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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Well, thanks for clearing that right up.
The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.
'We have to move. It's not safe here.'
As far as someone who is trying to become an expert I also don't feel time played is relevant. Everyone learns at different speeds. Some people can see something only once and remember it for the rest of time. Others not so much. If someone has 100 hours in game but can answer every single question with 100% accuracy would we not consider them an expert because they only have 100 hours? I feel like some of us content creators and Ashes community members could already be considered experts as we live and breath Ashes, consume every piece of content released and live on the Ashes wiki. So as far as knowledge goes experts already exist.
When it comes to player skills and gameplay how do we measure an expert? Surely we wouldn't rely only on hours played. We would look to stats and achievements. WoW has warcraftlogs. Shooters have metrics. Mobas have ranks and statistics. What will Ashes have? Warcraftlogs are able to tell us how long a player stood in bad, how long they held onto cooldowns, did they pop a defensive before they died, are they using proper consumables at the proper times, is their DPS competitive. It also tracks history and what they have achieved. Its really quite simple to tell a skilled player from an unskilled one. A player that excels in all these things in every combat scenario would be considered an expert. But is that really a time commitment thing? Some players will be able to pick up this game day 1 and be better than most in terms of skills. And if one of these prodigies are also one of these people that consumes all things Ashes up until the day it launches then you would have a day 1 expert would we not?
So all in all I don't think the title "Expert" should be guarded behind some time requirement as I see so many responders saying it should. Obviously someone who has thousands of hours in MMOs and consumes all things Ashes will have an advantage. But there is always someone who is smarter and better. So just make the best game you can with adequate difficulty and lets see who emerges on top. The testers wont let the game launch with hand holdy super easy achievements and content I'm sure. And as long as Intrepid is listening Ashes will provide a great challenge.
Oh I understand, you personally are just trying to get a sense of the community not the dev team this time? That makes sense. You might want to change the header on the opening post in that case though.
If you meant that it was the dev team wanting this conversation though, you might want to give us more direction as to why given how far in the development process IS is to this question or people might get the impression that the dev team is way further behind than they actually are in development.
Oh, is this a situation where we can watch/link an Asmongold video segment for context, then?
Because if we can at least use whatever Asmon was using as the 'definition' of 'expert', we might get somewhere... hopefully I wasn't too far off in all my own stuff.
This will be a pvx game so taking that into account I would say
Casual: +3 hours a day
Hardcore: +8 hours a day
Game knowledge
Casual: +100 hours
Hardcore: +2000 hours
This is probably what the difference would be based on my expirience in other games and my knowledge of AoC systems.
But also if you want to be a specialist in some area of the game I would say +5000 hours to be like the best at something very specific like Arena.
"Expert" can indeed be a subjective term. I think your example of what makes an expert to you is a good example of how we all can interpret this word differently!
This response makes me think you do totally get the why of the question
I think your example here of muscle memory is very interesting! Especially with combat. Also, the idea that perhaps "Expert" has no ceiling at all (if that is what you meant by "100 hours to never, depending on the person."
Nvm on that then, AlphaCala, doesn't seem like this is related in that way, at least for answering (therefore I won't derail by linking the Asmon thing).
That's not what I said
The goal here is for us, the community, to give our thoughts and opinions on the topic - which is time dedication. Conversations happening in Dev Discussions often assist the team in understanding opinions, biases, preferences, etc.
Perhaps I can reiterate the question for you: What does being an expert or a casual mean to you? What are the differences you see in casual vs expert-level play on a day-to-day basis in your favorite MMORPGs?
Time:
Casual players would play around 6 hours a week at maximum. Experts would fall between double to triple that number depending on the complexity of a game.
Skill:
Skill expression in a casual player are strictly technical. They know or are learning their rotation and are familiar with skill shots they need to land. They are on their own merits good at what game wants their role to perform and nothing more.
Skill expression with an expert should be observed in being able to play around others of varying skills effectively. They're able to use their skills to turn a bad situation to one where their team has a chance to succeed.
Knowledge:
Casual players knowledge should be strictly driven by first person experience. Expert players should have learned how their abilities interact with both allies and enemies (and their skills.) This knowledge should then be leveraged in how they play (skill above) to turn the tides of a fight.
Side Note: I find it difficult in most games to have game knowledge be as impactful as skill which I always lament. So, if you can do this I would be excited.
Interesting to see the associate of casual and expert play with a specific amount of time dedicated!
I think your definitions of skill expression for casual play vs expert are very intruiging. I could see this applying to many different games beyond just MMORPGs!
If you feel that the Asmongold video is relevant to the topic (time dedication, or of casual and expert experiences) then I don't think it would derail the thread
Looping this comment into the thread; how do you feel expert and casual experience should play a factor in mass PvP?
Time spend versus ROI is something I'm really interested in within all the games I play because I really enjoy spending time to improve myself in games. However, there's a fine line between time spend being rewarding and being mandatory and/or tedious. Definitely a topic I'd love to discuss more directly in the future.
I don't personally think it would contribute. I was looking for a definition of 'expert' to try to meet the Devs' expectations since I don't know anyone who thinks in those terms, particularly not for MMOs.
If the topic is about 'understanding what posters here use for their definitions' then at least to me, the video doesn't seem relevant.
As for me, I feel like I provided what was asked, in that case, though I'd definitely like to underscore that I only gave numbers because I couldn't even imagine what the purpose of the question was. The numbers don't mean much. I suppose in the more specific examples (Sevarog, Soft Power stuff, and the amount of time it takes to learn your combos in something like Under Night), they're at least 'accurate' as I perceive them, but all those things are multipliers too. Sevarog takes time because Sevarog is their 'most difficult' Hero to play.
I guess I can add a counterexample from Under-Night, though that's a fighting game.
The amount of time I needed to be very competent was 1 hour. This is because the game's systems are so fluid and well designed that I can intuitively make up combos as needed by just being accurate enough and understanding some basics. Expertise in that game borders on 'battle judgement only' once you gel with a character.
This is how I experience MMOs. TL is like this for me, and so is BDO, combat wise. I don't have to 'practice' Kunoichi or Wand/Daggers, they're smooth and incredibly intuitive, so I 'skip straight to advanced level'. At that point, Time Dedication becomes a factor only relative to 'did I get enough strong gear'/'did I practice enough high damage combos'. The latter is sort of 'expertise' for sure, the former is sometimes that, sometimes not.
I think players sometimes try to diminish others who don't have enough time/luck to get the gear to keep up with the top percentiles, but defining 'expertise' by 'current top percentile performance' seems bad to me, for an MMO, since that would make some botters 'experts'.
Much love
Ah I see, I think I came to the wrong conclusion due to the use of your profile pic and the lack of clarity but I think I'm picking up what you are putting down. My apologies then Vaknar, that sounds like you are in a position I don't envy.
Some individuals are natural savants at certain things, especially after having decades of experience in that avenue. Had I never picked up a video game in my life, it'd take me a considerable amount of time to really become an expert at a video game for the first time. Some people invest 12+ hours a day, others maybe a few hours every other day.
I've also played FFXIV for hundreds of hours, and I've learned the basic dps/healing/tank rotations, but I haven't for every single class available. Despite having invested -so- much time into the game, there are still certain boss fights which are extremely calculated that I haven't learned. Despite having maxed crafting and maybe 60% of the classes maxed out, I still don't consider myself an expert. Maybe I'd consider myself a hardcore expert if I completed the ultimate challenges that XIV offers.
Bottom line, you can be an expert in a game within certain avenues, such as the lore, crafting, pvp, pve, etc, rather than just an expert of all of a game overall.
Click here to visit Snow elf's Twitch channel
Haha, I forgot that this was my profile pic! I actually have had this profile pic since last summer, I believe! I didn't think it might confuse. I just thought it looked cool 🥺
Phew there is a lot to unpack here. let me see if I can organize my thoughts for a good enough response.
"Expert" and "Casual" can be subjective terms. What does being an expert or a casual mean to you?
Being a casual at a game and specifically an MMO has always meant to me that you are unable to commit the time it requires to progress and complete the content that the community at large is defining as the bleeding edge. I also would not consider an "Expert" the opposite of a casual. I'd call that more of a "hardcore" gamer instead. Casuals are going to be unable to gear to the max quickly, they understand that they will miss the hardest and most challenging content as it becomes popular, or some combination of that. They might not have a whole lot of hours to play so they have to plan carefully. I was able to raid in some MMO's as a casual by making sure I had raid nights free. But then again some might call that Hardcore just because I was able to login every day. It's all so subjective.
The counter point to that is as a hardcore gamer, I would expect to see them having SO much more play time. They are the ones getting max gear fast, making sure that they understand not just their own class, but the other classes and how to counter them, or maybe they are leveling multiple characters, or they dove into the nitty gritty of some sub system of the game and are an expert on that, and also doing everything else in the game.
I think that the overall point I wanted to make here is:
You can be a casual OR hardcore and still be an "Expert" in some things pertaining to the game.
What are the differences you see in casual vs expert-level play on a day-to-day basis in your favorite MMORPGs?
Again I am going to separate this into Casual / Hardcore and do Expert as an aside.
Casual level play in most MMO's really comes down to what you can do in your limited hours of play. Run a few dailies, Queue for some arena matches w/ the boys, participate in a raid on the alliance home towns because your guild has been talking about it for a few weeks, or just spend some time leveling a class or working on a profession. It's gonna take a while, but you are enjoying the game at your own pace.
For the Hardcore players, they are able to do these exact same things, but they have the benefit of a much longer time commitment. They will learn systems faster then the casuals at first, they will have the characters at max first, they can afford to spend the time and dedication to the game to earn the title of a hardcore player and it almost always shows by looking at gear or achievements in game, or at how fast they got them. Hardcore players are doing or using a lot more of the systems that a game has to offer usually.
Being an "Expert" is also about time, but it's not exactly tied to being a casual or a Hardcore player. If I spend all my time in game on a crafting class and I know all the ins and outs of that class, Maybe I wrote macros, or play guides on other sites, the community would probably call that person an "Expert" at that class. But then that same person goes o to play a PVP event and well, now we can all see that you are clearly not investing as much time as everyone else on this side of the content of the game and you'd probably get called a casual. Nothing wrong with that, but it does show that overtime, a hardcore player would become an Expert at more of the game, while the casuals CAN still be experts at certain parts of the game.
Is total time spent in an MMORPG an important factor to you?
Yes because the more time you invest into a game the more you will (Hopefully) know about the game. Now I have definitely met people in some games that have thousands of hours and still can't do their rotation correctly, or people that are at the top of the leaderboards for in game currency that have never been in a PVP match. Those people are either casuals, or Experts in only a few systems in game either by choice or lifestyle reasons. But I do generally consider that as your time in game goes up, you will have a higher propensity to be considered an Expert in more systems or just considered a Hardcore gamer.
Do you feel you're an expert in some MMORPGs or systems within them, but not in others? If so, please explain
Currently? I'm no expert in anything. I got kids and no time to play anything hardcore. I've not been keeping up with all the changes patch to patch and I've lost what I once had. XD But in Ashes I will rise again!!!!
Once upon a time I'd say I was an Expert Healer in WoW PvP, maybe an Expert PvE Healer for FFXIV ARR BcoB raids. For Pvp in WoW, I was ranked and was able to validate my "Expert" status. Walked around in my gear and people knew pretty quick. XD In FFXIV I helped write guides for my guild for the fights, Controller guides, I could explain all the mechanics, ect.
But I was no expert craftsman in either game. I never learned any other class other then what was needed for PvP. Not to mention that there was always someone that was bound to know even more then me because they played more or longer, so it's a sliding scale. The top 50% gets called experts by the bottom 50%, but the top 1% looks at everyone and sees only casuals.
A system that I would encourage you to look at is the Mentor program that FFXIV implemented. It's an in game way to register to be a mentor for a specific battle class. Not everyone that IS a mentor is a GOOD mentor of course, but it self governed over time. Implementing some system in game to register to be a mentor / Expert in certain niches of the game would be cool and would encourage people looking to learn fast to seek them out.
Respecting the Player's Time
To me, this is the first and most important aspect in this conversation. Any endeavor laid out before a player should have a clear path, and reward progression towards it within reasonable amounts of time. Many of the previews in various areas of the game already reflect something similar, with multiple paths of progression laid out for each activity. However, a progression system in a vacuum isn't the full story. The balance between time investment and reward is paramount. Too slow, and people will shy away from setting mastery of it as a goal. Too quick, and it won't feel like an accomplishment. Provided there's fun things to do at each stage, and new fun things to look forward to in the latter stages, this issue largely solves itself.
A good example of what I'm trying to describe can be found in Nightingale's crafting system. On the outside, it's quite complicated to get into. There are many moving parts, and a lot of knowledge about how the different subsystems interact is required to produce good quality gear. However, acquiring the recipes and experimenting with materials drives the player to explore and find new materials and recipes in order to craft better equipment in order to access higher tiers of resources and so on. At each stage of the process of gaining mastery, there is something new and fun to do. And each of those activities urges the player forward to pursue the next level of mastery.
Provided each system is balanced in context, what has been shown can be a solid framework to guide a player from a novice in that field to knowledgeable. Not necessarily an "Expert", but at the very least someone who understands the system enough to be "Good".
The difference between "Good" and "Expert"
There should be a distinction between a person who has completed the path of progression for an activity and someone who has mastered it. The path laid out by the game should leave most people with enough knowledge to adequately use its systems and have access to all the tools they need to be proficient in that area. However, that should not be the end of the journey. Someone willing to spend time dedicating themselves to any specific activity should also be rewarded even beyond the scope of the progression path.
To use an example, Black Desert Online's progression systems reflect this to a degree. In terms of leveling, there is no cap. A player that wants to grind EXP until their wrists fall off can do so. In terms of gear, the developers have always trickled in newer, slightly better gear to grind towards. Life skills, while I feel they disrespect the player's time for how long they take, have their own set of gear progression that rewards the player by making them more profitable.
Further, "Expertise" is expressed incredibly well in BDO. PvP is largely skill expression in gear capped environments. A player knowledgeable about their class and their opponent's class will have a sizable advantage over a player that only knows their own. Similarly, those with raw mechanical skill are rewarded by executing their combos more quickly, being able to dodge skills more often, or being able to exploit the gaps in a class's defense. Even in lifeskilling, a player with knowledge of the market, the different subsystems, and secrets of the game will have a decided edge when it comes to crafting and profiting.
This distinction is important because the players that naturally excel will be a source of inspiration for those that are not as fast or enter the game later. A player that sees another skilled player performing insanely well in arenas will naturally want to aspire towards that. Looking at the leader boards, players will want to compete to get there. And simply getting to the end of a skill tree should not be "there". Depth, mystery, knowledge, expression, practice, discovery, and a bit of grinding should all matter when it comes to going from "Good" to "Expert" in any field.
Setting Goals
Pretty much any effort to do anything can be boiled down to the setting of a goal. Once that effort is finished, the person can then evaluate if they met that goal, and whether or not they are satisfied with it. Within the context of a game, there are two primary categories that they can be divided into: Goals set by the game, and those set by the player. You, Intrepid, have control over the former, but not necessarily over the latter.
To tie all of this together, the game-set goal would be a progression system generated by the game and the player-set goal would be the aspiration of what they personally want to achieve within that system. Whether or not they thought that investment was worth it or not is a factor of time, reward, and the desire to set another goal within the same activity. Was the journey "fun"? Were you able to get "there"? What new goals did you see over the horizon when you stopped? Do you want to stet a new goal?
The game-set progression tree to get players started part of this has already been explained, but there's another important part I haven't discussed yet: How do you inspire players to seek new achievements at the end of the progression tree? There are a few ways that I've seen that do a good job of doing this. Each method is basically a different way to showcase what "Experts" are doing in some capacity to all players. A novice or good player will need to see the difference between themselves and players at the top in order to even know it's out there.
Encouraging Goals
The obvious and simplest answer is streaming, the most common and direct way to experience this. Watching another skilled player directly is by far the most effective way, but that's outside of the game's control. While you should encourage streaming, what are some ways Ashes can do this within the game? A few ideas would be spectating PvP. Allowing a player to watch sieges, battelground matches, and arena fights would be enough to showcase skilled players and give players that "something" over the horizon.
Announcing great achievements to the whole server is another way to spur players on. Declaring to the whole world that a player has found a new secret recipe, crafted a legendary sword, discovered a dungeon, a guild was the first to take down a boss, Team X has won the PvP tournament, or Node A has conquered Node B. Exposing other players' feats is a great way both showcase what can be done beyond the skill tree, and motivate players to earn recognition of their own.
Last but not least, being able to see what you can get at end game. One of the things I remember doing way back in vanilla World of Warcraft was looking at the auction house and seeing all of the end game gear you could buy. I loved seeing all the end game crafted materials and how much money you could make doing it. It inspired me to look into how I could get there, what process did I need to go through, what materials did I need to find, and where did I need to go to get them. While the marketplace in Ashes will not be completely visible across the whole world, a simple compendium/wiki in game could also serve this function. Showing the basic recipes, known drops of bosses, and places to farm basic materials would be very helpful in exposing players to what they can look forward to.
The Final Brick on This Wall of Text
To summarize this novel:
I'd like to close out by saying that the most important part of all of this is fun, rather than expertise. Yes, acquiring mastery in something can be fun in and of itself. However, if that mastery is locked behind a few hundred hours of grinding the same content over and over it quickly sours the achievement. A reasonable, achievable challenge is fun. A .01% drop rate is not fun. Requiring players to grind 10,000 mobs is also not fun. When trying to factor time into progress, always ask whether or not the reward is worth it and the challenge to do so is fun.
Player with a best gear and high rating in PvP (arena) that could beat you with green items if wanted to...
...but he doesn't have time for you, because raid starts in few minutes. You are not even worthy of a duel.
What are the differences you see in casual vs expert-level play on a day-to-day basis in your favorite MMORPGs?
I am not playing my favorite MMO anymore for a while now. Catch up mechanics ruined it, so I can't really answer this.
Sometimes I play GW2 too, where I log in, mow down people with my Elementalist after not playing it for six months and call it a day.
Is total time spent in an MMORPG an important factor to you?
Yes.
I don't wanna catch up to a dedicated player in a few days. Especially not to PVErs.
PvP is very nuanced issue. My personal take is that If I am good at arena and I am beating epic geared players with my greens, my rating should go up faster and so do my points.
Open world PVP is a whole different story. Killing max level greens in open world shouldn't have the same ruleset or rewards as arena.
Do you feel you're an expert in some MMORPGs or systems within them, but not in others? If so, please explain.
I was one of the first Brutal Gladiators (pvp title) on my server during TBC, but if you were to send me of to WC ( low level dungeon) I would die like 7 times.
I simply suck at PvE in any MMORPG.
This has nothing to do with time played within the game. This comes down to knowledge of the game. I often considered myself casual. However I do a lot of offline researching, thinking and general conversing which makes me more expert or hardcore than I would like to admit.
What are the differences you see in casual vs expert-level play on a day-to-day basis in your favorite MMORPGs?
That entirely depends on what the game systems can give a player on a day to day basis. Short term or long term goals.
Is total time spent in an MMORPG an important factor to you?
No. How time is spent is important.
Do you feel you're an expert in some MMORPGs or systems within them, but not in others? If so, please explain
Yes and this is normal. In my case I do not PvP regularly but I do craft. I will have more expertise as a crafter than in PvP combat.
To me, expertise in a MMO context is a mix of acquired knowledge and mastery of skills uses and game systems.
I'm sorry to say, but the whole progression aspect (level and gear) often feels more like hurdles to slow the mastering process than anything else. Becoming competent with a new combat skill doesn't take that long. Learning how to integrate it with those you already have takes a bit more time, and, as you gain more skill, you'll keep having to juggle them. But it's not until you get them all that you can truly start to master them as a whole. That's why I say artificial progression slows the process. To some, getting over a hurdle feels like an achievement, to me it's only one less annoyance to go through.
I'm probably not one to answer this anyway, lack of interest for all things exclusive, brag worthy or "prestigious". More interested in fun while playing than long term goals, or goals in general.
time spent playing =/= better player. I met plenty of people who played LoL for almost 10 years (with close to a thousand ranked games per season) who can barely make it out of silver, and then I met people who played for less than a couple of months who made it into gold with ease.
So to answer the question of "how long it takes to become an expert" is impossible. For some people it might not take very long at all, and some will never become an expert even if they sink maybe thousands of hours into the game. Some people can die to the same boss mechanics over and over, while another player dies once to it before learning how to handle the mechanic.
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"Expert" and "Casual" can be subjective terms. What does being an expert or a casual mean to you?
- A casual player to me is a person who plays the game without taking it too seriously. They can put endless amounts of time to the game, but they do so with minimal effort. They want to enjoy the game and that is it. The opposite of a casual is a hardcore player, who has a very clear goal ahead of them and they are willing to put down both time and effort to maximize their game time to achieve best possible results and time efficiency.
An expert is a player who has vast knowledge about something - either through experience or research. They can answer a concrete question, often with great detail and reasoning. Both casuals and hardcore players can be experts, but usually at different things. A casual can be an expert on lore or certain crafting professions while hardcore players usually are experts on their classes and game mechanics.
What are the differences you see in casual vs expert-level play on a day-to-day basis in your favorite MMORPGs?
Is total time spent in an MMORPG an important factor to you?
- A casual does not ponder too much about how or why they do something, they just do it because they enjoy it. And as stated, they can still be experts at it. A hardcore player has already thought of a route which they are following to maximize their game time.
Time spent playing is generally not important to me. If I am looking for players for a more difficult activity then the most important factors would be mindset and availability (which is time-related, but not the same as "have you played for X hours?").
Do you feel you're an expert in some MMORPGs or systems within them, but not in others? If so, please explain
- I have been an expert in some elements of MMOs. I played the same class for more than 15 years and been ranked as EU top 10 on multiple occasions - I could always maximize each spec to perform at top level regardless of its current ranking, and I could tell you all about their synergies with other classes.... However, put me on any other class - save a selected few - and Id be performing like a total greenie. And when I was raiding I could tell you with a Power Point presentation what all boss abilities were, how we should handle them and why we should handle them that way. In m+ I could tell you in great detail why I'd bring certain talents based on dungeon, weekly augments and group setup. When I was doing competitive RBGs (defender duty) I could tell you exactly which classes I would fight and how I would fight them, and which classes I'd simply survive until help arrived.
In GW2 I've never really been an expert. I never cared to get addons, min-maxing my gear for optimal fractuals, get bis consumables nor designed a schedule to make the most of my time. I did what I felt like doing most of the time with the build I enjoyed the most and whatever consumables felt affordable. And that was more than enough to achieve acceptable performance for our casual community.