not playing dungeons with elitists (which they claim they wouldn't want anyway) now they can't trade with them also, or anything else at all.
Option C:
Mandatory gear inspection. You wouldn't like that wouldn't you? But this is an option as well! Think about it.
OPTIONAL gear inspection is the way to go. Now leechers would love not to have even that, of course.
I wonder how leechers would feel if people started voting for MANDATORY inspection here.
See:
1. MANDATORY
2. OPTIONAL
3. NOT AVAILABLE AT ALL
OPTIONAL is a compromise and gives a choice to everyone. Whoever doesn't want to give the choice to everyone doesn't really deserve to has his opinion considered at all.
Yes you, the leecher wannabe. I'm pointing at you.
Edit: I may have misread, you are calling out leeches specifically, not calling others leeches. Sorry, my goal is to be civil. This being the case, I do agree with your previous post.
@mycroft
As far as IS, they have also said that Armor/Weapon stats will be determined by the craftsman (craftsperson). So unless they are going to script a ton of different armors and weapons for every level of craftsman and how each "adjust the dials" I do not see how visual inspection will be reliable. However, I do believe you. They did indicate that they wanted visual inspection. Perhaps this question should go to the Q&A.
"Will you be able to determine a players gear level/quality by visual inspection?"
You answered your own question. And based on what has already been said, so have the devs. They want to make the visual representation indicative of the gear level.
I'm fine with having an option to not allow being inspected. I don't understand the mentality of not wanting people to see your gear, but I'm not an elitist nor do I like being carried. I prefer to be honest about myself and that means I don't get invited to some groups because I don't have the gear or the experience with the content that the group wants. But I will support having the option for not being inspected, strange though the concept is to me. Especially if it means we can have an appearance feature.
I like the leachers reference in your second post. Everyone that does not want to show their armour must be a leacher. Honestly, I just do not want to manage the toggle I can only imagine how often that toggle would get left on for me. What really cemented my view point on this was the attitude that players had a right to know each others armour. Which with costumes and other graphic options is not true. I hope the character assassination attempts are through.
It could be private by default, but then somewhere there could be a button (with confirmation pop up) that lets you link your gear sheet to someone in specific occasion when you wish to do this.
On the other hand, if you don't wish to do this, you don't have to use this button ever.
I think we will just have to wait for IS to decide this for us. And honestly I hope they take all of the arguments under consideration and hopefully a solution can be arrived at that has the most rewards with the fewest detriments. I came to look at viewing gear like an elevator speech. It is a quick way for a player to gain credibility with an unknown group leader quickly. Whatever IS decides it will not be the end of the world. But I will promise this, if they decide to not make gear viewable I will try to figure out a way for group leaders to be able ascertain a players credibility for content rather than cross their fingers and hope when they are stuck for the eighth member of a party or fortieth member of a raid. If I discover a good one, I will send you a DM with it.
with the option: turn on your inspect or you can't come *inspects* You can't come nub
without the option: link your gear *inspects* you can't come nub
or: screen shot your stats and post it here... you can't come nub
with achievements: Link your hard mode clear to get into this normal mode learning group
Elitests won't be stopped. I would like to not see it in there. Just allow for item linking to show off items. When it comes to pvp I don't want to see it at all. People will inspect you to gauge how hard it would be to gank you.
And if gear is irrelevant and character build a much more important aspect do we instead demand to see every stat attrubute and skill allocation of every player ?
Where does it stop other than a desire to see everything another player has done for their character ?
And this isnt just a PvE game where you are playing with allies? ..you are also facing enemies. Should you also know everything about your enemy before you even start the fight.
Should we take it even further and allow us to inspect the dungeon before we even enter it. So that we can see all the stats for all the mobs within the dungeon ? Shoudl we simply have a stat contest and say....ok our team stats are better than your dungeon stats so we win....give us the loot ! Not that you will actually have to experience the dungoen at all, because you can simply inpect it and get the appropriate build to beat it before entry.