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Tab target only

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Comments

  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Blackhearted wrote: »
    You should never click on abilities no matter how many there were.
    I prefer clicking on long CD abilities. It makes it unlikely that I’ll trigger them by accident. It’s like requiring two keys turned simultaneously before launching the nukes.

    Aside from that, I agree if I’m using something in combat regularly I want it easily accessible and something I can get into muscle memory.
     
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  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Blackhearted wrote: »
    Closer to ten sounds bad, where did you get that info?
    I could only find a citation in wiki for fewer than 30.

    I think its quite easy to manage 30ish abilities in tab but for action combat I think fewer will be fluid.
    You have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, §, q, e, r, t f, g, caps, mmb, (z, x) keybinds unmodded w/ basic equipment + F1-F4 depending on keyboard.
    You should never click on abilities no matter how many there were.

    The original skill bars on Alpha 0 had 12 active abilities, more than enough for in-depth combat. (Source img on the wiki)

    They’ll let you pick which 12 (or whatever they decide on), but being able to access dozens at once is overkill.
  • BlackheartedBlackhearted Member
    The quantity is subjective preference and I consider the a0 skills as placeholders and give more value to the stream.
    I personally found gw2 combat extremely dull and that is why I hope for more abilities.

    What I mostly wanted to say with my post is that they shouldnt limit the number of abilities just because some cant keybind or find the sleight of hand to use multiple keybinds with action combat.
    "You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
    You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Blackhearted wrote: »
    Closer to ten sounds bad, where did you get that info?
    I could only find a citation in wiki for fewer than 30.

    I think its quite easy to manage 30ish abilities in tab but for action combat I think fewer will be fluid.
    You have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, §, q, e, r, t f, g, caps, mmb, (z, x) keybinds unmodded w/ basic equipment + F1-F4 depending on keyboard.
    You should never click on abilities no matter how many there were.

    I always use Q, E, R, F, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, SHIFT-Q, SHIFT-E, SHIFT-R, SHIFT-F, SHIFT-1, SHIFT-2, SCHIFT-3, SCHIFT-4, SCHIFT-5, F1, F2, F3, F4 which makes for 22 skills and that was always more then enough for me xD

    I myself hope that we get around 15-20 spells that all have their own use in combat or everyday use.
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  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    Blackhearted wrote: »
    You should never click on abilities no matter how many there were.

    Most of my skills had keybinds, but sometimes I had to run forward and strafe one way in a same time so I should have another finger to push the button what are near to my busy fingers. In these case the clicking is very useful.
    Additionally in the case what Atama said the long cooldown skills.

    The clicking is also good when you are not in a risky situation, so you can type a message and hunt for weaker mobs with only mouse or fishing etc. An MMORPG is not just constant fight.

    When I was new in MMORPG, I was nearly 100% clicker. I was able to handle everything including hardcore dungeons. When I started active PvP and harder raids, I realized that I need to start using keybidings. But still about 50% clicking I was able to be one of the top DPS within the 25 man raid. I finished it about 5% clicking. Probably if I would play in progress guild, I would need that much earlier.
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Your ability choices have consequences, but you can also adapt on the fly with good reflexes and creative use of those abilities. We don’t need such niche abilities that you use them only a handful of times your whole time playing.

    That is what I said, you can't just add aiming without removing something. After that it is all about taste, so no mean to arguing about it.
  • xlangatangxxlangatangx Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2019
    Damokles wrote: »
    I always use Q, E, R, F, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, SHIFT-Q, SHIFT-E, SHIFT-R, SHIFT-F, SHIFT-1, SHIFT-2, SCHIFT-3, SCHIFT-4, SCHIFT-5, F1, F2, F3, F4 which makes for 22 skills and that was always more then enough for me xD

    GET SHIFT-E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ctK1aoWuqY
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    xlangatangx wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    I always use Q, E, R, F, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, SHIFT-Q, SHIFT-E, SHIFT-R, SHIFT-F, SHIFT-1, SHIFT-2, SCHIFT-3, SCHIFT-4, SCHIFT-5, F1, F2, F3, F4 which makes for 22 skills and that was always more then enough for me xD

    GET SHIFT-E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ctK1aoWuqY

    LoL-Button
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  • SeloSelo Member
    edited October 2019
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Action combat is better (in my opinion) because it lets skill make up for a gap in stats.

    Different type of games need different type of skill to overcome situation when you are in worse position.
    In action games it is the eye-hand coordination skill.
    In chess it is the skill how many relevant forward steps you can calculate.
    In a TBS games you can chose the position where you want to fight. You can bring units what counter better the enemy's units.
    In an MMORPG, you have tons of skill and you can have utility potions/scrolls/items/etc. The standardized PvP games are team-games so you have mates. So you need to combine your skill, you need to communicate with your teammates. Even without aiming, you can use the LOS and the environment element to overcome your weakness.
    I played in arena in WoW, we had similar gear, but in some fight I had better skills, but in some fight I did not have any chance to win, because the enemy was much better.
    I played Starcraft. It was accused that it is a clicking championship, no strategic thinking is needed. But I was very bad at clicking my APM was about 60-70 (pros are about 150-200), and I was in the 2nd best league, because I played strategically.

    I know that you do not want to remove anything what an MMORPG already has, but my experience is that in an action based MMORPG, you have much less character-skill to use once. As you have to aim, your mouse is not free to click on a rarely used skill what would be great in your current situation. You need to grow some more fingers or buy special equipment be able to map and use the same amount of skills. That is why I fear from the aiming in the MMOs. I like to have tons of skills even if I use them once a week.
    But I am open for action based combat, I just fear from it.

    Good post.
    I rather use a various amount of skills (15~25) in combat and using positioning and teamcoordination rather then the fight only beeing about "who can circlestrafe the most to confuse the other player and headshot the most"

    The younger generation are 99% FPS players and they bring in very bad influences to the mmorpg genre that has made the genre much worse and is a main reason why no game survives longer than a couple of months.
    Really the only games since EQ/DaoC/WoW that has survived for a longer time has all been using the core mechanics, and the ones that have failed has gone the FPS route.
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  • CrazySquiggleCrazySquiggle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Selo wrote: »
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Action combat is better (in my opinion) because it lets skill make up for a gap in stats.

    Different type of games need different type of skill to overcome situation when you are in worse position.
    In action games it is the eye-hand coordination skill.
    In chess it is the skill how many relevant forward steps you can calculate.
    In a TBS games you can chose the position where you want to fight. You can bring units what counter better the enemy's units.
    In an MMORPG, you have tons of skill and you can have utility potions/scrolls/items/etc. The standardized PvP games are team-games so you have mates. So you need to combine your skill, you need to communicate with your teammates. Even without aiming, you can use the LOS and the environment element to overcome your weakness.
    I played in arena in WoW, we had similar gear, but in some fight I had better skills, but in some fight I did not have any chance to win, because the enemy was much better.
    I played Starcraft. It was accused that it is a clicking championship, no strategic thinking is needed. But I was very bad at clicking my APM was about 60-70 (pros are about 150-200), and I was in the 2nd best league, because I played strategically.

    I know that you do not want to remove anything what an MMORPG already has, but my experience is that in an action based MMORPG, you have much less character-skill to use once. As you have to aim, your mouse is not free to click on a rarely used skill what would be great in your current situation. You need to grow some more fingers or buy special equipment be able to map and use the same amount of skills. That is why I fear from the aiming in the MMOs. I like to have tons of skills even if I use them once a week.
    But I am open for action based combat, I just fear from it.

    Good post.
    I rather use a various amount of skills (15~25) in combat and using positioning and teamcoordination rather then the fight only beeing about "who can circlestrafe the most to confuse the other player and headshot the most"

    The younger generation are 99% FPS players and they bring in very bad influences to the mmorpg genre that has made the genre much worse and is a main reason why no game survives longer than a couple of months.
    Really the only games since EQ/DaoC/WoW that has survived for a longer time has all been using the core mechanics, and the ones that have failed has gone the FPS route.

    Tera is still alive and kicking, receiving updates and has a decent community. From what I hear, BDO is still alive as well. Both are action based. I love Tera and the skill based combat. It is a prime example why I prefer action combat because of the involvement in the combat and true skill required, along with strategy and coordination in team content in both PVE and PVP.
  • torkel56torkel56 Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    UndeadCanadianGamer wrote: »
    No. It has been said many times by Steven that it will be a hybrid system. You will be able to go to 75% (I think) to one way, but not completely action or tab.

    I hear ya. I am not a huge fan of action, but if that is what it takes to play this game, I am up for it.

    He also said if the Action combat didnt work they will go back to a tab target system.
  • torkel56torkel56 Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Selo wrote: »
    I really dislike action combat and find tab target superior in every way.
    Will i be able to play with only tab target or am i forced into hybrid?

    I loved the black desert action combat. I cant stand the action combat thats in Apoc. So Im hoping for a good tab targeting system.
  • LordBlankLordBlank Member
    Ahh yes, the superior system
    https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxW-PlSL22N2HLnRyKOf-XWRyGik-SaDv-
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
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  • mobtekmobtek Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Azathoth wrote: »
    @Tsukasa

    Would you still play an action combat oriented character if their attacks were x2 slower?

    (this could be true because it could prevent action combat from spamming 'head shots')

    See, we can all make up obviously loaded questions and then say some bs to make them sound somewhat reasonable.

    You are, however, way better at this than most.

    lol i garnered the point was that it could be balanced based on the amount of effort and skill required to perform the action, hence Tab could do less damage and Action could do more if their aim is good or whatever [Unless it's practically the same skill requirement like a Melee swing perhaps]; and whether you'd find that to be reasonable/ be OK with that.
    Hartwell wrote: »
    Action combat and tab are both full of spam and counter plays. Action combat is more unwieldy, while target combat is more restrictive. For example, in target combat you can have a charge that can only be used to engage a target, not run away. Action combat would let you charge at any direction. If I had to objectively choose which side was more brainless, I'd have to choose the spell that allowed for more freedom. Having a rule such as "You can only use this spell to charge an enemy." is a restriction that must be kept in mind. Being able to use an ability at any time for any purpose requires less thought, not that is a bad thing. Requiring less thought to use an action can make things feel fluid. I think that is where action combat truly shines.

    I like Hybrid as well. I think Charge should require Rage to be more thematic and give it a reason to be Tab only though; hyperfixation on a target lol

    For other things it's mostly a convenience which is a bit lame in most cases but they can take the reduced Attack Speed or whatever, and others can whiff their shots in Action combat.

    Having Tab can be a boon against aimbotters though; the weaker the exploit banning, the more skilled everyone has to be to compete with bots/ scripts.
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Lots of conversation around OP's topic, which I love to see!

    Just incase anyone here hasn't checked it out, the wiki is full of tons of information! You can read more on hybrid combat here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting ^_^
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Rem_ wrote: »
    Selo wrote: »
    grisu wrote: »
    @Selo I didn't care to read through all comments for this quick information.
    According to Steven everything that is not automatically used on something is action combat.
    So if you place down some aoe that you have to manually place on the ground, it's already action combat.
    Take that as you will, we will see how the combat will feel.
    Tab target/action combat % will have a big impact on my choice of class.
    I played an elementalist in GW2, worst choice ive ever made in an mmorpg.
    The crazy spam and buttonmashing and people just strafing 1cm to the side so all your projectiles missed..
    Placing a huge GTAoE spell with action combat is fine, but if combat will be anything like BR/Fortnite bunnyjumping, buttonmashing and LoS twitching..yea the game will die in 3 months.
    How is tab targeting any different from that ? You strafe with tab targeting and you also just smash buttons as well. The only difference being you don't have to actively aim anything, it's done for you so it takes an element of skill away. How old are you by chance ? literally every single huge game ever has action combat, and only mmorpgs that have to appeal to the veteran audience only have tab targeting. Hence why the genre hasn't exploded in growth like say, BRS. To most younger newer people TAB targeting feels SO dull and so slow and it shows so much less skill than if you just added a simple element of aiming to it. That adds so many extra levels of skill.

    Imagine CSGO except it aimed for you, but you just had to manage the timing and rotations of reloading and weapon switching.

    Although it seems you just ignore anything that makes sense, like only appealing to people who have been playing mmorpgs for 20 + years and have families and jobs isn't the way to revitalize and grow the industry. It may be a good way to appeal to the smaller mmorpg audience but that's it, the game could be large in the mmorpg community but aside from that it couldn't. That's clearly evident with the "Good" tab targeting games that bring in hardly any new players.

    Focusing on reloading and WASD sounds like a good idea though. I can see that appealing to people. You can try and manage 3 mechanics or just 2; if you perform well you do better than if you let it work automatically. If you fail it's a bit worse.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I would argue that BRs are more popular with youth, over the older audiences, because of attention span. But, I could be as wrong as others making assumptions.

    I would say most adults have a slow 'attention span' that can't adapt or focus on new things (react and respond), and can't handle repeated semi-public failure in competition without any way to improve outside of self-improvement, with no mercy or sympathy from the opponent or even allies but instead mocking egos (worse that they're 16 or some shit).
    In other words competitive games are rough. But it's still just a game.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Damokles wrote: »
    ferryman wrote: »
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I would argue that BRs are more popular with youth, over the older audiences, because of attention span. But, I could be as wrong as others making assumptions.

    You are right. MMORPGs are for men and women made from iron, and BRs are more for drooling kids. ;)

    "In my days, we had to crawl into the dungeons! We had to pass through multiple zones, sometimes way over our level by foot! We did not have those 'mounts' that you all are riding around on at lvl 20, one mount cost as much as three months of farming."

    At that point you might as well get into Engineering or Politics lol. Maybe open a Business, Farm your Lawn, hand out micro-loans. . . make an Earth Power Generator and plug it in to sell back to the electri company [referring to what Telegrams used; rods of metal stuck in the ground and wired together produce electricity]. . . lol
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