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DPS Meter Megathread

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Comments

  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited February 1
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)

    This sounds like children saying they are rping while holding the monster manual and listing everything off about every encounter and what they are weak to.

    Eventually there is a point where you are not actually rping and just doing what you want.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)
    It really has nothing to do with whether or not Noaani's preferred playstyle is "wrong".
    What matters is whether it fits with the goals of the Ashes game design.
    "Ashes is not made for everyone."
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)

    This sounds like children saying they are rping while holding the monster manual and listing everything off about every encounter and what they are weak to.

    To me, that just sounds like RP'ing a professional.

    As I said earlier, if I was my character, in that world, and I was an adventurer, you had better believe that is what I would do.

    I mean, that is what I do with my real profession, and my previous profession, so why would I not do that if my profession was life or death?

    It is the notion that this CAN'T be good RP that is just blatantly wrong. Not all RP needs to consist of bumbling idiots - sometimes our characters can be competent at what they do.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)

    This sounds like children saying they are rping while holding the monster manual and listing everything off about every encounter and what they are weak to.

    To me, that just sounds like RP'ing a professional.

    As I said earlier, if I was my character, in that world, and I was an adventurer, you had better believe that is what I would do.

    I mean, that is what I do with my real profession, and my previous profession, so why would I not do that if my profession was life or death?

    It is the notion that this CAN'T be good RP that is just blatantly wrong. Not all RP needs to consist of bumbling idiots - sometimes our characters can be competent at what they do.

    This isn't a isekai though you aren't going to get that kind of op power. If you are roleplaying that character you are going to be normal and not knowing all information you are going to have to figure things out as you go through it. And if you die its the end.

    It has nothing to do with being bumbling idiots, its about you are exploring a world and encountering things for the first time. So you have that kind of alien feeling to the world and sense of danger.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited February 2
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)

    This sounds like children saying they are rping while holding the monster manual and listing everything off about every encounter and what they are weak to.

    To me, that just sounds like RP'ing a professional.

    As I said earlier, if I was my character, in that world, and I was an adventurer, you had better believe that is what I would do.

    I mean, that is what I do with my real profession, and my previous profession, so why would I not do that if my profession was life or death?

    It is the notion that this CAN'T be good RP that is just blatantly wrong. Not all RP needs to consist of bumbling idiots - sometimes our characters can be competent at what they do.

    This isn't a isekai though you aren't going to get that kind of op power. If you are roleplaying that character you are going to be normal and not knowing all information you are going to have to figure things out as you go through it. And if you die its the end.
    I'm not sure what kind of op power it is you are talking about here.

    If I were roleplaying a character they wouldn't know the information - this part is correct. Until, that is, they do.

    Since using a combat tracker only gives me data on fights I am participating in, I am learning that information at the same time my character would. It isn't as if the first time seeing a wyrven or some shit my tracker could tell me what it does - it can only ever tell me what it has already done to me, and my character would know that.
    It has nothing to do with being bumbling idiots, its about you are exploring a world and encountering things for the first time. So you have that kind of alien feeling to the world and sense of danger.
    Yeah, the difference being as I explore the world, I pay attention to it. As per the above, I as a player can't use a tracker to learn anything that my character hasn't experienced - thus I am learning at the appropriate pace.

    At the absolute best, your argument could apply to alts.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    The model would work for all competitive games.
    The link Mag7Spy posted was about LoL
    Yes, the MSI monitor was showcasing it's AI ability in LoL.

    However, the notion of players needing to get up, out of their house, across town to some specific location to just play an MMORPG is going to kill MMORPG's. It works in South Korea, but that is because that has been the culture there for generations (in MMO terms).

    The reason people care about LoL is because millions of peope play it every day. Millions of people are not going to play it if they need to go to psecific, certified places to do so. At least not in the west.

    well, back in the day, people played ragnarok online at cybercafes in latinamerica. this was very common. also in the phillipines. i know people who still play games in cyber cafes, and some of those games are mmorpg (although they arent as popular as before). hell, i even know people who dont own a computer (they have phones and consoles though, and some dont even have those).

    id say that it wouldnt work in usa, but it would in latin america (thats part of the west, and we have more people than usa). some people even go to cyber cafes and play not because they cant play at home, but because they can hang out with friends while playing. its a social activity.

    with that being said, i dont want games to be limited to cyber cafes only, i wanna be able to play at home.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    The model would work for all competitive games.
    The link Mag7Spy posted was about LoL
    Yes, the MSI monitor was showcasing it's AI ability in LoL.

    However, the notion of players needing to get up, out of their house, across town to some specific location to just play an MMORPG is going to kill MMORPG's. It works in South Korea, but that is because that has been the culture there for generations (in MMO terms).

    The reason people care about LoL is because millions of peope play it every day. Millions of people are not going to play it if they need to go to psecific, certified places to do so. At least not in the west.

    well, back in the day, people played ragnarok online at cybercafes in latinamerica. this was very common. also in the phillipines. i know people who still play games in cyber cafes, and some of those games are mmorpg (although they arent as popular as before). hell, i even know people who dont own a computer (they have phones and consoles though, and some dont even have those).

    id say that it wouldnt work in usa, but it would in latin america (thats part of the west, and we have more people than usa). some people even go to cyber cafes and play not because they cant play at home, but because they can hang out with friends while playing. its a social activity.

    with that being said, i dont want games to be limited to cyber cafes only, i wanna be able to play at home.

    It's also common in South Korea - which is why Korean MMORPG's are inherently designed differently than MMORPG's from NA and EU.

    The issue with the suggestion is that it would make any MMORPG that followed the idea to simply not be played in NA/EU, and many people in other parts of the world would still skip it over if they can't play it at home.

    The other issue with it is that the people running the game couldn't just assume every Internet cafe was following the rules - they are generally no more trustworthy than the average MMO player (they are often managed by the average MMO player). So even in those areas where it is common to go to places like this, it would still be limited in regards to exactly which establishments they could go to in order for the developer to guarantee there won't be any cheating.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I fully understand where Dygz is coming from a rp perspective, meanwhile noaani is trying to make a statement if your character had god powers they would use it RP wise .A statement that is missing the actual soul of rp.


    No soul = no fun. Looking at tracking numbers to figure out what you need to do to beat an encounter is not engaging.

    Having more information obviously will make things easier, but trying to make a point about the game design needs to be people using trackers to figure things out to make "hard" content is gross.

    Why is your RP better than someone else's RP?

    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)

    This sounds like children saying they are rping while holding the monster manual and listing everything off about every encounter and what they are weak to.

    To me, that just sounds like RP'ing a professional.

    As I said earlier, if I was my character, in that world, and I was an adventurer, you had better believe that is what I would do.

    I mean, that is what I do with my real profession, and my previous profession, so why would I not do that if my profession was life or death?

    It is the notion that this CAN'T be good RP that is just blatantly wrong. Not all RP needs to consist of bumbling idiots - sometimes our characters can be competent at what they do.

    This isn't a isekai though you aren't going to get that kind of op power. If you are roleplaying that character you are going to be normal and not knowing all information you are going to have to figure things out as you go through it. And if you die its the end.

    It has nothing to do with being bumbling idiots, its about you are exploring a world and encountering things for the first time. So you have that kind of alien feeling to the world and sense of danger.

    Idk what you're talking about I have the Perfect Observation and Godly Appraisal skills irl.

    Get on my level I guess?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    What if someone thinks that looking at numbers to figure something out is really engaging. Why do you have the right to say that they are wrong? (If its not against the TOS)
    It really has nothing to do with whether or not Noaani's preferred playstyle is "wrong".
    What matters is whether it fits with the goals of the Ashes game design.
    "Ashes is not made for everyone."

    That means the game should give reduced rewards to players who are "looking at numbers".
    And sometime should randomly reward choices which look like mistakes, potentially even suicidal.
    Chaotic evil NPCs made by chaotic evil developers, for innocent adventurers.
  • MrMurlocMrMurloc Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Definitely, the DPS and HP meter is very convenient in understanding the usefulness of a class in specific situations when damage is too important.

    And also to understand how useful you are and whether you are using rotation correctly. Which equipment and build brings more profit.

    If the Creators are completely against this idea. It would be nice to at least use this function during training with a mannequin and generally create mannequins in the game on which you can train.☺️
  • Veil MistwardenVeil Mistwarden Member, Alpha Two
    DPS Meters have always been a crutch, not a tool to "help you improve"

    If you can't tell how fast things are dying based off your own Cooldowns...then you're doing it wrong.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    DPS Meters have always been a crutch, not a tool to "help you improve"

    If you can't tell how fast things are dying based off your own Cooldowns...then you're doing it wrong.

    This is probably the most simplistic, ill considered opinion on this topic.

    If you think knowing how fast a mob dies is a substitute for a combat tracker, you do not know what a combat tracker does.

    This seems to be a common theme with most people that call them DPS meters - including the OP of this thread.
  • abc0815abc0815 Member
    For alpha testing knowing numbers and "stuff" seems kinda important. As for the released game i don't really care since i don't consider it a must have feature.
  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member, Alpha Two
    There needs to be a DPS Meter and same as WoW you can even have different tabs for Healing (HPS) and even Interrupts/Silences or Kicks. This is just common sense tbh and it’s kinda essential for a PvX game such as AOC.
    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • MicoMico Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 14
    It seems like in today's MMO party structures, the type of job class you are doesn't matter as much when composing a party as its ranking within the meters.

    Before DPS/healing metering, team composition was based on what job classes you already had in your party and what class best filled the missing gaps in your team comp (based on spells/skills/abilities). Nowadays, we fill those gaps based on rankings within the metering system, with no real regard to their actual job class.

    So my question is: Which do you rather prefer when forming a party, valuing job classes based on their available sets of skills, spells, and abilities, OR classes being valued based on their meter outputs?

    In simpler terms: should ashes have DPS/Heals output meters?


  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Mico wrote: »
    It seems like in today's MMO party structures, the type of job class you are doesn't matter as much when composing a party as its ranking within the meters.

    Before DPS/healing metering, team composition was based on what job classes you already had in your party and what class best filled the missing gaps in your team comp (based on spells/skills/abilities). Nowadays, we fill those gaps based on rankings within the metering system, with no real regard to their actual job class.

    So my question is: Which do you rather prefer when forming a party, valuing job classes based on their available sets of skills, spells, and abilities, OR classes being valued based on their meter outputs?

    well, the meter can help you determine which build does the most damage, however, I think they can also backfire.

    also, you arent always just standing there dpsing. maybe build a does more dps, but since you have to move around all the time in PVP you might wanna use build b, just hit and run do more burst instead of sustained dps.

    i prefer valuing classes on their set of skills and overall strategy. like maybe we want an aoe party full of mages, or just a single target hit and run with just archers, or maybe one of each class for the dungeons. etc etc.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Oh man. There is a megathread for DPS meters, if you want to spend the next several hours reading: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45612/dps-meter-megathread/p1

    Steven's current take is that Ashes won't have DPS meters. I hope he sticks to it.
  • MicoMico Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Thanks for the link! Didn't know about it.

    Yeah, I can see the benefits of meters so that you can hone your skills in a class, but I also feel that they completely take away the focus of the class itself, and just put the onus on the numbers instead. It also kills the vibe of the game's immersion.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 14
    this is usually handled through 3rd party parsing programs, they'll exist weather or not the devs want them or not. No they don't ruin the game they give you a great example if someones trying hard, being relaxed or just slacking off.

    FFXIV's content is real slow on delivery and consumed rather quickly so they make your final tier of endgame extremely tight on the dps and healing checks. that being said having whatever parses as the best DPS isn't gonna make or break a fight. What determines if you win or not is your overall player skill, DPS doesn't mean anything if you can't dodge AOEs that can normally be dodged or maybe you have a bad rotation and you're just not bringing out the most of your class kit.

    The issue that comes up with parsing mainly in FFXIV is the low tier stuff, running 4man dungeons for currency and people will parse the randoms in there sometimes, and the randos will get shit on for not keeping up.

    I'm a little mixed on this cause as a Healer who tries to push as much DPS as possible while healing just enough to make sure no one ever dies it kinda irks me when I see healers who are setup to just overheal and be as lazy as possible.

    You can always make the argument that "you don't pay my sub" but at the same time when you join up for group play their time spent is on the line and anyone with any dignity will value their time, and to waste other people's time, by giving a bare minimum effort kinda offends me. Kinda in the same way it offends me when people try to tell me how to play, so this argument really goes both ways.

    Only thing I can say is don't be a dick and expect people to play the way you want them to play, but at the same time don't be lazy and waste people's time with a bare minimum effort
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Going to merge a DPS meter conversation into here :)
    community_management.gif
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Going to merge a DPS meter conversation into here :)

    noooooooooooooooo, this thread was finally dead for good. what have you done vaknar, what have you done? T__T
    that was borderline evil D:
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Depraved wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Going to merge a DPS meter conversation into here :)

    noooooooooooooooo, this thread was finally dead for good. what have you done vaknar, what have you done? T__T
    that was borderline evil D:

    2q6krsrn9iij.png
    community_management.gif
  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 15
    DPS Meters have always been a crutch, not a tool to "help you improve"

    If you can't tell how fast things are dying based off your own Cooldowns...then you're doing it wrong.

    Here is a cool skill from Assassination Rogue in WOW. It's at the bottom of the rogue tree, so its probably good, but there are a few other good options. How much damage do you think this skill can do over its full length?

    7v3iaz42mw0d.png


  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    No to a DPS meter. Last time I say anything on this topic. I get people will use 3rd party websites for this. FYI I will report every person I know that does.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 15
    Xeeg wrote: »
    My opinion this whole time is that if you can't detect it and you can't stop it, then the game designers should embrace it and employ it in their game design. Otherwise, the rules only serve to disadvantage people who follow rules. That's a terrible way to create a rule set and is a failure point in the game design.

    Don’t worry about it there’s a spoonful of data professionals here that actually can accurately disseminate data into anything meaningful. That will play this game, at least.

    Most people barely understand the visualizations they’re seeing, so let them yammer on about it.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 15
    Mico wrote: »
    It seems like in today's MMO party structures, the type of job class you are doesn't matter as much when composing a party as its ranking within the meters.

    Before DPS/healing metering, team composition was based on what job classes you already had in your party and what class best filled the missing gaps in your team comp (based on spells/skills/abilities). Nowadays, we fill those gaps based on rankings within the metering system, with no real regard to their actual job class.

    So my question is: Which do you rather prefer when forming a party, valuing job classes based on their available sets of skills, spells, and abilities, OR classes being valued based on their meter outputs?

    In simpler terms: should ashes have DPS/Heals output meters?


    In my experience, this only holds true in WoW - and it only holds true there because that is what the developers want.

    In WoW, they want all DPS to be interchangeable with each other. They want all tanks to be viable in all situations, they want all healers to be able to main heal on a raid.

    What this allows them to do is to half arse balance. If the "top tier" DPS is t dealing the damage it should, it doesn't matter, it just means some other class is top tier damage now. Same with tanks - instead of then saying a specific build of a specific class is supposed to be the main tank on raids, if they happen to miss thst mark with balance, guilds can just take along what ever build is best.

    Essentially, the "all DPS are interchangeable" thing is a mechanism to give developers an easier job, it isn't a result of combat trackers.

    It is also worth pointing out that you commented about "Before DPS/healing meterin", but this isn't really a valid time period. People were parsing MUD's back in the very early 90's, Meridian59 had a basic combat tracker before it hit live, WoW had trackers during the games initial beta. There is no scope to talk about "before trackers", because that is not a time that existed.

    What did exist is a "time before you were made aware of meters", but that is about it.
  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 15
    Noaani wrote: »
    It is also worth pointing out that you commented about "Before DPS/healing meterin", but this isn't really a valid time period. People were parsing MUD's back in the very early 90's, Meridian59 had a basic combat tracker before it hit live, WoW had trackers during the games initial beta. There is no scope to talk about "before trackers", because that is not a time that existed.

    What did exist is a "time before you were made aware of meters", but that is about it.

    Here is a screencap of a MUD that i used to play, and we had this combat tracker in the 90s..

    We didn't call it DPS, we called it Damage Per Round. And it would be different on every monster because of their Armour Class and Dodge vs your Accuracy stat.

    Being able to see what items boosted your rounds is huge. That +1 crit ring might actually be stronger than the +5 accuracy ring, versus certain monsters. The only way to know that was to loop the area for hours until your round averages were calculated.



    k4xilhv9nir5.png
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    No to a DPS meter. Last time I say anything on this topic. I get people will use 3rd party websites for this. FYI I will report every person I know that does.

    What's wrong with people knowing how bad you are?
  • JwscootJwscoot Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    No to a DPS meter. Last time I say anything on this topic. I get people will use 3rd party websites for this. FYI I will report every person I know that does.

    What's wrong with people knowing how bad you are?

    Literally laughed at this for 20 minutes!

    You don't even have the DPS meter and it's already making you unbearably toxic. I have never seen someone so succinctly disprove their own point. I wasn't part of this conversation and as PVPer I don't really care either way, but for some reason I found that incredibly funny. It was like the PVE nerd equivalent of "get gud scrub".
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