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I implore the devs to work on archetypes and classes before it's too late.

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Comments

  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I think you could start with basic attack animations without having to know all of the animations for every class.

    Once you understand the combat approach for:
    - melee weapon attacks
    - physical ranged attacks
    - casting ranged attacks
    - direct casted heals
    - melee conal aoe
    - casted aoe
    - multi target heals

    Then you can fan out to specialized attacks and unique animations, with some potential refactoring as you discover more.
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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Murdach wrote: »
    Hailee wrote: »
    What even is this statement. We know they're working on combat right now, we can't have classes without a combat system :D

    I would actually say working on combat is less effective if you dont know what classes there are. Working on swinging a weapon or waving a hand is ok, but do they need to add animations for Sleep? Stagger? Stun? Are you going to make every sword swing part of a generic "sword" suite? Or will a different archetypes have different sword swing animations? Will Augments affect sword swing animation?

    You cant answer these without knowing what the class system is bringing to the table.

    This is backward.

    Combat is first, classes are emergent.

    If you try to make Combat emergent from classes your PvE will be terrible and your balance will be spotty.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Murdach wrote: »
    I would actually say working on combat is less effective if you dont know what classes there are. Working on swinging a weapon or waving a hand is ok, but do they need to add animations for Sleep? Stagger? Stun? Are you going to make every sword swing part of a generic "sword" suite? Or will a different archetypes have different sword swing animations? Will Augments affect sword swing animation?

    You cant answer these without knowing what the class system is bringing to the table.
    Just because we don't know the details of Ashes classes does not mean the devs don't know those details.
  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    Combat system and classes are developed at the same time because those are bound to each other. It is not like either one is done first.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • MurdachMurdach Member

    Once you understand the combat approach for:
    - melee weapon attacks
    - physical ranged attacks
    - casting ranged attacks
    - direct casted heals
    - melee conal aoe
    - casted aoe
    - multi target heals

    Then you can fan out to specialized attacks and unique animations, with some potential refactoring as you discover more.

    So you think they should do generic move suites, then specialize later. This is what I am afraid of. My prime example of this turning out poorly is Gazillion's Marvel Heroes. Every time they came out with a unique/specialized attack or animation, they goosed the power up or down and had to rebalance pretty much every time. This is not a 1:1 comparison as this rebalance would happen before launch hopefully. However, it's extra development time that could be avoided if the specializations are known before the combat is baked in.

    Again, I am not demanding details. I am asking. Because it's been a long time since they have talked about at all.

  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    edited June 2022
    We know our players are excited to see the archetypes and classes in action. Ashes of creation is a monumentally sized project and we want it to be perfect. That means that it will take time. We don't want to rush this game but would rather take the time necessary to make it exactly as Steven has envisioned!

    With that said, archetypes and classes are not at all being neglected by our teams. They're actively being worked on and we are so excited to show them off once they're ready!

    What archetypes and classes are you all excited to see and play?
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    All the ones we haven't seen yet!!
    (I already have 4 X/Bard alts planned.)
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited June 2022
    @Vaknar Summoners are the massive highlight for me and what niche is this class/archetype going to provide.

    I'm also very scared for it being messy in a mass player setting IE with more than 1 thing summoned out, I'd prefer there to be a focus on 1 pet at a time but unlike Lineage 2 I'd like there to be fast summoning, like if the summoner is connected to another plane of existance calling magical beasts out one at a time to perform certain tasks or until its death.
  • SinderSinder Member, Alpha Two

    Vaknar wrote: »

    What archetypes and classes are you all excited to see and play?

    I'm excited to see the ranger archetype and specifically how the falconer class will play as I'm planning on making one as a possible main
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    I long to imagine a change, my heart is frozen by the winter rain.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    We know our players are excited to see the archetypes and classes in action. Ashes of creation is a monumentally sized project and we want it to be perfect. That means that it will take time. We don't want to rush this game but would rather take the time necessary to make it exactly as Steven has envisioned!

    With that said, archetypes and classes are not at all being neglected by our teams. They're actively being worked on and we are so excited to show them off once they're ready!

    What archetypes and classes are you all excited to see and play?

    I'm curious about the summoner... But I'm mostly excited for the idea of secondary archetype and playing around with blending classes to set how far I can shift them.
  • ShileeShilee Member, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    We know our players are excited to see the archetypes and classes in action. Ashes of creation is a monumentally sized project and we want it to be perfect. That means that it will take time. We don't want to rush this game but would rather take the time necessary to make it exactly as Steven has envisioned!

    With that said, archetypes and classes are not at all being neglected by our teams. They're actively being worked on and we are so excited to show them off once they're ready!

    What archetypes and classes are you all excited to see and play?

    I am trying to figure out if I want to main Nightspell, Shadow lord, or Shadow Caster, but I am leaning towards rogue being my main archetype
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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    I am curious about bard and summoner because those are less generic classes. However, I do not know what I am going to play yet but if old habbits stays it will be something grim and combination of damage dealer and enemy distraction (support).
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    It's so interesting proving my L2 bias by hearing that bards and summoners are less generic, when L2 had like 5 bards and ~5 summoners, with some of them being partly mages or healers or tanks.
  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    It's so interesting proving my L2 bias by hearing that bards and summoners are less generic, when L2 had like 5 bards and ~5 summoners, with some of them being partly mages or healers or tanks.

    Yeah but if we examine MMORPGs or RPGs more widely there is always a fighter, mage, ranger and rogue, for example. Thus, compared to those bards and summoners can be considered less generic but yeah fair point that it can be subjective and depends also players' experiences.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I was not a fan of FF14 conflating rangers and bards. It just felt... eeegh.

    Well implemented Bards are few and far between, because it takes some sophisticated mechanics / systems for the Bard's strengths to shine. I would love to see this happen with Ashes.

    But seriously those glossed up entertainers need to keep their distance from us wilderfolk.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • MurdachMurdach Member
    edited June 2022
    Vaknar wrote: »
    We know our players are excited to see the archetypes and classes in action. Ashes of creation is a monumentally sized project and we want it to be perfect. That means that it will take time. We don't want to rush this game but would rather take the time necessary to make it exactly as Steven has envisioned!

    With that said, archetypes and classes are not at all being neglected by our teams. They're actively being worked on and we are so excited to show them off once they're ready!

    What archetypes and classes are you all excited to see and play?

    Thanks for the reply, fam. I have to reserve which archetypes and classes I am excited to play for when we get more info on the combinations. What I am most excited for is debuff classes. Crowd control stacking, healing debuffs, weakening, etc. I enjoy joining a team that was struggling with content and helping them win through non-direct means.

    **Edited to make clear that I dont need to do ALL of those things with one character, but those are examples of things I like***
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    CROW3 wrote: »
    I was not a fan of FF14 conflating rangers and bards. It just felt... eeegh.

    For all the crap I give 14, at least it made bard cooler imo.

    Like the heroic legend of Arslan anime, I mean, I would want a Bard like that, that is also a component and intelligent fighter, I simply don't believe in some forever tooting instrument player buffing players like Pied the Piper calmly going along his business while characters with six packs, wielding 2h axes and magic getting slung around every which direction.
    Stuff like that is far too traditional for my liking.

  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Dygz wrote: »
    All the ones we haven't seen yet!!
    (I already have 4 X/Bard alts planned.)

    Personally, I've wanted to main a Bladedancer in Ashes of Creation long before I started working here and that hasn't changed! Bard seems so cool to me because I've only played one other game with them (and I thought they were fun. It was LoTRO 😉)
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