What if there was an automatic quest system (probably tied to religious organizations) that provide basic mini quests for elite mobs in the area (as soon as those spawn). And when you take this quest you can either take a party version (with much higher rewards to encourage it) or a solo one. And the solo version would give you a priest NPC who'd go with you to the mob and control surrounding mobs to fight anyone else in the nearest vicinity except you (control would be done through essence/corruption magic or whatever fits the lore). So in a way you'd have some basic protection against small groups of attackers, while you attempt to solo the mob.
A bigger party would still be able to just overpower the mobs and remove you if needed.
What do you think, would this be too convoluted? Or maybe too "green-appeasing"?
I think it's just not necessary.
Ashes is designed for highly competitive, hardcore gamers who love the adrenaline rush of PvP.
I play RPGs to emulate the Fantasy novels I read. And those Fantasy novels are about diverse people coming together to defeat a major threat - not the competition of who can defeat the threat first and gain all the loot.
To me, the server should be focused on cooperating to put an end to the Perpetual Winter that will remain in effect until the Winter Dragon is defeated; rather than trying to kill any "rival" player who might gain all the loot from the Winter Dragon.
WoW: Dragonflight is providing exactly the experience I've been craving - where both the Horde and the Alliance work together to defeat the common threat(s) during World Quests. And, since I'm on a PvE-Only server, PvP is barely even a possibility... I can completely ignore PvP.
I don't want to have to feel like I need protection from other players while I'm striving to defeat mobs.
PvPers think of "protection" from PvP - typically in the form of players who act as Anti-PvPer mercenaries. I think Non-Combatant PvEers are not really interested in mobs "protecting" them from PvP or other players "protecting" them from PvP.
The concept of removing competition from farming areas is not at all appealing to me. Quite the opposite.
Defending Caravans is appealing. Siege Defense is appealing.
Removing rival players from an area because Land Management dictates that depleted resources will trigger an Environmental Catastrophe is appealing. Where the focus of PvP is on the health of the region/Node; not pwning other players.
Ashes is designed for gamers who love EvE Online, Lineage II and ArcheAge. I think those gamers don't need a protection system.
Ashes is not really designed for players who love EQ, WoW and FFXIV. And I think the devs probably should not add systems to try to appeal to the players who have chosen not to play EvE Online, Lineage II and ArcheAge. Ashes is not designed for everyone. And that's OK.
Ashes is designed for gamers who love EvE Online, Lineage II and ArcheAge. I think those gamers don't need a protection system.
I cannot speak for EvE but, Lineage 2 and Archeage had protection system, in the form of the Karma System for L2 and Peace/War zone time cycles, so even "those gamers" are accustomed to a certain level of protection.
Ashes is not really designed for players who love EQ, WoW and FFXIV.
This statement is a bit too broad and general in my eyes, do you truly believe there are no pieces of design in Ashes that looks attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV lovers?
What if there was an automatic quest system (probably tied to religious organizations) that provide basic mini quests for elite mobs in the area (as soon as those spawn). And when you take this quest you can either take a party version (with much higher rewards to encourage it) or a solo one. And the solo version would give you a priest NPC who'd go with you to the mob and control surrounding mobs to fight anyone else in the nearest vicinity except you (control would be done through essence/corruption magic or whatever fits the lore). So in a way you'd have some basic protection against small groups of attackers, while you attempt to solo the mob.
A bigger party would still be able to just overpower the mobs and remove you if needed.
What do you think, would this be too convoluted? Or maybe too "green-appeasing"?
I think it's just not necessary.
Ashes is designed for highly competitive, hardcore gamers who love the adrenaline rush of PvP.
Loving the adrenaline rush of PvP does not make one "highly competitive, hardcore gamer".
The other way arround might also not be always true. Those truly competitive would train and that would become routine.
Do you like adrenaline rush?
What triggers it in your case?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I cannot speak for EvE but, Lineage 2 and Archeage had protection system, in the form of the Karma System for L2 and Peace/War zone time cycles, so even "those gamers" are accustomed to a certain level of protection.
By protection system, I mean where mobs or NPCs are literally acting to protect the player - like NiKr proposed.
This statement is a bit too broad and general in my eyes, do you truly believe there are no pieces of design in Ashes that looks attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV lovers?
I didn't say that no pieces of design in Ashes look attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV.
That statement would be very specific, rather than broad.
So...
1: Yes. I am aware I made a generalization, rather than an absolute.
2: When I'm posting after a 10+ hours of work and 2 hours of dance class, I'm going to trust that most people here can comprehend the nuance based on the context of the discussion.
Though, it is, of course, always OK to ask for clarification.
In context - EQ, WoW and FFXIV have PvE-Only servers.
Any specific reason why? Even the ones that even tho good for them did not outweigh the other systems that made them choose not to play?
Here I'm, again, specifically referring to NiKr's proposal of adding a system where mobs actively "protecting" Greens from PvP. It's not necessary because the issue for those who have chosen not to play EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge is not about "protection". Protection is the wrong concept... and something that PvPers focus on because it typically implies that they will get to do more PvP as they "protect" PK victims.
Whereas non-PvPers really just want to be able to at least turn-off PvP flagging altogether...or play on a server where PvP is not even possible.
You can't really appease those players, anyway.
Yes. Lineage II had Karma. And Corruption is supposed to be even harsher than Karma. But, Corruption is not really going to entice people who refused to play Lineage II to play Ashes. And Intrepid doesn't need to add more systems than the original design already had in order to try to entice players who don't enjoy EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
Steven should continue to cater to his target audience - which is really EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge fans.
Loving the adrenaline rush of PvP does not make one "highly competitive, hardcore gamer".
The other way arround might also not be always true. Those truly competitive would train and that would become routine.
I disagree. Loving the adrenaline rush of PvP is hardcore and competitive - as opposed to casual and chill.
Steven believes that the adrenaline rush from PvP and risk reward vs other players is the best of the gaming experience and that those are the moments that are most memorable in MMORPGs.
One of the things Steven loves most when playing MMORPGs is griefing other players.
And, while, Steven and Margaret and the Intrepid devs are hoping most players won't play the way Steven used to... the games they love most are competitive games where they can pwn other gamers... and trash talk them while doing so.
Do you like adrenaline rush?
What triggers it in your case?
Momentary adrenaline rush can be OK in MMORPGs, but it's probably about as low as can be on my list of interests.
The adrenaline rush I like is when a mob casts Blind on me and I have to work a bit harder to not die while Blind. Or when a mob casts Fear on me and I have to try to make sure my avatar doesn't run off a cliff or into more mobs. Or when a bunch of ground telegraphs appear and I have to quickly maneuver a safe path away from damage. But, even Wildstar went way to crazy with the telegraph patterns for my liking.
Sure, when a game can momentarily get my physical body to duck and weave in a vain attempt to help my avatar escape from a dicey scenario, that can be fun... but that is far from the core of why I play MMORPGs.
I play MMORPGs to virtually experience the stories I read in Fantasy novels.
And adrenaline rush from competition with other people is not what entices me to read Fantasy novels.
Adrenaline rush from competition with other people is not what entices me to play RPGs.
The PvP I sometimes enjoy is city/town defense.
In Alpha 1, Castle Sieges were fun.
I expect Caravans and Node Sieges would also be fun.
Just not fun enough for me to play a game that also has permanent auto-flag (Combatant) PvP zones.
If I wanted the adrenaline rush from PvP, I would probably play an MMOFPS or a MOBA.
Not an MMORPG.
It can indeed happen that the game fails because the game pillars.
Should we worry and try to save it and change them?
For me the value of this game is because these design pillars and Steven saying that he will try making an MMO based on them even if other MMOs discarded them to favor profit.
I think we can highly promote and encourage interaction with those pillars, while still supporting several different gameplay styles. And that's kinda what Intrepid are already plan on doing.
It can indeed happen that the game fails because the game pillars.
Should we worry and try to save it and change them?
For me the value of this game is because these design pillars and Steven saying that he will try making an MMO based on them even if other MMOs discarded them to favor profit.
I think we can highly promote and encourage interaction with those pillars, while still supporting several different gameplay styles. And that's kinda what Intrepid are already plan on doing.
This isn't even a question, I think.
A player being told 'you can't progress down this path unless you engage in this content type' isn't weird. All you have to do is make sure that the players who want to progress path A also generally accept/like content-gate A that goes with it.
This is a 'matching game' problem, for most MMOs, not a content problem. There's almost always a way to match your content types to your paths, even within an MMO.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think we can highly promote and encourage interaction with those pillars, while still supporting several different gameplay styles. And that's kinda what Intrepid are already plan on doing.
I didn't say that no pieces of design in Ashes look attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV.
That statement would be very specific, rather than broad.
So...
1: Yes. I am aware I made a generalization, rather than an absolute.
2: When I'm posting after a 10+ hours of work and 2 hours of dance class, I'm going to trust that most people here can comprehend the nuance based on the context of the discussion.
Though, it is, of course, always OK to ask for clarification.
In context - EQ, WoW and FFXIV have PvE-Only servers.
Seems like i was a bit lacking in the nuance comprehension department after 48h without sleep.
Clarification is certainly welcome.
Now i see your phrase as "Ashes is not really designed for players who love EQ, WoW and FFXIV PvE-Only servers"
Yes. Lineage II had Karma. And Corruption is supposed to be even harsher than Karma. But, Corruption is not really going to entice people who refused to play Lineage II to play Ashes. And Intrepid doesn't need to add more systems than the original design already had in order to try to entice players who don't enjoy EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
Steven should continue to cater to his target audience - which is really EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge fans.
I have a question for you Dygz, do you believe the majority of WoW/FFXIV simple learned about the games PvP systems and refused to play Lineage 2/Archeage or were simple too occupied playing their respective games that share very similar release dates but higher populations and never even heard/learned/tested them to begin with?
Yes. Lineage II had Karma. And Corruption is supposed to be even harsher than Karma. But, Corruption is not really going to entice people who refused to play Lineage II to play Ashes. And Intrepid doesn't need to add more systems than the original design already had in order to try to entice players who don't enjoy EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
Steven should continue to cater to his target audience - which is really EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge fans.
I have a question for you Dygz, do you believe the majority of WoW/FFXIV simple learned about the games PvP systems and refused to play Lineage 2/Archeage or were simple too occupied playing their respective games that share very similar release dates but higher populations and never even heard/learned/tested them to begin with?
For me, personally, I'm going to go with I looked at the games, was already playing and vested in WoW, don't have time to play multiple MMOs, so stick with the one I'm playing, until the devs of that gave spit in my face by crapping all over their own game.
For me, personally, I'm going to go with I looked at the games, was already playing and vested in WoW, don't have time to play multiple MMOs, so stick with the one I'm playing, until the devs of that gave spit in my face by crapping all over their own game.
This is a mood
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have a question for you Dygz, do you believe the majority of WoW/FFXIV simple learned about the games PvP systems and refused to play Lineage 2/Archeage or were simple too occupied playing their respective games that share very similar release dates but higher populations and never even heard/learned/tested them to begin with?
Well...majority in that the majority of players play on PvE-Only servers.
When ArcheAge released, most WoW and EQ players were looking for a WoW killer.
I don't think there's really much to test when it comes to playing on the same servers with hardcore PvPers.
I traditionally start on PvP-Optional servers because I enjoy PvP sometimes. But it turns out that I hate playing with PvPers. I really don't like the "pwn" mentality of PvPers. I always eventually move to a PvE-Only server.
Back when EQNext broached the concept of no separate servers, I was vehemently against the idea.
Then I realized I have some gamer friends who love to play MMOFPS games, like Planetside 2. I think I would like to hang out with them on the same servers in an MMORPG. I became open to giving it a try. Even though I'm highly skeptical it can work.
As you know, I don't really need to test the Open Seas to know it's a deal-breaker for me, but...
I also have been paying more attention to how Steven describes his gameplay. I love Steven as a person, but I realize... I don't want to play on the same server he plays on. He's too hardcore competitive for me.
I've known Margaret for almost 10 years. She's an awesome person. Listening to her on the recent Livestreams, I realize I don't want to play on the same server she plays on - she is too hardcore competitive for me.
As I watched Margaret and some of the devs play games during ExtraLife, a few of the devs stated they would be trash-talking their opponents, but they couldn't really do that since their opponents were winning. I hate trash-talking. I don't want to play on the same servers as trash-talkers.
So... it's not really even just about systems and mechanics. It's not merely that I don't like PvP very much - I also don't like to play on the same servers as PvPers.
So... there is nothing really to test. And nothing really to learn.
It's just a matter of clashing playstyle tastes.
With Jeffrey Bard, from EQ/SoE/Daybreak, as the Lead Game Designer, and a bunch of other Daybreak devs, on the Intrepid team, I was expecting them to want to accomodate and "retain" those players who typically play EQ on PvE-Only servers (since they are the highest population) as well as those who play on PvP-Optional servers - where the PvP flag can be toggled off, similar to New World.
With Jeffrey Bard gone, I have no confidence that Steven knows how to appeal to those players. And, I think he basically just wants to appeal to the fans of EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
"We've always said Ashes isn't made for everyone."
And that's OK. It's just finally clear who the target audience is.
(Always fun having discussions with you, even when we disagree.
Clarifications are awesome!!)
As I watched Margaret and some of the devs play games during ExtraLife, a few of the devs stated they would be trash-talking their opponents, but they couldn't really do that since there opponents were winning.
Wait, you can't talk shit when you're losing? Oh lord I've been fuckin up this whole time.
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think that goes for the combat itself, too.
We'll see though.
Remember this is pre alpha 2, things aren't going to be all fully done yet. So it's a given incomplete things won't be perfect or not at their best with early development.
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think that goes for the combat itself, too.
We'll see though.
Remember this is pre alpha 2, things aren't going to be all fully done yet. So it's a given incomplete things won't be perfect or not at their best with early development.
I'm very much aware off that, I rather voice my concerns with continuity now when they're still taking feedback rather than a week from release.
I would like continuity in all things.
They have a list of systems they're going to have and even in a systems and tech perspective the combat they have now, doesn't have that.
The combat right now is the Flintstones and the rest of Verra is Dubai. So I just hope combat comes up to the levels of the technology, art, and sophistication to the rest of the proposed systems.
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think that goes for the combat itself, too.
We'll see though.
Remember this is pre alpha 2, things aren't going to be all fully done yet. So it's a given incomplete things won't be perfect or not at their best with early development.
I'm very much aware off that, I rather voice my concerns with continuity now when they're still taking feedback rather than a week from release.
I would like continuity in all things.
They have a list of systems they're going to have and even in a systems and tech perspective the combat they have now, doesn't have that.
The combat right now is the Flintstones and the rest of Verra is Dubai. So I just hope combat comes up to the levels of the technology, art, and sophistication to the rest of the proposed systems.
What exactly are you critiquing on continuity like some direct examples and points since this sounds kind of vague to me?
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think that goes for the combat itself, too.
We'll see though.
Remember this is pre alpha 2, things aren't going to be all fully done yet. So it's a given incomplete things won't be perfect or not at their best with early development.
I'm very much aware off that, I rather voice my concerns with continuity now when they're still taking feedback rather than a week from release.
I would like continuity in all things.
They have a list of systems they're going to have and even in a systems and tech perspective the combat they have now, doesn't have that.
The combat right now is the Flintstones and the rest of Verra is Dubai. So I just hope combat comes up to the levels of the technology, art, and sophistication to the rest of the proposed systems.
What exactly are you critiquing on continuity like some direct examples and points since this sounds kind of vague to me?
Their art, animations, and combat as it relates to the UI/UX.
So, my issues with Intrepid are what I consider minor, and this goes to show how much I love what Intrepid is doing here, theres usually a lot more serious issues that I, as a player have with games and developers, so I'm really happy these are the only ones that come to mind:
- I don't like that they are selling freehold buildings and ships without a Clear description of which freehold goes in which building type or which ship type. The whole cosmetic thing is Really confusing, they say costumes are one piece only, but during live streams, Steven will swap and mix cosmetic set pieces, they sell a mount barding accessory but Months later say you can't use it on top of a cosmetic mount skin........ they say you can't dye your cosmetics, even tho they show recolors (that weren't even supposed to be available for players, only for NPCs but well....) they sell accessories that can't be used with costumes... it just makes Zero sense and it's very very badly thought out, seems like they just don't care about it.
- I don't like that they closed their official content creator program Before the first Alpha One started, and it's been over 18 months since they opened the applications for the new content creator program, but they still haven't started inviting people in because apparently, they decided to create a new program to train content creators and hired someone for that(?)
- I don't like when we are in 5+ years in development and they still want to ask for feedback about stamina, races, or basic stuff that should already be decided, I hope this is not the case, but it appears that they are not confident in what they can do, and want to make feedback driven decisions from players... players that don't know what they want, I think most if not all people that are unhappy about something will always complain, while the large majority that is happy won't even bother saying it, so I worry about these decisions and whom they are trying to please. I trust Intrepid to make a good game, I don't trust the playerbase, people are more often than not, really stupid.
I think that's it... overall, I'm really happy and positive about the future of AoC and the game design, which is the most important.
Well said friend. I have seen many a game that got delayed or side tracked and even ruined by listening to a bunch of cry babes about trivial crap that the modding community can fix.
I know it's standard for this genre, I don't like how zoomed out the camera is. Makes the whole experience feel so disconnected and impersonal - like I'm playing with pawns on a game board rather than controlling a character in a fantasy world.
I could choose to zoom in, but then everyone else will have a massive advantage over me in PvP, and I'll be hurting my team in PvE, so it's not actually an option if I want to engage with like 90% of the game's content.
For me, personally, I'm going to go with I looked at the games, was already playing and vested in WoW, don't have time to play multiple MMOs, so stick with the one I'm playing, until the devs of that gave spit in my face by crapping all over their own game.
So, my issues with Intrepid are what I consider minor, and this goes to show how much I love what Intrepid is doing here, theres usually a lot more serious issues that I, as a player have with games and developers, so I'm really happy these are the only ones that come to mind:
- I don't like that they are selling freehold buildings and ships without a Clear description of which freehold goes in which building type or which ship type. The whole cosmetic thing is Really confusing, they say costumes are one piece only, but during live streams, Steven will swap and mix cosmetic set pieces, they sell a mount barding accessory but Months later say you can't use it on top of a cosmetic mount skin........ they say you can't dye your cosmetics, even tho they show recolors (that weren't even supposed to be available for players, only for NPCs but well....) they sell accessories that can't be used with costumes... it just makes Zero sense and it's very very badly thought out, seems like they just don't care about it.
- I don't like that they closed their official content creator program Before the first Alpha One started, and it's been over 18 months since they opened the applications for the new content creator program, but they still haven't started inviting people in because apparently, they decided to create a new program to train content creators and hired someone for that(?)
- I don't like when we are in 5+ years in development and they still want to ask for feedback about stamina, races, or basic stuff that should already be decided, I hope this is not the case, but it appears that they are not confident in what they can do, and want to make feedback driven decisions from players... players that don't know what they want, I think most if not all people that are unhappy about something will always complain, while the large majority that is happy won't even bother saying it, so I worry about these decisions and whom they are trying to please. I trust Intrepid to make a good game, I don't trust the playerbase, people are more often than not, really stupid.
I think that's it... overall, I'm really happy and positive about the future of AoC and the game design, which is the most important.
Well said friend. I have seen many a game that got delayed or side tracked and even ruined by listening to a bunch of cry babes about trivial crap that the modding community can fix.
@TheWisendorf modding community cannot fix this game. Addons and macros are not allowed. The developers do not want addons/mods to be necessary to experience the game.[3]
Also I think the delays are not caused by players. Even to say there are delays is hard if one doesn't know the plan.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I know it's standard for this genre, I don't like how zoomed out the camera is. Makes the whole experience feel so disconnected and impersonal - like I'm playing with pawns on a game board rather than controlling a character in a fantasy world.
I could choose to zoom in, but then everyone else will have a massive advantage over me in PvP, and I'll be hurting my team in PvE, so it's not actually an option if I want to engage with like 90% of the game's content.
steven enjoys his gameplay ZOOMED OUT. You can control what zoom u want. But what u r seeing is his preference.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
I know it's standard for this genre, I don't like how zoomed out the camera is. Makes the whole experience feel so disconnected and impersonal - like I'm playing with pawns on a game board rather than controlling a character in a fantasy world.
I could choose to zoom in, but then everyone else will have a massive advantage over me in PvP, and I'll be hurting my team in PvE, so it's not actually an option if I want to engage with like 90% of the game's content.
steven enjoys his gameplay ZOOMED OUT. You can control what zoom u want. But what u r seeing is his preference.
He says you can zoom in.
What he is complain and wants is players unable to control zoom and forcing you into a certain view. I'd have no issue with that as long as there were some controls but that wont happen in any mmorpg. Players get to control and do what they want with the camera.
My main concern is that the game will be entirely obsolete by the time it releases. At the time of its original announcement, AoC felt amazing. For me, the concept of a well blended PvE / PvP world with appropriate content for all players, a structure to encourage community and teamwork while still leaving room for specialists and lone wolves seemed amazing. But now we have it, its called Albion Online - albeit with some rather poor graphics. Already, we see the AoC concept is obsolete - now the only way to be distinguished is via graphics, which, thankfully, UE5 is amazing.
To continue...
At this point, it feels like Intrepid is more in love with the development process itself, than with the delivery of a finished product. As any creative can tell you, it never really is a finished product - the creative process is always ongoing. But, the focus has to be on that delivery, rather than the process itself.
Unfortunately, Intrepid has found a way to sustain itself financially, while at the same time delving ever deeper into the creative process. As someone else mentioned, asking which races should be in game? Asking questions about fundamental game designs 5+ years into the process is not appropriate, from a delivery perspective. And the unfortunate thing is that the very people who most look forward to enjoying AoC, are the very people who are both enabling this sustainability - and suffering from the ever more distant perspective of actually playing.
Perhaps people would rather anticipate perfection, than have something imperfect. But, to me, I see folks who really believe in AoC and are essentially fueling an addict's desire for a never ending design phase by purchasing stuff that isn't even real yet, and perhaps, may never be - or may be simply obsolete or boring by the time things actually get released.
So its like, I feel really bad for the folks buying all these costumes, houses, and stuff, all to support a game run by a "glorious" company that seems to have absolutely no focus in terms of delivering a finished product.
But why should they? With a steady income stream grows every time they figure out something else to future-sell you guys, and you all ready and willing to pay for dreams and promises, there's no business reason to ever finish the game - they would lose money on release.
Comments
Ashes is designed for highly competitive, hardcore gamers who love the adrenaline rush of PvP.
I play RPGs to emulate the Fantasy novels I read. And those Fantasy novels are about diverse people coming together to defeat a major threat - not the competition of who can defeat the threat first and gain all the loot.
To me, the server should be focused on cooperating to put an end to the Perpetual Winter that will remain in effect until the Winter Dragon is defeated; rather than trying to kill any "rival" player who might gain all the loot from the Winter Dragon.
WoW: Dragonflight is providing exactly the experience I've been craving - where both the Horde and the Alliance work together to defeat the common threat(s) during World Quests. And, since I'm on a PvE-Only server, PvP is barely even a possibility... I can completely ignore PvP.
I don't want to have to feel like I need protection from other players while I'm striving to defeat mobs.
PvPers think of "protection" from PvP - typically in the form of players who act as Anti-PvPer mercenaries. I think Non-Combatant PvEers are not really interested in mobs "protecting" them from PvP or other players "protecting" them from PvP.
The concept of removing competition from farming areas is not at all appealing to me. Quite the opposite.
Defending Caravans is appealing. Siege Defense is appealing.
Removing rival players from an area because Land Management dictates that depleted resources will trigger an Environmental Catastrophe is appealing. Where the focus of PvP is on the health of the region/Node; not pwning other players.
Ashes is designed for gamers who love EvE Online, Lineage II and ArcheAge. I think those gamers don't need a protection system.
Ashes is not really designed for players who love EQ, WoW and FFXIV. And I think the devs probably should not add systems to try to appeal to the players who have chosen not to play EvE Online, Lineage II and ArcheAge. Ashes is not designed for everyone. And that's OK.
I cannot speak for EvE but, Lineage 2 and Archeage had protection system, in the form of the Karma System for L2 and Peace/War zone time cycles, so even "those gamers" are accustomed to a certain level of protection.
This statement is a bit too broad and general in my eyes, do you truly believe there are no pieces of design in Ashes that looks attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV lovers?
Any specific reason why? Even the ones that even tho good for them did not outweigh the other systems that made them choose not to play?
Aren't we all sinners?
Loving the adrenaline rush of PvP does not make one "highly competitive, hardcore gamer".
The other way arround might also not be always true. Those truly competitive would train and that would become routine.
Do you like adrenaline rush?
What triggers it in your case?
I didn't say that no pieces of design in Ashes look attractive to any EQ, WoW and FFXIV.
That statement would be very specific, rather than broad.
So...
1: Yes. I am aware I made a generalization, rather than an absolute.
2: When I'm posting after a 10+ hours of work and 2 hours of dance class, I'm going to trust that most people here can comprehend the nuance based on the context of the discussion.
Though, it is, of course, always OK to ask for clarification.
In context - EQ, WoW and FFXIV have PvE-Only servers.
Here I'm, again, specifically referring to NiKr's proposal of adding a system where mobs actively "protecting" Greens from PvP. It's not necessary because the issue for those who have chosen not to play EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge is not about "protection". Protection is the wrong concept... and something that PvPers focus on because it typically implies that they will get to do more PvP as they "protect" PK victims.
Whereas non-PvPers really just want to be able to at least turn-off PvP flagging altogether...or play on a server where PvP is not even possible.
You can't really appease those players, anyway.
Yes. Lineage II had Karma. And Corruption is supposed to be even harsher than Karma. But, Corruption is not really going to entice people who refused to play Lineage II to play Ashes. And Intrepid doesn't need to add more systems than the original design already had in order to try to entice players who don't enjoy EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
Steven should continue to cater to his target audience - which is really EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge fans.
"Real one" sounds like a pretty rad title.
Maybe we'll get to find out
Steven believes that the adrenaline rush from PvP and risk reward vs other players is the best of the gaming experience and that those are the moments that are most memorable in MMORPGs.
One of the things Steven loves most when playing MMORPGs is griefing other players.
And, while, Steven and Margaret and the Intrepid devs are hoping most players won't play the way Steven used to... the games they love most are competitive games where they can pwn other gamers... and trash talk them while doing so.
Momentary adrenaline rush can be OK in MMORPGs, but it's probably about as low as can be on my list of interests.
The adrenaline rush I like is when a mob casts Blind on me and I have to work a bit harder to not die while Blind. Or when a mob casts Fear on me and I have to try to make sure my avatar doesn't run off a cliff or into more mobs. Or when a bunch of ground telegraphs appear and I have to quickly maneuver a safe path away from damage. But, even Wildstar went way to crazy with the telegraph patterns for my liking.
Sure, when a game can momentarily get my physical body to duck and weave in a vain attempt to help my avatar escape from a dicey scenario, that can be fun... but that is far from the core of why I play MMORPGs.
I play MMORPGs to virtually experience the stories I read in Fantasy novels.
And adrenaline rush from competition with other people is not what entices me to read Fantasy novels.
Adrenaline rush from competition with other people is not what entices me to play RPGs.
The PvP I sometimes enjoy is city/town defense.
In Alpha 1, Castle Sieges were fun.
I expect Caravans and Node Sieges would also be fun.
Just not fun enough for me to play a game that also has permanent auto-flag (Combatant) PvP zones.
If I wanted the adrenaline rush from PvP, I would probably play an MMOFPS or a MOBA.
Not an MMORPG.
This isn't even a question, I think.
A player being told 'you can't progress down this path unless you engage in this content type' isn't weird. All you have to do is make sure that the players who want to progress path A also generally accept/like content-gate A that goes with it.
This is a 'matching game' problem, for most MMOs, not a content problem. There's almost always a way to match your content types to your paths, even within an MMO.
Thankfully higher wisdom prevailed or we would have been stuck with the quick time combat lol.
A misinterpretation in my part i suppose. maybe i was expecting to read "such protection system" instead of "a protection system" in the phrase.
Seems like i was a bit lacking in the nuance comprehension department after 48h without sleep.
Clarification is certainly welcome.
Now i see your phrase as "Ashes is not really designed for players who love EQ, WoW and FFXIV PvE-Only servers"
I have a question for you Dygz, do you believe the majority of WoW/FFXIV simple learned about the games PvP systems and refused to play Lineage 2/Archeage or were simple too occupied playing their respective games that share very similar release dates but higher populations and never even heard/learned/tested them to begin with?
Aren't we all sinners?
For me, personally, I'm going to go with I looked at the games, was already playing and vested in WoW, don't have time to play multiple MMOs, so stick with the one I'm playing, until the devs of that gave spit in my face by crapping all over their own game.
This is a mood
When ArcheAge released, most WoW and EQ players were looking for a WoW killer.
I don't think there's really much to test when it comes to playing on the same servers with hardcore PvPers.
I traditionally start on PvP-Optional servers because I enjoy PvP sometimes. But it turns out that I hate playing with PvPers. I really don't like the "pwn" mentality of PvPers. I always eventually move to a PvE-Only server.
Back when EQNext broached the concept of no separate servers, I was vehemently against the idea.
Then I realized I have some gamer friends who love to play MMOFPS games, like Planetside 2. I think I would like to hang out with them on the same servers in an MMORPG. I became open to giving it a try. Even though I'm highly skeptical it can work.
As you know, I don't really need to test the Open Seas to know it's a deal-breaker for me, but...
I also have been paying more attention to how Steven describes his gameplay. I love Steven as a person, but I realize... I don't want to play on the same server he plays on. He's too hardcore competitive for me.
I've known Margaret for almost 10 years. She's an awesome person. Listening to her on the recent Livestreams, I realize I don't want to play on the same server she plays on - she is too hardcore competitive for me.
As I watched Margaret and some of the devs play games during ExtraLife, a few of the devs stated they would be trash-talking their opponents, but they couldn't really do that since their opponents were winning. I hate trash-talking. I don't want to play on the same servers as trash-talkers.
So... it's not really even just about systems and mechanics. It's not merely that I don't like PvP very much - I also don't like to play on the same servers as PvPers.
So... there is nothing really to test. And nothing really to learn.
It's just a matter of clashing playstyle tastes.
With Jeffrey Bard, from EQ/SoE/Daybreak, as the Lead Game Designer, and a bunch of other Daybreak devs, on the Intrepid team, I was expecting them to want to accomodate and "retain" those players who typically play EQ on PvE-Only servers (since they are the highest population) as well as those who play on PvP-Optional servers - where the PvP flag can be toggled off, similar to New World.
With Jeffrey Bard gone, I have no confidence that Steven knows how to appeal to those players. And, I think he basically just wants to appeal to the fans of EvE, Lineage II and ArcheAge.
"We've always said Ashes isn't made for everyone."
And that's OK. It's just finally clear who the target audience is.
(Always fun having discussions with you, even when we disagree.
Clarifications are awesome!!)
Aren't we all sinners?
I appreciate the constructive criticisms and keeping discussions civil and polite with one another, and even towards us here at Intrepid Studios
📝👀
Wait, you can't talk shit when you're losing? Oh lord I've been fuckin up this whole time.
I think I have to stress how important continuity and consistency in the games art through all of the UI/UX is. Because after watching that I can see where it drops off. From the colors chosen and the animations themselves, it just doesn't flow harmoniously with the rest of the world. Its immersion destroying, even.
I think that goes for the combat itself, too.
We'll see though.
Remember this is pre alpha 2, things aren't going to be all fully done yet. So it's a given incomplete things won't be perfect or not at their best with early development.
I'm very much aware off that, I rather voice my concerns with continuity now when they're still taking feedback rather than a week from release.
I would like continuity in all things.
They have a list of systems they're going to have and even in a systems and tech perspective the combat they have now, doesn't have that.
The combat right now is the Flintstones and the rest of Verra is Dubai. So I just hope combat comes up to the levels of the technology, art, and sophistication to the rest of the proposed systems.
What exactly are you critiquing on continuity like some direct examples and points since this sounds kind of vague to me?
Their art, animations, and combat as it relates to the UI/UX.
Well said friend. I have seen many a game that got delayed or side tracked and even ruined by listening to a bunch of cry babes about trivial crap that the modding community can fix.
I could choose to zoom in, but then everyone else will have a massive advantage over me in PvP, and I'll be hurting my team in PvE, so it's not actually an option if I want to engage with like 90% of the game's content.
An endless mood
@TheWisendorf modding community cannot fix this game. Addons and macros are not allowed.
The developers do not want addons/mods to be necessary to experience the game.[3]
Also I think the delays are not caused by players. Even to say there are delays is hard if one doesn't know the plan.
steven enjoys his gameplay ZOOMED OUT. You can control what zoom u want. But what u r seeing is his preference.
He says you can zoom in.
What he is complain and wants is players unable to control zoom and forcing you into a certain view. I'd have no issue with that as long as there were some controls but that wont happen in any mmorpg. Players get to control and do what they want with the camera.
To continue...
At this point, it feels like Intrepid is more in love with the development process itself, than with the delivery of a finished product. As any creative can tell you, it never really is a finished product - the creative process is always ongoing. But, the focus has to be on that delivery, rather than the process itself.
Unfortunately, Intrepid has found a way to sustain itself financially, while at the same time delving ever deeper into the creative process. As someone else mentioned, asking which races should be in game? Asking questions about fundamental game designs 5+ years into the process is not appropriate, from a delivery perspective. And the unfortunate thing is that the very people who most look forward to enjoying AoC, are the very people who are both enabling this sustainability - and suffering from the ever more distant perspective of actually playing.
Perhaps people would rather anticipate perfection, than have something imperfect. But, to me, I see folks who really believe in AoC and are essentially fueling an addict's desire for a never ending design phase by purchasing stuff that isn't even real yet, and perhaps, may never be - or may be simply obsolete or boring by the time things actually get released.
So its like, I feel really bad for the folks buying all these costumes, houses, and stuff, all to support a game run by a "glorious" company that seems to have absolutely no focus in terms of delivering a finished product.
But why should they? With a steady income stream grows every time they figure out something else to future-sell you guys, and you all ready and willing to pay for dreams and promises, there's no business reason to ever finish the game - they would lose money on release.