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Build and Spend Mechanic (Rage)
JamieKaos
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I don't know if this has been touched on yet but do we know if any of the archetypes will have a rage like mechanic?
I want to play something that has a barbarian feel to it or in the same vein as WoWs warrior class.
If not a build and spend mechanic maybe something akin to DnD or Pathfinder where you can rage but after combat ends you get a debuff that would make your character fatigued for a bit.
The DnD style of rage would have that risk-reward feel that Ashes is going for, having to decide when to pop your rage for the bonus and dealing with the consequence of being fatigued afterward.
I guess what I'm saying is I want a Barbarian like class that is a bit reckless and aggressive that needs that thrill of battle to hit its full potential 🤣
I want to play something that has a barbarian feel to it or in the same vein as WoWs warrior class.
If not a build and spend mechanic maybe something akin to DnD or Pathfinder where you can rage but after combat ends you get a debuff that would make your character fatigued for a bit.
The DnD style of rage would have that risk-reward feel that Ashes is going for, having to decide when to pop your rage for the bonus and dealing with the consequence of being fatigued afterward.
I guess what I'm saying is I want a Barbarian like class that is a bit reckless and aggressive that needs that thrill of battle to hit its full potential 🤣
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https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mana
That's the vibe I was getting and I hope they consider using a few different resources for the various archetypes. I'm not a fan of the, everyone is a mage, way of doing things.
How would you want it implemented @Gilikoth ? For example, let's say fighter and tank both got a "rage" resource that is built during combat or taking damage. What happens when I spec tank/mage or fighter mage? Do we add a secondary pool of mana? Does the warrior change completely to mana based combat since all abilities will be altered to exhibit a mage style influence?
The tank could have a "rage" passive where incoming and out going damage increases your mana pool, or say the rouge gets a passive where if they are flanking or behind the enemy they get the back stab passive applied to attacks. This way there isn't an entirely different resource adding an extra layer of headache to workout in the augment system.
Another option would be to add a third resource much like ESO but rather than starting with that resource full, it grows as damage is either taken or given out. Then you would have an option like in ESO to change how a core ability works. If your axe throw used to be a stamina based resource that did physical damage maybe augmenting it to become a mana based attack now does magic damage or something along those lines.
All I know is that playing the tank didn't feel that great running out of mana and needing to rely on a mage to top me off or slowly recover my mana. For me a warrior or tank or barbarian really feels the best when I can build up my resource and unleash fury at my opponents or pop a big damage mitigation ability. Also long as it has that feel, I guess I don't really care if it's call mana, essence, rage or whatever.
That's easy. The secondary class only augments the primary class, it doesn't even give you new skills. so no matter what you would use rage. The mage would only alter what those rage-induced fighter skills do to an extent.
Let's say that a mage augment school is elemental damage, and then the rage class adds fire damage to their ability, does that make sense? Rage is a physical force and then a rage consuming ability does elemental (magic) effects?
However, if what we've seen in Alpha 1 is any indication of how the game will be at release, I don't believe there will be any class that doesn't have magic as part of it. Which is why just sticking with mana as a resource makes sense from a lore perspective. It doesn't mean that having different resources can't work, but sticking with just mana probably works better.
After giving it more thought I really don't care what resource they use, I just want it to feel right. Tank not being able to use tank abilities because you're OOM just feels wrong. That's why I'm thinking rage could be a passive for the parent archetype that generates mana through damage dealt and received or rather refueling the essence through battle.
Especially since I primarily have always played physical classes, except in ESO where everyone is basically some form of magic, I really want to have the option to play something that FEELS like it's a primarily a melee beat stick.
I'm with you with adding fire damage to an attack doesn't make you a mage and it could be used to alter the rage abilities. I mean fire and rage go together extremely well 🤣
It might need a cooldown to prevent abuse though. (And to not stress out the healers too much.)
Ok but if fighter abilities are built around a rage mechanic, how are you going to add that flavor to a mage spell for a mage/fighter... Or would you just ignore that whole aspect of a fighter when creating augments...
Just having only mana would be easier.
Having more dedicated resources would make reach class feel more unique.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I would argue that there are probably more that have this than there are that don't.
An augment modifies the skills of your main class in a way that resembles your secondary class. Any mechanics of that secondary class have nothing to do with it.
But before you start asking that classes be more unique, maybe wait until we actually see them first? You’re getting a bit ahead of yourself. We barely know anything about most of the classes.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Ok
But if a class is built around a mechanic that has a resource how are you going to have an ability augmented to resemble that class and just not have that resource exist...
Either way
I didn't ask for anything. Or even make a suggestion.
I don't care what they do for this honestly...
As far as the tank not being able to use tank abilities because he is OOM. Most of those abilities aren't resource based at all, just cooldown timers.
"Essence" again, just cos I've already said it so many times. Essence.
Essence.
Thanks for distilling the Essence of the lore for us. I really felt like you captured it's essence.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
@Noaani it's fine that there are a lot of MMOs that have tanks go OOM, I'm just personally not a fan of how it feels because I love the feel of build and spend mechanics.
I just want to have a class or play style that fits what I like in an MMO. I don't care really how they go about it but I want my character to feel like a raging barbarian or something akin to it.
It could be through an active ability, a passive ability, or a resource. Just something that allows me to take the damage I'm taking or the damage I'm dealing to generate the resource I use for my abilities.
@Atama I'm also down with the sacrifice hp for mana regeneration as well, keeps with the risk and reward theme.
I think they would need to focus on something more like the other Diablo 3 resources instead. Since aside from Fury a lot of those were pretty well designed resource systems. A lot of them let you unload your skills from the beginning and had unique traits to them that made them worth having to begin with. While not giving many advantages for generation.
Not really against alternative resource systems aside from fury though. Thematic resources make sense, but I don't think they either put much thought into it or are just going to default to mana. In a way they kinda already wrote it to make sense that every class could have mana and make sense.
U.S. East
Someone will say what is lost can never be saved.
Especially with the harsh death penalty for people who are corrupted.
im not thrilled of the idea that tanks should be depending on mana to be functional. i think it would be a huge benefit to having a 2 tier source system. like fighters and tanks should have something similar to how the demonhunter in diablo 3 operates with "hatred" being rage and "dicipline" being mana. as you burn mana you build rage and as you spend rage you build mana.
but then you would need to revise most the classes. like in WoW warlocks use soulstones, a summoner can use this same concept to limit their ability to summon endless familiars. cause if the only limiting factor is their mana then they can basically do everything solo. especially if they can "summon 3 familiars at a time (tank dps and support)", they should be able to harvest fractions of soulstones from animals, living objects, golems, and hostile plant life. and larger portions of the stones from humanoid enemies.
rouge and rangers mainly use energy and mana as a secondary. mages are high capacity mana bearers that can lend out mana, clerics spend health as a secondary for revives where the cost is taken before the cast begins, also strong heals and AoE heals share the cost of both mana and hp.
bards i think would be the only unique class that as they buff teammates they build a kind of "motivation" resource. that gives them a heavy hitting ability that depletes their motivation bar in one use.
anyway this would be my iteration.
bottom line - if everyone is solely dependent on mana it will make things unbalanced because based on classes alone some will have a larger mana pool and also could utilize the mana better for more dps.. in this structure i think summoner, mages and rouges would hold the place of strongest in pvp.
only putting rouge in because they are known to deal huge amount of damage without spending mana by simply stealthing and backstabbing and you wouldn't even know to react.
What are you basing this on? This hasn’t been demonstrated so far in what they’ve shown us.
If you managed your resources you could fight non stop, no downtimes aside from moving from one group to the other.
fair point, maybe im generalizing to much with other MMOs on the market. but it removes a level of enjoyment to play a warrior like you would a mage, like a ranger, like a summoner.. if there is no other element to how each class functions differently then there really isnt any aspect to master and isn't intellectually challenging. your just spamming skills in a META order like you would with any other class.. that kind of PvP is braindead and uninteresting..
for example as a tank, if the ability ultimate defense also broke stuns or roots, id rather have that dependent on rage that i need to plan ahead to have ready, then simply have it on standby ready to use at any moment with mana. even if i was caught off guard and had to watch my health drop as my rage built it would add some excitement of weather or not i can turn this fight around.
I’ll turn this around and say that if the only difference between classes is how resource management works, then the game would be a failure because then they would play the same.
I’ve played plenty of MMOs where resource management was identical between classes. I’d wager that most MMOs are like that. And it’s okay because that’s just one minor aspect of what can make them distinctive.
I’ll tell you this much… I played all 3 classes in Alpha 1 and they played very differently. I greatly favored the Mage play style over the other two (to my surprise; it was the class I was least interested in). What makes them different is the skills you have. They were different enough that I had a strong preference for one over the other.
Homogeny is probably the last thing you’ll need to worry about with Ashes. You’re going to have 8 real classes with unique skills, then each class can get a secondary class (one of 8) that adds augments to change those skills, then you have a different set of weapon skills for each weapon, and then more augments based on race and religion. There will be so much variety that I doubt having the same resource pool will matter much.
I’ll also say, too, that the classes have different ways to manage mana. The Mage I played had a spell that drained mana from enemies to help keep it up. I don’t have much experience with the other classes but they’ll probably have some totally different way to do it. While they might all have mana, if that is managed differently for different classes then they might feel like different resources.
this kinda proves my point. if as a mage you syphon my mana to replenish your own and in doing so increases my rage, you have less chance to keep me rooted and at a safe distance. it will force you to rethink your strategy. making the fight that much more interesting. where as if all i have is mana and you only need to syphon my mana to stop me from casting it decentivizes me to keep playing tank in a pvp setting. because im powerless against a mage.
(edit) everyone wants to be in power. so as i said before everyone will gravitate to MAGES, summoners and rouges. 8 or 64 or 312 variations is irrelevant. those who are easiest to be strongest with will be the favored choice by all.
the alternative is people who want to only play tank but only get destroyed whenever they play will not return to the game. they will find another game where tanks are more impactful.
IMO this is more a problem with most MMO's giving Tanks nothing but "threat/hate" mechanics to do tanking.
If you want to talk legitimate skirmishing, MOBAs have lots to say: they have both tanks that use mana and tanks that don't - and these tanks are all competitively viable in a PvP team skirmish.