What can we learn from the phenomenon of Classic WoW Hardcore?

Arya_Yeshe · April 2023

Kilion wrote: »

Add to that the fact that Ashes requires change and perma death in a game that encourages people to take their time every step of the way through horizontal progression, trial and error, that ultimately requires massive scale breaking of the current situation through huge PvP sieges (meaning giant amount of perma deaths) and that allows for PKs even of low level players through higher level players, neither permadeath nor log in timers after death would make sense for Ashes.

The only three things this shows in my opinon are: (1) risk motivates people who love to play daredevil style, (2) the love of this mode amongst streamers means they are almost the only ones with the time to commit to building back up after death and (3) there are no more interesting MMORPGs out there to play and watch so modding old ones is the only solution next to just letting the genre rest (for now).

People are looking for thrilling experiences in a game, WoW is just there as a popular really well made and safe game that can receive addons. Classic WoW hardcore is like a thermometer showing what is going on within the community beyond the corporate burecrauts eyes, later on Blizzard wrote in the code a hardcore flag and possibly we will have hardcore servers

Ashes could have permadeath, it doesn't have to be with the main character, it could be maybe with hireable NPCs, they would have lots of limitations tough. Maybe you could hire npc mercenaries, fully control them and if they die, they die... some game have playable companions like that

Diamaht · April 2023

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Hmm.. perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought Arya meant "punishing" deaths (which is a thing in AoC) - and I agree death should be punishing - I did not read it as necessarily permadeath (which I really don't think should be a thing in regular mmo play - that is a lobby game thing).

Yeah the Hardcore wow stuff he is refering to, means you are finished when you die and need to start over with a new level one.

Noaani · April 2023

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

People are dying non-stop in WoW hardcore for the dumbest reasons!! LOL
Blizzard didn't change anything in the game (for now), everything is default

This is proof that people have been playing the game like zombies for years is dying carelessly and indifferent to consequences of any kind... Now, this just shows that the lack of incentive for staying alive has made them bad at the game. In hardcore people are feeling alive and having fun

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

About streamers, everything I said about hardcore is validated by the streamers, since it is the streamers who know that this is fun and people will like this. Even I LMAO just by seeing people running and jumping around and then falling from a bridge and dying for no reason... it is hilarious. If this wasn't hardcore, I wouldn't have laughed hysterically

They know it is fun, they have a public to appease to, also the streamers themselves sometimes are on the edge playing wow hardcore.They streaming this is just proof

As a streamer, in a frustrating genre, this is not even remotely how this works.

One thing you hear from people who watch Fighting Game streams a lot is that they watch because they can't play.

Playing is too frustrating, the game is too hard, the mindsets required are too strict. What they want is to watch someone who has already mastered all those things. This goes for so many sports, not even for just streaming. Football, MMA, the people watching these are not watching 'because they would find those sports fun to play', they watch it because it is fun to watch.

I think you just explained to me why I have never found watching game streaming enjoyable.

Vaknar · April 2023

To me, one of the coolest things about hardcore communities in MMOs, like OSRS or WoW, is that it is a grassroots movement, similar to many (or perhaps most) Esports communities.

I look forward to seeing how and what our players will create from a grassroots origin, and how we (the community team and devs) can interact with those creations

Kilion · April 2023

This might be a fun mod for some entertainers to show because from all I have read this is mainly fun to watch.

But for Ashes this system is basically as unfeasible as a full loot option on player death.

Arya_Yeshe · April 2023

Kilion wrote: »

This might be a fun mod for some entertainers to show because from all I have read this is mainly fun to watch.

But for Ashes this system is basically as unfeasible as a full loot option on player death.

Have you never played any hardcore?
Even a single player game if it's hardcore or roguelike, it is a thrill

Streamers stream it because they know it is fun, if it was boring nobody would stream
Streamers constantly admit that streaming grinds is exausting and boring for them and for the viewers

Hardcore is top quality stuff and fun, even in single player games is fun

In AoC, hardcore would be feasible for the hired NPCs, specially if you can upgrade these companions and play with them. Also, who knows, in the future a hardcore server could be a thing. In hardcore servers most people have a work alt making gold and the pvp alt that will always die horribly

Arya_Yeshe · April 2023

Blizzard CEO bringing an official Hardcore mode to discussion!

That's the reality of things, in the past only a few people considered having a more meaninful experience in a game, these people were seen as outcasts in their own niche

Dying in PvP is fine, but I wonder how Blizzard will deal with the terrifying and scary PvE griefing

The same thing can happen to Ashes of Creation, people will ask for a more meaninful experience and PvE griefing will stand in it's way, this is very serious

Noaani · April 2023

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

The same thing can happen to Ashes of Creation, people will ask for a more meaninful experience and PvE griefing will stand in it's way, this is very serious

WoW by its design is a meaningless game - even as far as gaming goes.

Player action has no meaning, player interaction has no meaning.

In Ashes, with no dungeon finder, player interaction is already more meaningful than everything in WoW combined. On top of that, players can meaningfully alter the game world.

People playing Ashes are not going to be asking for a more meaningful gaming experience.

Nikbis · April 2023

I'm more of a slow paced player, yet I would welcome a handful of hardcore servers.
I can see myself hopping into one of them once in a while just for the sheer thrill.

It only adds to the game, unlike PvE servers that would strip parts of it.

Sathrago · April 2023

I just wanted to butt in and say something important about what hardcore classic really adds to a game like wow.

It adds churn. Churn meaning a massive sink in the form of death. This sink brings with it the risk vs reward meaning many people have gotten numb to over the years with the standard wow formula. Hc wow cant really get old because it's going to eventually reset your progress. You can always be progressing in it. If you mess up you can try something different.

Comparing it to ashes of creations system, they both are designed to create this churn. Now obviously there are major differences between the two. In hc wow you lose everything when you die, in ashes you lose a significant amount of progress. In hc wow there is no economy until you hit lvl 60 by necessity. In aoc it's obviously from level 1.

I still think that the comparison is valid and a closer representation in modern gaming of the potential churn has for games.

Fantmx · April 2023

I think it just means people are getting really bored of what they have access to at this point.

BlackBrony · April 2023

Wow hc is bs. It's eating the same food, but now you don't use cutlery. But people refuse to move over it because it's the only thing they know. Most people never played more than wow, just like many don't play more than lol.
Are they gamers? Sure, but they breadth of experience is so limited is like asking a child if Avatar the last airbender is a good movie when they only saw that movie in their entire life.
HC brings nothing to the table, except more min maxing and knowing every little tiny detail. The game is the same, still dull, still boring.

Okeydoke · April 2023

I was watching Summit play hc wow last night. I think it's awesome. But we're talking about a 20 year old game, that people LOVE, but some are growing bored of in spite of themselves. Hardcore mode is a natural progression of that situation.

To the OP's point, what it tells us is that yes high stakes situations are exciting. And low stakes is more boring. Permadeath is not something I'd want in games, but higher stakes, even just medium stakes, more risk vs reward etc, there's a market for it. And it makes games a lot more fun to play and to watch.

What can we learn from the phenomenon of Classic WoW Hardcore?

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