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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Dev Discussion #46 - Materials: Less is More or More is Less?
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Materials: Less is More or More is Less?
Would you like to see a wide variety of materials that can be used for specific things, or fewer materials that can be used for a wide variety of things?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding Tanking!
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Comments
I feel like rare materials should be used in a variety of ways that makes crafting either easier or more interesting. Something like a rare material when used in a craft will automatically enchant the item. Modifying base stats in unpredictable ways or predicable ways depending on the material used. Exclusive effects or procs on the crafted item. Give the crafted item wild stats where one stat is boosted and one is reduced on the final product. Give an item allocation points to increase a specific stat and can be assigned later by someone you sell the item to. Reduced repair costs for a set amount of future repairs. Reduced cost to enchant the item. Reduced level requirements to make twink items.
I would prefer less generic materials and more specialized E.G. Essence Crystals used for every craft VS. a red dragon scale that reduces fire damage taken when used for crafting. A generic material reduces the impact of changing available content via the node system. I like the idea that you can go to a specific place and get a specific material. One that might not be available on every server due to node layout. This would drive player interactions and world change. Why would you want to go to dungeon X instead of dungeon Y if they both had the same generic drops.
On a side note I would prefer if a dungeon is dropping a specific material that non-boss mobs always have a chance to get that particular material. With boss mobs dropping a more abundant amount of the specific material. I do not like the idea of "Trash" mobs that are actually trash. They should always have something interesting in their loot table to make them worth the time it takes to kill them.
Formerly T-Elf
I believe that most crafting in Ashes of Creation should be done from recipes that call for resources. That recipe can sometimes call for a broad range of materials like "metal" or more specific resources like "mythril ingot". And then those metals could also be seasonally specific, or regionally specific. Then have a resource quality feature of those materials just like Star Wars Galaxies, where the resource quality level of the material and expertise of the crafter determine the end product's stat bonuses.
So, I'd like a wide variety of materials, with recipes that occasionally require specific materials, and then more general recipes that can be used with a larger variety of materials.
The resulting craft should have the same basic stats, but varying additional effects (within reason).
For example have Copper, silver, iron, mithril ore tiers 1 to 6 with diamonds and other gems being catalyst in crafting or buffing etc.
This makes a fully laden caravan an even more important target for protection/raiding and plays into the risk vs reward of that system.
If armor/weaponsmith will have a 20 IDs vs 200 IDs, that will shape the amount of resources needed.
The larger the catalog of items able to be created, you can expand on rare/uncommon resources requirements.
If you're making meaningful weapons/armor and the catalog is small - then less is more. Instead of rare/uncommon, you can have unique/legendary/rare mats as requirement.
I view this issue as being connected to open world economy and immersion, and so I always would make my suggestions from that perspective.
I like having more different materials because it allows developers more tools to mess with the economy, to inspire players to explore, and it seems like it would be a requirement for Ashes just to keep the Node system economies fresh. It's troublesome to have a lot of items to need to store separately, but I just can't see an enjoyable version of this for me with low itemization.
I also don't think it is necessary to do a lot of very specific items that are only used in one or two things, but how would things like 'Seasonable Gatherables' work across an entire world of Verra if we were so limited?
I also don't really see what a 'wide variety of things for them to be used FOR' would even be, so I guess I will have to wait for Alpha-2 to understand what that would mean. Other than that, I've got lots of opinions on food and far too many economic opinions that will need to be integrated into testing.
What I CAN say is that I don't mind if Fish are similar, but as I always say 'not like BDO please' where all Fish are functionally the same, large categories of meat are the same, etc.
In the end, I just can't imagine what the context of this question is. I don't know what 'fewer' or 'more' is to the Itemization team. I can say that I come from a two games with hundreds of items and that helps me enjoy both the economy (in one of them, anyway) and immersion (sort of). I know I'd be disappointed in 'less than 10 types of ore' and so on.
But I never know how to imagine what a Fantasy MMO world will be willing to 'leave out' until I see the plans, since so many items seem 'required' (Gemstones, for example, gotta be at least 10, right).
Fewer materials for a wider variety, But fewer materials at say every levels to 10 for example. So level 50 = 5 different types of wood for example. Overall keep your general basic woods/ores & mix it up recipe wise so even though its a lvl1-10 item it still has active use in useful recipes at capped level e.t.c. Then you have your Rare/Legendary low drop rate materials on top, be it capped level Or same deal.
Fish Is fine to have many but as long as they all do mostly the same job.
I don't see a point in using more than 3-5 materials per craft. Unless in Rare/Legendary recipes then sure more materials & rare ones on top or to replace if need be depending on system.
Bag space, storage space, mount storage space & stupid events where you might lose items come into play as factors. As we only know one of these. This is why I lean towards Less materials. To many items has always been a problem in certain mmos, inventory space, then the need to buy more to actually keep up Or worse, you don't buy it or have an option to get that space.
"""Would you like to see a wide variety of materials that can be used for specific things, or fewer materials that can be used for a wide variety of things?"""
Well, I would like to see a wide variety of materials that can be used for multiple things. I think when you go to craft a weapon you should be able to select which material to use that matches that part. For example WAND crafting (which I want to do in Ashes of Creation). Lets say as simple wand has two parts, the shaft and handle. You would have various materials that could be used for each. Each material would effect its stats in a specific way. The rarer the material, the better the stats. Maybe you get some "fire birch" which is a birch type wood that is infused with fire magic. You use that for the shaft. Then maybe for the handle you team up with your mining buddy and get some metal. Perhaps titanium (was gonna say mythril but come on, that's kinda basic fantasy). Anyway, the combo would effect its overall stats. This way different wand crafters will use different materials. Maybe a north continent wand crafter has more metallurgical wands thanks to the mountains there, while a southern wand crafter would have more wood based wands due to the vast amounts of trees.
essentially every type of material should have a quality level AND stats it effects. you could chop a tree and get QL30 (quality level) birch wood. but another birch tree might give you QL50 birch wood. and they would in fact stack differently. and the QL50 birch would give better stats than the QL30 birch. but the "same" stats just higher and lower. while different materials would effect different stats. so birch might give dexterity boost while redwood might get strength boost. for WEAK example. obviously as the development team, you would have to sit down, hash out all the materials you want to have, what stats they effect, and come up with your own tier list. but I want tons of materials to choose from. and having quality levels for materials means their worth can change from place to place. maybe some mountain town has 0 access to wood, so they have to import it. so FOR CRAFTING you might make more money on lower QL wood by selling to that town, than opposed to selling low QL wood at a town full of wood (and higher QL sales).
I think back to harry potter, wands are generally one or two pieces of wood, and then have a "core" which gives that wand its unique "personality". some wands shoot fire, some bursts of air, etc. maybe you use some magical fire wood and then use a pheonix feather. the combo means boosts to fire damage attack so any spells that use fire will get a small boost. and your auto attack would be a fire attack instead of another type. maybe some water based flower used in alchemy, would also be used as a core for wand, so now that wands auto attack is WATER based and boosts water type magical spells you might cast. there is so much you could do.
I think about armor crafting and weapon crafting. a basic sword has the blade, the guard, the handle, and the pommel. each part could be any material you want. mythril blade, some kind of gold/titanium alloy for the guard, petrified wood for the handle, and then gold /titanium for the pommel that also has a socketable gem. and then you could put a black onyx gem in. and the combo of things would result in a unique item. this gives crafters WAY MORE variability. crafting is extremely boring if everyone is making the exact same item (cough world of warcraft cough) and thus the only fight would be sale price. that shouldn't be the only factor. if I make the rarest wands in the game, it shouldn't be because im the only person at that high level. it should be because i found a combo that sells like hot cakes.
Crafting should be very dynamic. materials can stack, but only within the same quality level. if people want basic crafting with a basic tier list and everyone makes the same items, they are NOT crafters and personally i think they should be ignored. living in the world of ashes we should strive to be unique, from the skills and abilities we choose to use, to the armor and gear we wear, to the items we craft. and those that dont craft, will be more on the adventure and raiding side of the game. everyone has their place. basic crafting has no place in a world where everything else is super dynamic (in my opinion obviously).
of course you will do WHAT YOU WANT to do in terms of intrepid. but you want input. i gave mine.
Also this type of crafting system would mean you could "twink" new characters like the old days. so you make a level 1 item using highest QL materials and highest Tier materials. Making a noob weapon that does insane damage to make leveling back up easier. Making replaying the game a different way fun. Because the grind isn't as bad yet you can still have fun. the art of dynamic games is lost. no player should be the master of everything there needs to be a strengths/weakness system. a fire mage would be weak to water magic and water based monsters (water temple would be hell for a fire mage). meanwhile, you could equip gear to offset that bias. so instead of wearing fire based gear to boost damage, you will lose out on higher damage bonus with fire for surviving water magic. like having "robes of the water temple" which could give a fire mage some defense against water attacks. skeletons are weak to fire/bludgeon, double damage when using holy, but takes less damage from slashing and zero damage form piercing. and the items you wear, the gear, etc, all effect how you play your character. which is why crafting is so important. MAYBE a player comes to me, and orders a custom set of light armor for the exact reason of buffing a specific magical type defense. I tell them the price and/or materials I need, eventually I craft them, transaction complete.
custom orders would be really fun too. from taking on custom orders player vs player sense, and maybe the type of node that is for crafting, there would be a bulletin board for players to post crafting orders that other players could fulfill. a less indirect way of getting player vs player interaction. maybe fulfilling bulletin board orders for other players also helps the node XP wise. there is so much we can do for crafters in that sense. the worst thing, is to make crafting boring to where every crafter is the same. because you KNOW people will make alts so they never have to interact with other players. its the long time meme for world of warcraft. hell i have multiple characters in wow classic, each specializing in a crafting type. i never have to talk to other players for crafting. and that's wrong. i should have to buy metal from other players. and to interact.
I could literally go on for days. I think special "recipes/blueprints" would be for how armor LOOKS. so crafters have basic armor designs but can use any material for each piece. so if a dungeon drops a legendary blueprint, that then could be used to make a one off item. however im guessing legendary items will require specific materials of a specific quality (minimum wise) to make that item. but player items should be able to match stats but not the overall look. so I could make the same stats using the right really high QL materials, but it wont LOOK like the legendary armor 3d model wise. which makes the game extremely FAIR but also allowing players to feel unique because "no one looks like me". some will want that uniqueness. others will come to crafters to make gear with the same stats but look more "basic bish".
just. YES. tons of crafting items. each with their own level. stats. etc. make crafting dynamic.
I like this! I think coming from New Worlds, where most of the base is generic - it can be a problem. Especially for gathering and the leveling of gathering those items can be a pain. Then there's bots that go through and collect all the resources and then make it hard for everyone to gather on their own or to buy at a decent price.
That also being said, I don't want the system to be similar to how NW does materials. I.e. it takes 100 1st level to make 1 2nd level; it takes 10 2nd level to make 1 3rd level and so on. So in that respect, I would like a little bit of diversity or at least recipes that don't require a million of high level materials that can only be crafted with a million low level materials. I'm not asking for one to one, but a balance.
I think the good middle ground is having basic recipe's that get tailored to the level but have a separate material for specialization (You need tempered steel to make something a strength based thing or something)
TLDR: In some basic things (1st level/lowest level materials, i.e. animal hide or grass, twigs, etc) a bunch of generic things are fine. But the higher the level, the more specific the recipe (I.e. high level materials or rare materials). If I'm making a basic sword, more generic metal is cool. If I'm making a max level sword or a named sword - specific recipes and resources make sense. This should be separate from the resources or mods to make specific builds to items (str build should require different mods than a magic one).
EDIT: I would like something that makes it more of a conversation between the artisan classes to add to RP and to have ability for guilds (like the one I'm making with my friends) to make sense (since it mainly focuses on crafting and raids) especially within a player built world
Definitely prefer a lot of ingredients vs. low chance of success rates.
Edit: Now to address the question. I don't mind having a lot of unique items as long as their uniqueness is directly bound to a better crafted item. On the other hand is has to be balanced to allow storage facilities to have some free space.
While it is attractive to have fewer materials to make more things, it is also very interesting to have many materials to make other things.
Less is more
In this case it could be said that things would be more "simple and efficient" but on the other hand it could happen that it is very simple, that those "less" materials are so easy to exploit that it would lose sense to look for them, they will simply be there when you need them, the sense of searching for those "less" materials would be lost.
More is less
In this case it could be said that variety would help exploration, continuous search, more seasonal diversity, more variability of combinations, and many other things but it could also generate a feeling of accumulation since by needing so many materials to make things it would not feel so good to create a level 1 magic scroll.
I think the balance between less and more is the right point.
Giving importance of materials to very important things.
Give less importance of materials to less important things.
Give too much material importance to legendary things.
Things that make the player feel that the materials to be used are less or more important for something and for some purpose, but at the same time make the player feel that the things that are not very important, for something and for some purpose, do not need so many materials.
I believe this will create a better interaction with the world and the zones within as knowledge requirements of materials and where they are obtained will create more depth. It will also create a more interesting market due to material diversity.
But if you can craft the same thing with a variety of materials and this change the style. That would be cool. Like a oakwood table and a table made out of applewood is still a table, but the look is different.
* Incentivize the crafters to socialize with multiple gatherers/processors
* Creates interesting logistical challenges.
It is possible to have small recipes provide both social aspects and logistical challenges. Having only 3 or 4 ingredients can still force socialization and logistics by having more complex ingredients.
Example, you could have a recipe that require a common versatile ingredient (wood), a processed ingredient (nails) and a rarer ingredients to act as a bottleneck (Ivory from a rare elephant drop). Then you would need to socialize with gatherers, processors and PvEers to get your ingredients. Having the bottleneck also would incentivize the crafter to diversify his crafts and grow his empire as time goes.
There should be enough choice that it isn't just am I using oak or pine, but not flood the market with 700 types of wood that are effectively the same exact thing. There would be value in ideas such as "if I use Steel in crafting my hammer it will do more damage but it is heavy so I attack slower" vs. "I am including X material and it's lightweight so it's less durable and does less damage but quickens my swings". This doesn't have to be taken literally but there should be some amount of variability and based on the wiki I think looking at how SWG handled crafting (it did have flaws for sure) is a good starting point and still holds up 18+ years later.
Long Version: Cooking IRL often utilizes the Five Mother Sauces as a base for creating different dishes. Each of these bases consists of 1-3 ingredients and from there each can have things added to differentiate them. I would prefer something like this for cooking and possibly alchemy.
Carpentry, in my opinion, should utilize a wide variety of wood types that should be better/worse depending upon the item crafted. A prime example in history would be the use of Yew for English longbows.
Metalworking could include a small number of ingredients that can be combined in different proportions to create different metals, such as using 88% copper and 12% tin to make bronze.
Having played games where crafting is two clicks and you're done, all the way up to one item requiring bespoke components from multiple other crafting disciplines and gatherables locked behind RNG, I've found found that:
1. Nothing should require more than 2 professions too build.
2. Any more than 3 or 4 steps/components bloats the storage needs, since the multiple things you're building likely requires completely different materials.
3. The more overlap and reusability built into the materials, the more it feels good to harvest. If i know the wood I'm chopping can be used in both low level (now) and high level crafts (later on), the more likely I am to engage in the economy surrounding that material.
Player crafting should be just as, if not more important as questing/raiding for gear. Finding the balance between the time needed to do either option is vital.
One recent game made crafting a laborious task AND made losing that gear very quick. It was not a good experience.
I don't tend to be quite focused enough on the actual details of game economies to know the right way to build one. I leave that to Azherae most of the time.
I gotta say though, don't make useless damned items. BDO has many types of trees. This is good. If you don't have variety, it's gonna suck, but they also have a couple varieties that can be used to craft ZERO items. You heard me right. Zero. Their only purpose in game is "sell to NPC, I guess".
This annoys the hell out of me. I still have to collect that tree because of gathering byproduct I need, but then I end up sitting here with a ton of a LITERALLY useless log, which serves NO purpose but to inflate the economy when you sell it.
Variety: Yes please! Many types of wood: Yes please! But give me something to do with them. It's not even hard. Other games do it.